Is the witness this horrible pain in the middle of the head?

One last comment for Bruno in regard to his question to Kenneth about Daniel and AF -- being an arahat does not magically make one a genius or a sage. If an arahat is dabbling in AF it might mean they're curious, or that they're humoring friends, or responding to a challenge or a bet, or any of hundreds of motives. They also might simply be mistaken. As you all should know, every single human being is capable of making mistakes

"My own way of expressing this is to say that our goal (an attainable and realistic goal in my experience) is "freedom in heaven, freedom in hell." Rather than cultivate any particular kind of experience, e.g. "pleasant" or "easeful," we simply allow reality to manifest itself according to conditions, without manipulation. When even "I" am seen as just another phenomenon arising within awareness, the problem is solved; the result is a happiness that is independent of conditions.

Kenneth"


I agree with Chris and thank Kenneth for expressing so well what we are after on this forum.
Since we've mentioned Mahamudra, its essence is summerized by three Sanskrit words that also express very well the essence of what awakening is all about, namely:

Pratibha: realization of our true nature, awakening to the truth
Sahaja: naturalness, effortlessness
Samarasa: one taste, freedom, non-grasping

One taste means that everything is seen as a display of awareness within awareness. Positive emotions, negative emotions, blissful kundalini experiences, horrible nightmares, thoughts, no-thoughts, heaven or hell, everything is just a display of primoridal awareness, everything has one taste.

And the the taste of this one taste is a happiness that is independent of conditions. Freedom from, but also freedom to experience the widest range of human emotions.

Um, one more thing, and sorry for being a bore this morning but Bruno is offering up some softballs that I can't resist:

"Basically it seems that the more I see how my own internal processes work, the closer I get to concluding this AF thing makes some sense." -- Bruno

You can't escape what you are but you can accept and even revel in the boundless glory of what you are. You are infinite, and you are the universe, and you are beautiful. When we first examine our minds closely we tend to recoil. It's ugly in there! We're full of superstition, hatred, greed, anger, lust, and all manner of bad stuff. Of course, we're also full of joy, love, beauty, truth and compassion. We're both ugly and beautiful (assuming we must pass judgement on ourselves, which is another topic entirely) and everything, all at once. So Bruno, if you really want to escape through AF then go for it, but you will be escaping yourself, and your humanity, and just as you're on the cusp of being Awake. I choose Awake because it's worth all the time and the effort and the ugly and the beautiful.

If you cut yourself off from the bad you will cut yourself off from the good. You simply cannot have it both ways, my friend.

Thank you for your words, they give some balance to what has been going on.

Alex, you have any texts specifically mentioning that the final state of mahamudra is in any way emotional? In "pointing out the great way" it is mentioned that the practitioner is constantly immersed in great bliss. Also I thought one-taste meant that everything is seen once without any grasping or resistance.

Anyway, I'm working towards improving my concentration and attaining arhatship. Concentration seems to be the most valuable mental resource one can have, and it seems that the progress of insight has no way to slow down anyway...

Hi Bruno,

Unfortunately, I don't have time to look for references here, but best is to always go back to the earlier sources like Tilopa's Song of Mahamudra. Indians and Tibetans commentators tend to exaggerate a bit, making things more complicated and mysterious than they really are. But Mahamudra crazy wisdom is just impossible without strong emotions. early Ch'an/Zen, Mahamudra, Dzogchen or Kashmir Shaivism are all about allowing everything to be as it is. Thoughts and emotions rise and fall within Natural Awareness. Here the path is the fruit. That's 3rd Gear practice, that's what awakening is all about.

Getting back to the main subject of the thread, I am very happy to hear that the soft approach is working. I used to be too tense, which often became a cause of tension causing headackes. Self-inquiry can be soft and open. We don't even have to ask the question (who am I?). We can just be the question. And the question itself provides the answer.

OK, but in any case I think we agree to the following: with 2000+ years of meditation research, it is CERTAINLY the case that people from various traditions have come across a "pure consciousness experience" and stabilized it in the way the actual freedom people have. I think it would be valuable to know how it integrates with the rest of the traditions.

Also, Richard of the AF cult sounds quite crazy quite often (just read some of his stuff)...

"I think it would be valuable to know how it integrates with the rest of the traditions.
"

Well then Bruno, if it seems valuable to you, I think the only way you would be able to come up with a conclusion which will satisfy you is to attain arahatship, then some PCEs and then figure out how you personally think it fits.
Will a second-hand answer satisfy your search for truth? I sincerely doubt it.

How can you know what the Mahamudra people were talking about? How can you know what Daniel, Trent, Tarin, Richard, and so on, are talking about? There's no way to figure it out via the intellect and thought.
I think a very important value of this community is that it is practice-oriented. I see no practical value in trying to figure out intellectually how some state someone reported fits into some theory another person came up with. But I'd love to hear your opinion once its based on actual experience of these states.

Yes adidb, but this AF condition seems to be irreversible, just like arahatship is.

On the other hand, I actually believe my practice has gained tremendously from having the correct intelectual understanding, and suffered when this understanding wasn't completely there. For instance I went from never having meditated to stream entry in eight and a half months, simply because I had an approximately correct understanding of what I wanted to get, and how to get it. Compare with all the people who go to retreats for years before stream entry, simply because they follow some sort of vague direction to "just be in the moment" or something like that.

Knowing what it is and how it works is also a way of avoiding it if we think we should. For instance, I have the intelectual understanding that if I throw myself from the tenth floor, I will surely die, so I avoid ledges etc. A second-hand answer certainly satisfies my search for the truth.

"but this AF condition seems to be irreversible, just like arahatship is."

But it seems just to the contrary. It seems as if one would have to put in effort in order to make this into a permanent state, doesn't seem like it happens on its own.

I certainly didn't mean to say that intellectual understanding is useless in all cases, what I meant to say is that in this particular case, I see no practical benefit which will be gained by analyzing someone else's experience and trying to fit that into some model.

If you were trying to achieve this AF state, then that would be a different story, and then some theoretical understanding would be useful probably.

And also I think your analogy doesn't apply here, since we are not talking about jumping from windows, but rather about subjective mental experiences which are hard to analyze without personal experience of them (unlike jumping from the window which leads to death).

Bruno, I respect your quest for information on this but I just don't think it belongs here

edited to add: But who cares what I think

I must add one last thing to this matter:
During a retreat I sat with Christopher Titmuss several months ago, I asked about the dogma in which 'an arahat would not feel any negative emotions',
To my question, Christopher replied: 'That should not be ruled out, as it does happen that those negative emotions become an unknown in the inner life', or something along the lines of that,
well, I should have asked what about the rest