Is the witness this horrible pain in the middle of the head?

Hi all, currently in Dark Night, sometimes equanimity (feels more like indifference), suffering like a dog!

I have this constant pain/tension in the middle of the brain. It flutters, it vibrates, it pushes and pulls. It seems to feed on itself, pulsating like hell, each pulse calling on to the next, in a fast paced frenzy. It hurts!!! The first time I stopped it for a while, I got stream entry. Now it's back, and seems stronger!

Whenever I work directly with this sensation, the feeling of tension and pain condenses into a very very tight ball. I've done this a few times, and I always have horrible side effects from doing it (the pain increases, the tension becomes more frenetic, kundalini fires up uncomfortably). I think "maybe it's because I try too hard to make it stop, and this 'me' trying hard powers it up." Sometimes I think "why am I focusing on this anyway?"

But, whenever I ask myself "who am I," I always end up in this sensation, so I've always taken "focusing on the witness" as working with this sensation. But maybe it's just a stupid thing to do... It is really uncomfortable and painful, I'd love to get rid of it ...

Does that make sense to anyone else? I mean, does anyone feel their "I sense" in the middle of the head, as a painful pulsating thing?

Hi Bruno

Third eye head aches and the dreaded iron skull cap were fairly common for me for the past 3 or 4 months while navigating the confusing 2nd path. Check my notes for some of the advice others gave me. Sounds like you are going through the same thing. Do you use the noting technique? I stopped noting after stream entry but having passed through some crappy dark nights I got directed back to doing noting by some wise people here. It made it easy to navigate the dark night and I would even say make it pass quicker. When you say you would "love to get rid of it", it sounds like you are deeply embedded in that experience. Note it like there was no tomorrow and disembed from it. You seem to be making yourSELF suffer more than it needs to...which is not at all if you are noting continuously. My sense of "self" seems to be at the back of the head, but these day it is a hint of what it was at stream entry. But no pain these days. But a couple of months ago I had some real bad episodes of kundalini induced pain in the third eye and crown chakras.Check my notes for more details for what I went through. Maybe it will give you an idea of what to do. I also write about the Witness practice I do. It could help you.

kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/thread/36...lai's+Practice+Notes

I hope you are able to get some relief soon,

Nick

Hi Bruno,

No, the Witness is not that pain. The Witness is the apparent knower of that pain; it's just the sense of "I" or "I am." The pain you are talking about is one of the many fascinating things that happen as the kundalini energy develops and works its way through the body. It will eventually work itself out and after that it will flow in a stable circuit. Don't worry too much about it. Your job is not to get rid of it or manipulate it in any way. All you have to do is see it clearly (objectify it) in real time. It's the objectification that does the work. See if you can also note the mind's tendency to turn everything into a drama. It's fun to make up stories about what is happening as you go through this process. No problem, just note the interest, fear, confusion, curiosity, wonder, annoyance, aversion, greed, self-congratulation, self-loathing, worry, dullness, anxiety, impatience, evaluation, judgement, triumph, despair, etc. All of that is grist for the mill. Become the world's foremost authority on the moment-by-moment workings of BrunoLoff's mind. Every time you note something, whether it is a physical sensation, a feeling-tone (pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral), a mind-state, a thought, or any other phenomenon or lack of phenomena, you are putting a bit of stuff in the hopper... and every bit of stuff you put in the hopper becomes fuel for your awakening. Put your sense of self in the hopper too; it's just a big vortex of stuff going into the hopper. Note, disembed, wake up. Simple!

The pain is related to the sense of "I", but it is not related to the witness. You are learning to steadily objectify the current stronghold of "I", and it is being seen through. Is there any wonder that this causes pain to... "I"?

"No, the Witness is not that pain. The Witness is the apparent knower of that pain; it's just the sense of "I" or "I am." "

Hmm, but to me it feels that the "I" is that sensation in the middle of the head. It is the only sensical answer to the question "who am I" that comes up (I answer, "well, I am ME of course," and that area gets a little excited). If anything is preventing the "seeing" from being "just seeing," it seems to be that! From there arises a "subtle echo" of things perceived, which is quite annoying and gets in the way. From there arises all the obsessive mind chatter.

However you seem to be talking about something else. I do have the following sometimes: the sensation of "knowing." It's not that there is a knower per se, but more like a feeling of "knowing". It is what is missing if I am distracted or dull (e.g. in those semi conscious states between sleep). It is what is there when I really understand things,. I think it is somehow connected to the crown area, but I am not sure. Is this the witness?

Since all of you recommend noting, I will start systematically dealing with suffering that way. Thanks!

overmyhead: yes I found it quite incredible when I first concluded that the sense of I was not just "inconvenient," but actually very painful. That is actually how I explain buddhism to people around me.

Knowing is not the witness either. Pure knowing would be one interpretation of 3rd gear, I think.

There is a big difference between "I" and "me". The witness has to do with "I", but has nothing to do with "me". The witness is like pure subjectivity. The stream of consciousness is usually something like: I, this, I, that, him, her, that, I, this, that, etc. The stream of consciousness during the witness is more like: I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, etc.

"Knowing is not the witness either. Pure knowing would be one interpretation of 3rd gear, I think.

There is a big difference between "I" and "me". The witness has to do with "I", but has nothing to do with "me". The witness is like pure subjectivity. The stream of consciousness is usually something like: I, this, I, that, him, her, that, I, this, that, etc. The stream of consciousness during the witness is more like: I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, etc."

Nice explanation, overmyhead. I would concur!

I suspect this is what abhidhamma refers to as mind-consciousness, and it's something you're supposed to note as "mind" if you're noting mind and body. Of course, being in a dark night, you're beyond mind and body. So I guess you should note how the echo disappears every time it arises, since you're already aware of its dukkha. You can also notice how there's no way it's a self since it's not even there much of the time.

Of course, that's all 1st gear instructions, and you asked about doing 2nd gear. Can you get to the 6th jhana? For example, by reviewing 1st path's Equanimity stage, solidifying it into 4th shamatha jhana, and going up from there while avoiding fruition. The object of the 6th jhana is the Witness if I understand it correctly. If I'm giving misinformation, then I'm sure it should get corrected soon.

If you can't get to the 6th jhana, you could just go to the boundless consciousness aspect of any jhana. Using Daniel's jhana-subjhana scheme: jhana 1.6, 2.6, 3.6... The quality which differentiates J.6 from J.5 is the shift of focus away from spatial perception towards the Witness, and what differentiates J.6 from J.7 is that the Witness is no longer predominant in J.7. I think. This is kind of being made up on the spot here, but I've gotten good results with doing that in the past. So it might work. =)

"Hmm, but to me it feels that the "I" is that sensation in the middle of the head. It is the only sensical answer to the question "who am I" that comes up (I answer, "well, I am ME of course," and that area gets a little excited). If anything is preventing the "seeing" from being "just seeing," it seems to be that! From there arises a "subtle echo" of things perceived, which is quite annoying and gets in the way. From there arises all the obsessive mind chatter."

Hi Bruno,

Believe or not, I think I know exactly what you're talking about. I went through I stage where self-enquiry always made its way to the third-eye location. It's like the kundalini/chi/qi energy has trouble getting past this point, and so it gets jammed up there. This actually creates a very defined center-point or self-spot. When it's not causing pain, it's actually quite fascinating and pleasant - at least it was for me.

I remember the exact moment when this energy was allowed to dissipate. It was as if I light went out in the third-eye area, and it never returned. When it happened, I was convinced that I had attained fourth path, due to all the talk about dissolving the center-point or what have you. I can say with certainty now that it was not the fourth path event. It was a big one, however.

Continue to inquire, put also continue to note what becomes clear within your experience. Pay attention to what's going on, and eventually the energy will break up whatever is blocking it into that area. That is, if what you're going through is anything like what I went through.

Best of luck!

Jackson

overmyhead: it's strange that I can't really classify any perception that comes up, that I can see clearly, as "me," other than this horrible thing in the middle of the head. It does work exactly as you describe though: my attention is on some object, then the middle of the head pulsates or hurts or whatever and attention goes there, then object, and so on, very quickly.

I can't really go through the jhanas in any reliable and stable way. There was a point when I could get as far as fifth jhana, but I wasn't meditating then because A&P was too intense and I was having all the bliss I could handle.

JAdamG: "So I guess you should note how the echo disappears every time it arises, since you're already aware of its dukkha."
Yes, I can do this, and when it works it makes for fairly interesting meditation. What I do is I try to get "silence," including mental chatter and mental echo.

But any kind of meditation other than paying attention to this block is very hard, so I usually end up working with it, regardless of what I decide to do when I begin meditating.

Jackson, this does seem to be related to the ajna chakra, but its place inside the head, rather than the forehead. For me it is never pleasant. Sometimes I get bliss, but then I get it in the forehead and crown. Thanks for the feedback.

Meditating on this place usually caused it to throb mor painfully, so in today's sit I decided I would pay attention in a slightly different way. Instead of trying to understand the block moment by moment, I just rested my attention on it gently and diffusely, with a relaxed frame of mind. That seemed to do some dissolving, without making it worst.

I'll do that for a few days and let you know.

Thanks for all the suggestions.

JAdamG,

6th jhana is not quite the witness, although it is particularly easy to transition into the witness from 6th jhana.

Bruno,

Another way to think of the whole "I" thing is to investigate where the mind's base of operations is. That is, where does the mind keep returning to before it moves to other objects, and how is this related to the impression that someone or something is doing the watching? Whether or not your mind uses the label "I" is not relevant.

Like Jackson, I can sympathize with your experience. I had a pretty bad headache for a few weeks on both sides of my head, although it also sometimes manifested in the middle of my head. They felt like trapped balls of energy.

"Jackson, this does seem to be related to the ajna chakra, but its place inside the head, rather than the forehead. For me it is never pleasant. Sometimes I get bliss, but then I get it in the forehead and crown. Thanks for the feedback."

Hi Bruno,

I know what you mean about it being "inside the head". I'm no kundalini yoga expert, but area inside the head seems roughly correlated to the third-eye level (especially since the location/concentration of the ajna area seems to move forward or backward depending on whether one's eyes are opened or closed). When the inside-the-head tension was finally able to untie itself, that whole third eye level was clear through and through. So yeah, it's possible that we're talking apples and oranges here, but I don't think that is the case. Time will tell.

Again, best of luck to you. I hope you can get some relief, and soon.

Jackson

Thanks y'all.

Yeah Jackson there is clearly a connection. That part seems to connect both to the brow region and to the crown. Then the brow region connect down through the sinuses and mount/tongue to the throat, while the crown connects through the temples through the jaws into the throat. Then from the throat to the chest and so on. This front part is called the conceptual vessel in taoism.

I am guessing that when kenneth talks of a connection between crown and heart he means this one (crown -> temples -> jaws -> throat -> heart), but there might be some other wire I can't feel yet, maybe inside the spine (?).

The central channel (sushumna) is supposed to be located in the spinal column. The middle of the head connects to the crown, and also to the frontal pathway that goes from the brow down the vocal tract and so on as you mentioned, and also to the central channel in the rear. In fact, the circuit is supposed to go up the central channel, through the middle of the head, up to the crown. Then it either goes back down the central channel, or it goes down the frontal pathway. At least, that's my understanding.

If I remember correctly from the DhO, you experienced a lot of benefit from AYP. Have you looked into any of their practices for dealing with problems in this area, or perhaps any of the Tibetan practices that deal with dissolving energies into the central channel?

well, actually AYP seems like a too powerful practice, it is easy for things to get out of hand, causing too much ecstasy, which prevents me from doing anything else. Since I actually have a PhD to work on, I've decided to do practice that emphasizes concentration instead of energetic development. I guess I'll return to AYP at some point in life...

Their practices are not location-specific, at all, you basically just work on removing blocks using mantra and develop the central channel using spinal breathing.

Hi Bruno,

I also know very well what you are talking about. It's painful. It's annoying. It sucks. And the witness is that which is aware of this fact.

The bad news is that we can't do anything to fix it. The more we try to solve the problem and the worse it gets. We just have to accept the fact that the energy body is going through a natural and often painful process of transformation. The only that helps -and your already know that- is to leave all forms of energy practices for a while and focus on blissful sensations during soft samatha jhana practice.

The good news is that one day (I hope very soon) something will click. The pain will disappear, blissful energy will eventually start to rise up spontaneously through the spine and the witness will naturally start to collapse. Then, the sense of being located somewhere inside the head will also dissolve to a point where, even if the sense of self keeps rising '“and it's then more like an impersonal sense of existence at this stage-, we cannot really locate a center of consciousness anywhere inside or outside the body.

"we got it too and it's gonna go away" was really what I was looking forward to hear thanks

I actually can already envision somewhat, what it might mean for this pain to go away. If I concentrate a little, the pain will occasionally become so faint that in very brief moments there is only the seen, the heard, etc. My soft samatha practice is going great, the pain is relieving. I'll let you know how it goes.

It is interesting that if I try to do hard jhana, or apply intent effort, the pain increases. I think I will remember the following hint for insight practice: if one kind of attention (soft/hard, global/local) doesn't work, try something else!

"
The good news is that one day (I hope very soon) something will click. The pain will disappear, blissful energy will eventually start to rise up spontaneously through the spine and the witness will naturally start to collapse. Then, the sense of being located somewhere inside the head will also dissolve to a point where, even if the sense of self keeps rising '“and it's then more like an impersonal sense of existence at this stage-, we cannot really locate a center of consciousness anywhere inside or outside the body.
"

Wow, this is my experience, Alex. As I dwell in the Witness these days, I get so many blissful vibrations shooting up the back up to the crown. It also happens when i note continuously. And it is also my experience that the sense of being has been dissolving, less of a prominent sense of "Self". Alex, could you say a bit more about the blissful energy and it's relationship to enlightenment?

If we find that a practice is causing this blissful energy to rise quickly, should we continue to do so? Is this the mechanism to "complete the circuit" as Kenneth says?

Hi Nikolai,

As far as I can tell, it is not directly related to enlightenment (at least not to what Kenneth called timeless realization). The event of enlightenment was like waking up from a long amnesia knowing that nothing ever happened, that the seeker is the sought, that what I am and have always been is this absolute no-thing-ness, the unconditioned, the unborn source of all things that manifests as the sense of presence (or the I AM). It led to what we could call abiding non-dual awareness (difficult to describe, but more or less like a kind of spontaneous natural state similar to the witness, but effortless and all inclusive).

When the kundalini rises, it feels like a warm liquid rising up the spine. When it reaches the head space, it may trigger a form of orgasmic bliss that can go on for 20 minutes or more. The body may shake a bit. It is clearly related to the first and second jhanas as well as with the insight knowledge of A&P, but is can be very intense. Sometimes it may be cooler and softer. If I want to trigger it, I focus on the chakras in turn starting from the root chakra up. When I feel all chakra pulsing with energy, I unite prana and apana behind the navel and hold my breath as long as I can (this hatha yoga practice is also called vase breathing in Vajrayana). I then drop the energy on the root chakra, perform vajroli mudra, moolabandha and udhyana bandha in turn, bring the energy to the head space and above through the crown chakra with shambhavi mudra on a long exhale. I then relax and allow the energy to take over. I then feel it rising and the body starts shaking, taken away by the bliss (it feels pretty much like a strong and very long orgasm, hence its connection with tantra vidya). What I do is then to mix it with pure awareness. That's, I suppose, what they call the union of emptiness and bliss in Vajrayana. I then bring it down to the heart and feel a form of unconditional love.

Nice, Alex!

"If I want to trigger it, I focus on the chakras in turn starting from the root chakra up. When I feel all chakra pulsing with energy, I unite prana and apana behind the navel and hold my breath as long as I can (this hatha yoga practice is also called vase breathing in Vajrayana). I then drop the energy on the root chakra, perform vajroli mudra, moolabandha and udhyana bandha in turn, bring the energy to the head space and above through the crown chakra with shambhavi mudra on a long exhale. I then relax and allow the energy to take over. I then feel it rising and the body starts shaking, taken away by the bliss (it feels pretty much like a strong and very long orgasm, hence its connection with tantra vidya). What I do is then to mix it with pure awareness. That's, I suppose, what they call the union of emptiness and bliss in Vajrayana. I then bring it down to the heart and feel a form of unconditional love.
"

I have had a very similar experience praticing gtummo (Nyingma tradition) except via the central channel. By warming the liquid (drops) in the central channel was followed by an incredible explosion of a wild energy that could only be described as a full body orgasm and white out that went on for at least a half an hour, this also uses vase breathing. A great description Alex.

"It is interesting that if I try to do hard jhana, or apply intent effort, the pain increases. I think I will remember the following hint for insight practice: if one kind of attention (soft/hard, global/local) doesn't work, try something else!"

Absolutely. Jhana meditation anywhere near my head was excruciating when I went through this. You might be able to avoid the pain by bringing the focus into the abdomen.

"As far as I can tell, it is not directly related to enlightenment (at least not to what Kenneth called timeless realization)."

The head pains have something to do with "completing the circuit", as Kenneth says. Jackson says that the dissipation is not 4th path and I agree, but I do think it is somehow important.

@Jeff - Nice! Yes, gTummo is basically the same thing.

@overmyhead - you are right. It seems that the direct timeless realization of Dzogchen, Advaita Vedanta or Zen is as such independent from any energy work, but that is somehow doesn't stick as a permanent state until something clicks on the energetic level. But this is very difficult to understand.

It is just great to se that we have so many great yogis on the forum. We should gradually be able to clarify some of these issues together.