Is the witness this horrible pain in the middle of the head?

Interesting you mention this. Lately I have the growing suspicion that the "final state" of dzogchen and mahamudra ("the way the realized mind stays") is the same thing that the Actual Freedom people talk about. They share at least two things in common, (1) a permanent state of perfect sensory clarity (2) the (permanent) sensation that there is no time except the present.

" It seems that the direct timeless realization of Dzogchen, Advaita Vedanta or Zen is as such independent from any energy work, but that is somehow doesn't stick as a permanent state until something clicks on the energetic level. But this is very difficult to understand." -- Alex

That's my experience of it, too. Talking to Kenneth last night he suggested to me that we may really be faced with three separate and distinct realizations, and AugustLeo has proposed that we use different terms for each one: the completion of the physio-energetic path of first gear, the Advaita, "I Am That" realization of second gear and thedirect, non-dual awareness of third gear. I think I agree with this way of approaching the issue, as they all do appear to me as different realizations and contribute to an overall "something I cannot explain" when combined.

Does that make sense to anyone else?

BTW - sorry I missed the question about pain in the head, and yeah, it's awful but you just have to suck it up and deal with it.

That's a very interesting perspective! How do you think AF fits in these three things? (maybe we could fork the thread...)

AF =Absolute Freedom?

yep do fork the thread for AF(ActualFreedom)...

"Interesting you mention this. Lately I have the growing suspicion that the "final state" of dzogchen and mahamudra ("the way the realized mind stays") is the same thing that the Actual Freedom people talk about. They share at least two things in common, (1) a permanent state of perfect sensory clarity (2) the (permanent) sensation that there is no time except the present."

I don't know much about Actual Freedom, but my first reaction when it '˜clicked' as a permanent state was to discover what I can only call the natural state. This is precisely what Dzogchen and Mahmudra is talking about. Ramana Maharishi also called it the natural state (Skt. Sahaja Stiti). If you have practiced Shikantaza or the non-meditation of Mahamudra, this is exactly how it feels, but it becomes a continuous default state during everyday life. Since thoughts don't stick as they used to, there is clarity as well as a sense of flow '˜in the now'. The difference with Actual Freedom '“as I understand it- is that everything is seen or understood as being a display of awareness, while AF seems to be more materialist and realist (philosophically speaking).
I could add that there is a sense of completeness and stillness: everything is just fine as it is. The love or joy people talk about seems to be related to the acceptance of things and people as they are.

What Alex said.

"Lately I have the growing suspicion that the "final state" of dzogchen and mahamudra ("the way the realized mind stays") is the same thing that the Actual Freedom people talk about."-BrunoLoff

I recently had a conversation with a man who claims to have attained Actual Freedom. According to him, it is not at all the same as awakening, self-realization, or enlightenment. While awakening is dynamic and inclusive, Actual Freedom is a conditioned state of "ongoing ease." From the Buddhist point of view, it is a complete non-starter. In other words, it is analogous to being reborn in a heavenly realm that is consistently pleasant, an idea that was dispensed with very early in Buddhism. My own way of expressing this is to say that our goal (an attainable and realistic goal in my experience) is "freedom in heaven, freedom in hell." Rather than cultivate any particular kind of experience, e.g. "pleasant" or "easeful," we simply allow reality to manifest itself according to conditions, without manipulation. When even "I" am seen as just another phenomenon arising within awareness, the problem is solved; the result is a happiness that is independent of conditions.

I believe that Actual Freedom will be forgotten by history or remembered by scholars as just one of the many cul-de-sacs and red herrings that spiritual seekers get involved with. We will do better to stick with techniques that have a long track record of bringing freedom to human beings who are willing to practice them sincerely.

With that in mind, I would prefer that we not dedicate a lot of space to the discussion of Actual Freedom, in the same way that we don't much discuss Christianity or The Cult of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Interesting yes, valuable, possibly, but outside the scope of our mission.

Thanks,

Kenneth

Well sure, but the two books I (partially) read about the mahamudra tradition specify techniques for actively cultivating a permanent state of bliss (which is one of the features of "the way the mind stays" in mahamudra). Concentration practice is aimed at actively manipulating experience. Just in this thread alex described an inner fire practice to produce feelings of ecstasy. etc

Also the AF cult is in no way comparable to christianity or the Church of the FSM. Here we are talking about people who describe a specific mental procedure to cause a specific mental change, rather than people who merely repeat some dogmatic discourse which they don't understand.

This AF condition thing seems to eliminate all affective moods, like you said, in exchange for "ongoing ease." Now, that this is even possible scares me as hell, particularly the idea that I might get more than what I've bargained for. Particularly, AF contradicts the comforting belief that "you just meditate and you are sure to end up in the same place everyone does."

But what the AF people are doing is certainly not new, after all we have 2000+ years of meditation research in multiple traditions --- the idea (fomented by the AF cult) that what they have come across is a "new path" is not only absurd but classifies as borderline mania.

Some questions come to my mind: could it be that AF is just the complete opening of the visudda chakra? Could it be that if one develops energy practices too far (e.g., doing the practice alex mentioned every day) this will eventually pass a certain threshold and leave one in this AF condition (which has been described as "the ultimate bliss-out")? etc...

I would think it is a worthwhile goal to actually pin down what happens in this AF transformation, in the framework of some established theory such as yoga or theravada. Your call, of course

Bruno

It might not be clear to everyone why I mentioned the throat chakra (Visuddha, which means "purity"). I have read the following about the visuddha chakra: "[by working with the visuddha chakra... ] The distracting nature of the world, the senses, and the mind ceases to be a problem. Supreme reasoning overcomes the elements and the emotions of the heart." Also, the AF cult leader, Richard, reports that prior to loosing his affective abilities, he felt a "release" in the neck region.

What would be gained by making love to all these theories about AF?
If you want to do AF, do it and then please tell us how you think it conforms to these theories.
The two people I've seen talking about this on DhO claimed to have gotten arahatship before they went on to do this, so why not make a resolution to not entertain and make love to any theories about AF until after you finish with the developmental insight work?
Really seems like a waste of time to talk about it without knowing it. Would pinning this AF thing in the framework of some theory get rid of your third eye dark night pain?
"Any moment you make love to concepts is a moment you could have been doing the practice which leads to developmental enlightenment", and gotten rid of your third eye headache!

I suspect that AF is something like being constantly absorbed in pure-land jhana. It is telling that people who have attained AF report the loss of ability to attain jhana, or to even detect consciousness waves. From the descriptions, it sounds like the goal is to smooth out consciousness as much as possible, so that it flows like one endless rolling wave, so life is simplified to a endless wave of pleasure. It reeks of nihilism to me. Happiness at the expense of Truth. I think that this path is not at all uncommon.

If you can be free and able to just be with your experience no matter what, and believe me you CAN be that, then why would you bother with anything else? I'm on board with dropping the AF discussion.

"Just in this thread alex described an inner fire practice to produce feelings of ecstasy. etc"

from my understanding (and experience) of gtummo the ecsatasy is a by product and the real insights into the practice is related to emptiness and the stages of dying, (refer to the tibeten book of the dead) white out, red out, black out and the recognition of these stages so that when the process begins to happen we dont freak out and condition awareness with fear as this is seen as an oportune moment. I might be wrong as this wasnt taught directly to me as such but pointed to.
I should add that this is a physio-energetic practice with body and breath practices to help remove the knots in awareness and to open channels.
On the other topic of awakenings - some terms in papers that have been around for a while
Pure Councsious Experience (borrowed by the AF people) PCE
Dual Mysitical Experince (I am) DME
Unititary Mysitical Experience UME

I think whether they are Christian, AF or Church of FSM, buddhist no one can claim anything new it all just a rehash of peoples experince, all shroaded in concepts and beliefs regardless if they claim to be the first person to discover it.

Quick question, not meant to derail the conversation here. What resources can I look at to find serious information about gTummo practices? I've been interested in them for a while, but I can't seem to find real information on the internet. As in, instructions. If there are any books with that sort of information, I could probably get them on interlibrary loan. That's assuming it can even be done without an intiation and whatnot...

"Quick question, not meant to derail the conversation here. What resources can I look at to find serious information about gTummo practices? I've been interested in them for a while, but I can't seem to find real information on the internet. As in, instructions. If there are any books with that sort of information, I could probably get them on interlibrary loan. That's assuming it can even be done without an intiation and whatnot... "

I dont know if anyone will teach anu yoga properly without the preliminaries, tantric initiations, Tsa Lung, there is a lot to the understanding then just the physical practices. There are also songs that go with the terma

The Bliss of Inner Fire is a good book to start
www.amazon.com/Bliss-Inner-Fire-Practice...id=1277348982&sr=1-1

I see, thanks for the info. I'll look into that book.

On the subject of pain in the middle of the head, I have what may seem to be a silly question... but I still want to ask. Do standard OTC painkillers help? I ask because I've found that a simple Advil can help with the typical Three Characteristics bodyload, even though it doesn't eliminate it totally. It shouldn't really matter what sensation is being used for insight practice, right? As long as you're disembedding from and traversing the right strata of mind?

Since everyone seems to be bothered, we will shush the AF discussion. I don't want to pee on anyone else's backyard, especially since it's a backyard full of friendly and helpful people

On the subject of painkillers, I don't know I never tried them. But alcohol does work to diminish the effects of dark night (for a while), so I'm guessing painkillers would work. But my whole decision of doing meditation instead of taking antidepressants was because I wanted to be able to enjoy life without numbing myself, so I'm not planning to take these anytime soon.

Btw I'm happy to report that the soft focus approach seems to be working! Stuff seems to be untangling in the head!

Thank you all

Couldn't resist adding, apparently Daniel is going for Actual Freedom. His book got me serious into meditation. Scary...

dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussio...oards/message/600967

What's so scary about it?

Like I said, that it seems that the place that the search for well being leads to is a state without emotions. I'm scared of getting more out of this than what I bargained for. For instance, if someone had told me two years ago that "desire is suffering" I would probably disagree, and say "desire is life!," but now that I can see the way desire works, and it is such a vile and repulsive way, I am forced to agree, "yes, desire is suffering."

Basically it seems that the more I see how my own internal processes work, the closer I get to concluding this AF thing makes some sense.

Kenneth, doesn't the fact that even Daniel is actively pursuing these things make you reconsider your position of calling AF a mere cult to be forgotten by time?

So I know it sucks, but I would really appreciate if you would all reconsider discussing about Actual Freedom. Basically because some practitioners here seem to be so such strongly against it, which right now seems to me like a positive trait.

Because the way it's going on my mind is, "heck, it makes some sense", and I would certainly appreciate having someone tell me "no, it doesn't make sense, and here's why..." Myself alone is running out of why's.

But lets say it does make sense, would you change your current priorities?

"
Because the way it's going on my mind is, "heck, it makes some sense", and I would certainly appreciate having someone tell me "no, it doesn't make sense, and here's why..." Myself alone is running out of why's.

"

Just go for arhatship and then decide if you are interested. Also try 3rd gear. It's the shizit!!!!!
But I am also for keeping this place free from AF. There are enough discussions over at the DhO on it and this place isn't about AF. I reckon we need Chris to come in here and just tell you how it really is. How is arhatship Chris? Are you suffering much? Is life wonderful? Is it something you would never give up? If you could live like that for one day only or live without it for 100 years but as the king of the world, which would you choose?

An analogy -- if this were a message board about evolution and the science surrounding it we would not have a serious discussion about creationism.

AF is selling something that appears to me as ridiculous, on top of the fact that it's selling something I find useless, if not downright unhealthy. I'm a human being. I want to be a human being. Artificially suppressing my essential humanity, ending up in some blissed out or numbed out state where I don't have to deal with negative emotions is of no value to me. I started practicing because I was in pain but at no time have I ever wanted to eliminate pain. Pain has a purpose. Sadness has a purpose. Anger has a purpose. Experiencing all of that is now as much an an enduring joy, is simply as wonderful, as is any other part of being human in the fullest sense of the word. I relish the beautiful ups and I relish the beautiful downs of my life.

I want THIS life. AF looks like a take away to me.