"Actual Freedom" within a larger context

While I have been reluctant to discuss Actual Freedom on this forum for fear of lending credibility to something I don't think very highly of, there is such a buzz right now around Daniel Ingram's interest in AF that the topic can no longer be avoided.

At the heart of AF lies a simple experience. AF founder Richard calls the experience the pure consciousness experience (PCE). He and other advocates have pointed out that the PCE, although delightful, is not at all unusual, and that in fact virtually everyone has had such an experience. The goal of AF is to cultivate the PCE until it becomes the norm. Since the PCE is very flexible (one can engage in any activity while in the PCE), it would be more accurate to call it a perspective. From the perspective of the PCE, the practitioner experiences happiness and ease, delighting in the simple input of the senses.

Since the PCE is part of everyone's experience, at least occasionally, it cannot be said to be unique to AF. So, what is it about AF that is unique? AF's main thrust is that all experiences or perspectives other than the PCE are pathological and should be avoided. The AF practitioner seeks to come to the stage of "Actual Freedom," at which time the PCE is the only perspective that arises. And since emotions no longer arise at that point, the "Actually Free" person lives a life on ongoing ease: happy, harmless, and helpful.

(cont below)

(cont)

It is this belief in the cultivation of the PCE to the exclusion of all other perspectives that is unique to AF. The state itself is perfectly benign, and is as delightful as its advocates say it is. I would suggest that they are perhaps overzealous in their rhetoric about it; after all, they readily admit that it is not unusual or unique to their system. My teacher, Bill Hamilton, called the state of delighting in the simple, unadorned pleasure of the senses "vipassana consciousness." He urged me to cultivate it along with a number of other states.

I believe that much of the confusion, even hysteria, around AF has arisen because the founder talks about it in opaque, cult-like terms, singing the praises of the PCE while actively deriding more established contemplative traditions. But the smoke clears very quickly once we put the PCE in context. To put it simply, the PCE is just another perspective. The fact that the AF advocates claim it is better or more valid than other experience is neither here nor there; it is an opinion. It is not uncommon for the adherents of a particular system to loudly proclaim its superiority. Think of any religion. Seen in this way, each of us can try out the PCE and decide whether we want to attempt to cultivate it to the exclusion of all other perspectives. The fear that one will easily become "stuck" in the PCE, permanently losing all emotion, is unfounded. Those who claim to have attained Actual Freedom have worked long and hard to do so. It is a bit like lifting weights; you can try it out without fear that you will wake up tomorrow morning bulging like Arnold Shwartzenegger.

My own feeling is that there is no perspective that should be privileged over any other; it's good to develop the mind in all sorts of ways and to finally learn to be free in whatever arises. Freedom in heaven, freedom in hell. No need to cling so tightly to heaven when you can be fine either way.

AF seems reminiscent of the Western advaita scene. My first concern is how the seeker, especially the beginning seeker, can verify that a particular state or stage of consciousness is in fact the pure consciousness experience. Not in terms of a contest or anything but rather more importantly: is acquiring the PCE the end of seeking? Some stories that I've read or heard about are of folks who proclaim that their search is over, that there is nothing more to be done -- then, a year or so later, they are as miserable and grasping as ever. That said, there is no reason not to be open to the possibility that diligent practice of the Actual Freedom system cannot lead to the end of seeking.

I am so in agreement with you, Kenneth. But could you make sure that this place doesn't get flooded with A/F threads as has happened to the DhO. I don't think I am alone in saying that this place is not about A/F as it does not fall within the 3 gear teachings. If people are interested in it, they can go to the A/F website or the DhO which will probably end up or already has ended up an A/F slash Insight website especially when/if Daniel becomes "actually free" as it seems he is aiming for. Can we make this the only thread that people discuss A/F? Because I am visiting the DhO so much more less now. I just have no interest in A/F. I would rather experience and be ok with it all than eradicate things that I think allow me to connect and relate to other human beings more effectively.

Why do you think that a practitioner who has reached the stage of freedom in heaven, freedom in hell, wish to make the PCE a permanent state?

I share Nick's concern. It would be very unfortunate for even a straightforward and honest AF discussion to open the floodgates.

I can understand why a flood of such threads would be undesirable,
though I think that if Kenneth decided to initiate such a discussion in one limited thread, well that's fine and dandy, and those who wish not to discuss it, can simply not do so, and simply steer clear of this particular thread.

On the plus side, this would eliminate the need to discuss this issue in other threads.

edit: spelling, addition.

Shockingly enough I agree with Nick and Chris. I think it would be good to have some honest discussion on here. However I think that we should keep it to a single thread. I am naturally curious about the topic... however the presentation seems so cultish... even their web design looks like it was made by a cult (not objective I know)---I dunno I think i'll just become a lowly arahat before worrying about non-stop bliss...

I've recently heard that there is a new movement, called "Double Extreme Actual Actual Freedom," recently started by a former member of the Actual Freedom movement.
He refuses to reveal his name or his actual location and only comunicates with his followers via Tweets.
This spirtual genius recently discovered that AF wasn't, after all, the ultimate perfect state previously thought, but there was, actually, another, better, more perfect, and more ultimate state, called, of course "Double Extreme Actual Actual Freedom."
Little has been revealed so far about the details of this new movement but it is taking Twitter by storm and is said "do to Actual Freedom what Actual Freedom did to Arhatship."
I for one, then, see no point in wasting any time on "Actual Freedom" when there is an even more actual and more free freedom out there to be had.
As my Double Extreme Actual Actual Freedom practice progresses, I'll be sure to report on my progress at appropriate intervals.
No need to thank me in advance for I am already beyond such mundane human impulses such as the need for recognition or appreciation.

"No need to thank me in advance for I am already beyond such mundane human impulses such as the need for recognition or appreciation."-telecaster

Can I thank you retroactively? You made my day. LOL.

"I don't think I am alone in saying that this place is not about A/F as it does not fall within the 3 gear teachings."-Nikolai

I hear you, Nick. I promise not to let this forum become a pulpit for AF apologists. AF is a religion, and this is not the place for religion.

My reason for bringing it up at all is to throw a monkey wrench in the AF agenda to co-opt one aspect of human experience as their own. Human experience belongs to no one and each of us is free to view our experience through whatever conceptual lens makes sense to us. When Richard gives a fancy name (PCE) to a simple experience and forms a religion to promote it, I call foul. This must be seen in a larger context. I created the 3 Speed Transmission because I wanted a model big enough and flexible enough to include all contemplative experience (including things I don't know about yet). The model includes subject, objects, and awareness, in any combination, and from both the time-bound and timeless points of view. So although there is no place in the 3 Speed Transmission for religion, there is plenty of room for experience. The perspective that Bill Hamilton called vipassana consciousness and that Richard of Actual Freedom calls the pure consciousness experience is a beautiful state that is part of the collective treasure of humankind. We must not cede to Richard and the AF advocates the exclusive right to talk about it. That would be throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

Let's claim vipassana consciousness as our own on behalf of everybody on Earth, reframe the discussion in our own terms and incorporate this beautiful state into the larger framework of the 3 Gears. It's already here, anyway, as one of the states that arises naturally for yogis and non-yogis; we just haven't singled it out for special treatment.

(cont below)

(cont from above)


I was talking to Hokai the other day and he introduced me to the phrase "families of experience." What a wonderful concept. Let's recognize that vipassana consciousness/PCE is in the family of what could be called timeless or atemporal experiences. It is not about development through time. We see that the experience is complete unto itself. This family includes the Mahamudra practice of recognizing the clear light of awareness a la Tilopa's Instructions to Naropa. It also includes neo-Advaita teachings like those of Adhashanti and Ekhardt Tolle as well as the rigpa teachings of Tulku Urgyen and Nyoshul Khenpo. The difference is that vipassana consciousness/PCE is the timeless perspective from the point of view of body sensations. In other words, it is a 1st Gear timeless practice, as opposed to a 2nd or 3rd Gear timeless practice like the others I mentioned. All of these practices are in the family of the timeless.

(cont below)

(cont from above)


As soon as we view vipassana consciousness/PCE within the larger framework of contemplative practice, we can allow the hysteria to die down. It's not a big deal. We don't have to be afraid that we are missing out on some special thing that only the members of a particular sect have access to. Whenever you feel the pull to some kind of 'special, today only' offer or 'drink our Koolaid and accept our world view or forever miss out on the ONE GOOD THING' sales pitch, it's time to look for a larger context. We humans are hardwired to fall for that sort of approach, which explains why even the most intelligent and streetwise among us can be lured into this religion or that if we aren't paying attention to the red flags. And breathless talk about how 'ours is the only way' is one of the most glaring of red flags.

There is a typical developmental sequence in individual human spirituality. We uncover some new perspective, some new part of ourselves, and immediately seek to reject the old stuff. Later, we learn to incorporate the new understanding into the old. Then we go through the process again at a new level. It's natural. What is not natural is to continue to insist that the new perspective should be privileged over the others. That is called getting stuck. As long as we keep moving along, we're fine.

"I've recently heard that there is a new movement, called "Double Extreme Actual Actual Freedom," recently started by a former member of the Actual Freedom movement.
He refuses to reveal his name or his actual location and only comunicates with his followers via Tweets.
This spirtual genius recently discovered that AF wasn't, after all, the ultimate perfect state previously thought, but there was, actually, another, better, more perfect, and more ultimate state, called, of course "Double Extreme Actual Actual Freedom."
Little has been revealed so far about the details of this new movement but it is taking Twitter by storm and is said "do to Actual Freedom what Actual Freedom did to Arhatship."
I for one, then, see no point in wasting any time on "Actual Freedom" when there is an even more actual and more free freedom out there to be had.
As my Double Extreme Actual Actual Freedom practice progresses, I'll be sure to report on my progress at appropriate intervals.
No need to thank me in advance for I am already beyond such mundane human impulses such as the need for recognition or appreciation. "

This is brilliant, Mike-- especially "do to Actual Freedom what Actual Freedom did to Arhatship." I long ago fled DhO because so much of what was there seemed to represent the lost seeking guidance from the pathological. It was just too sad and alarming to even look-- like a train wreck after all the casualties had died and the hulk gone up in flames. Whatever happened to the limited emotional range model critique? That seemed to represent real insight.

It's sobering to contemplate.

"Whatever happened to the limited emotional range model critique? That seemed to represent real insight."-Roomy

How I long for those halcyon days gone by.

Doh! (Note to self: eradicate longing.)

I agree very much with all of that, Kenneth. I also believe that ego plays a part in the cult mentality (I'm not speaking specifically about AF now), as it leads to the urge to have something special, something others don't have. There is a need to belong, and there is ego's need to hold some special status. The combination can be hard to resist and can seduce people into losing perspective. You are doing folks a major favor by placing this in the larger context. That's good. Very good.

"This is brilliant, Mike-- especially "do to Actual Freedom what Actual Freedom did to Arhatship." I long ago fled DhO because so much of what was there seemed to represent the lost seeking guidance from the pathological. It was just too sad and alarming to even look-- like a train wreck after all the casualties had died and the hulk gone up in flames. Whatever happened to the limited emotional range model critique? That seemed to represent real insight.

It's sobering to contemplate.
"

Thanks, writing that post was a pure conscious experience.

So why would a person, having the ability and seen for themselves how they can be free in heaven and free in hell, choose to have only one experience mode (PCE) forever?

"So why would a person, having the ability and seen for themselves how they can be free in heaven and free in hell, choose to have only one experience mode (PCE) forever?"-Yadid

Sorry, Yadid, I didn't answer the first time because I thought your question was rhetorical. But I see that you would like a response.

Why would one who feels free in heaven and free in hell choose to limit herself or himself to one mode of experience?

I don't think they would.

Oh
Thanks for the reply Kenneth, I'm not sure how would my question be rhetorical (I mean, would I be implying that it isn't possible, or that it is possible).

I must say that personally I find this whole issue rather confusing, but I also feel that confusion is great fuel for my meditation practice.

"I was talking to Hokai the other day and he introduced me to the phrase "families of experience." ... Let's recognize that vipassana consciousness/PCE is in the family of what could be called timeless or atemporal experiences. ... it is a 1st Gear timeless practice, as opposed to a 2nd or 3rd Gear timeless practice like the others I mentioned. All of these practices are in the family of the timeless."

Thank you for addressing this issue, Kenneth.

Right along the time that the AF/Insight all-out fights broke out on DhO1.0 - and moderators such as Vince and Hokai politely "exited stage left" I started feeling uneasiness about participating in the community.
There was something viscerally unnerving for me right around that transition from DhO 1.0 to DhO2.0.
I was and still am looking at things from a pre-SE point of view. AF/Insight didn't argue about PERI-stream entry practices, so since that was my level, I would limit my inquiry and practice to 1st gear (no controversy). I was going to explore the disagreeable possibilities when/if I made progress.

Building a vipassana consciousness concept into the scaffolding framework of enlightenment mode makes the whole theory (Right View) aspect much more integrative.

While I do enjoy philosophical discussions of enlightenment, I still aim to continue practicing at my current level and as such conceptual discourses do nothing to ease my core experiential dissatisfaction.

Gratitude.
Andrew

This is an important thread: it's after all a fundamental Dharma point that ignorance is that which wants to know but can't, and that when we start out from ignorance, we invariably end up suffering.

So let's find out about AF, and put an end to this particular form of suffering. I don't mean let's all do AF; I mean let's not make a taboo out of it.

There are now many highly informative threads on DhO about AF, and from reading those (and participating in one, a few weeks ago) I have now a better understanding what AF is than ever before, and as a consequence I end up suffering less from the mental tape-loops involving paranoid nightmares of robot cultists plotting to take away all my teachers.

Robot cultists, heh. Blade Runner, anyone?

Also, I must stress that it was Tarin, an AF practitioner, who single-handedly gave me good, solid insight advice and patiently nudged me on to deeper insight, all in a long-lived, public, "pure insight" thread on DhO. In the light of some comments in this thread, I can't help but notice a distinct non-participation by insight people. What was that all about, the parable of the Good Android?

Relax a bit, people. Unless you don't want to. But at least, investigate the hell out of the tight-arsed-ness.

Cheers,
Florian (who couldn't care less for AF at the moment, but who *is* a bit thin-skinned about certain forms of bigotry, at least when he's not too busy commiting them himself)

"Also, I must stress that it was Tarin, an AF practitioner, who single-handedly gave me good, solid insight advice and patiently nudged me on to deeper insight, all in a long-lived, public, "pure insight" thread on DhO."-Florian

Are you saying Tarin was the only one who gave you advice or the only one who gave you *good* advice? ;-D

Just kidding, Florian. Anyone who knows Tarin knows that he is smart, friendly, articulate, and an accomplished samatha/vipassana practitioner. The criticisms of AF are not intended to single out Tarin for character assassination.

But it's worth asking whether the helpful thread in question happened before or after so many of us drifted away from the DhO, dazed, bewildered, and alienated by the constant droning of Actual Freedom doctrine.

I don't see any of this as black or white. For example, is it true that we must be either AF advocates or "bigots"? How about "just not interested"? Better yet, can we be interested in vipassana consciousness/PCE for its own sake, without accepting the AF interpretation of the experience? I prefer the middle way between bigotry and Koolaid. It sounds like you do, too.

"Cheers,
Florian (who couldn't care less for AF at the moment, but who *is* a bit thin-skinned about certain forms of bigotry, at least when he's not too busy commiting them himself)"


hahahah!

One interesting point for me about the AF method (after dumping all the AF philosophy) is that a slightly different question can lead to quite a different outcome. Do all (relevant) slightly different phrasings of questions lead to quite different outcomes?

For example Tarin contrasted
'who is afraid? : (AF)who is having this experience of i am afraid?'
'what is fear? : (AF)what is this i that am afraid?'

the difference seems to be rather than focusing on a subject or object as noun, it focuses on 'subject and object' as verb.

Now consider Hokais article: hokai.info/ws/?p=17

In this light how about something like:
(AF) "how am i experiencing this moment of being alive?" --> "how are we experiencing this moment of being together/connected?"

Further, consider where asking "who am I" leads...and where HAIETMOFBA leads, where will a mutual/sangha type question likely lead?

ps I appreciate this is not all there is to the AF method.

Well, the AF stuff is happening in its own threads. To be honest, I never noticed a "constant" droning of AF doctrine. Maybe I'm just good at filtering out that kind of stuff, but as far as I can tell, the AF stuff stays within its threads in one little corner of the DhO,

Frankly, that's like vegans shunning vegetarian restaurants because they have honey!!!! on the shelf next to the vegan salad dressing, and then complaining that there are so few vegans in the restaurant.

I don't see it black or white, either. I think that seeing this situation as black or white deserves a very hard look at one's own motives. This is *not* something we want to fool ourselves over, we don't want to believe our first rationalizations and do away with this. After all, not believing in our rationalizations is what much of the talk about getting dis-embeddes is about, at least in my understanding.

Sorry about the word "bigoted" - it's a bit strong, but if it got my point across about not indulging in the comfortable routine of building a large taboo around AF, then it might have been almost okay..

I had an unpleasant encounter with heavy-duty bigotry yesterday, and am probably still over-reacting from it.

Yeah, middle way - but no Kool-Aid and no Bigotry. There's a great story about an early muslim saint (female, too!) who went through her home town carrying a bucket of water and a lit torch. When people asked her what she was doing that for, she replied that she'd rather set fire to paradise and put out the fires of hell, than have people love god out of desire for paradise or fear of hell. Don't know if this is pertinent here, but I have a hunch it is.

Cheers,
Florian