"Actual Freedom" within a larger context

This is good news! Thank you Daniel and Kenneth.

Perfect -- and Bravo!

Hi brianm2

Came across this thread way late it seems, but didn't want to miss the opportunity to say bravo for being one of the few clear thinkers on this topic. You are right in thinking that maybe there are legitimate differences in the practices. AF != cult && AF != buddhism.

I am hesitant to go into any detail since I don't think this community is open to it, and as has been suggested by others in the thread there are other places for those who are interested in exploring what's on offer (DhO currently, groups.yahoo.com/group/actualfreedom/ for the curious and groups.google.com/group/actualism for the practicing actualists).

Instead I will just wish everyone the best in their own endeavours, whether AF or otherwise

Craig

I spend lot of time in the southern part of the United States. It's an interesting place, especially if you go to some of the out-of-the-way places I go. It challenges your general conception of things and it makes you think about what "normal" really is in a supposedly homogeneous cultural context like that of the U.S. The places I go are generally rural and are also home to a steel mill, since I spend a lot of time with the steel industry. The managers at those places are not what you'd find in a large city anywhere, but particularly in a large northern U.S. city. They manage using a lot more common sense, and a lot more by intuition (seat of the pants) and, frankly heart. I once heard one of those managers during a meeting talking about the disagreements he was having with various others in the company far away and he used the phrase "clear thinker" like you did, Craig, but what he said was, "A clear thinker is one I agree with."

Just a thought on a lazy, sunny Sunday morning.

Took several reads but I finally got your point Chris.
In the beginning I thought he meant that he agrees with clear thinkers, but then I realized he meant "Those I agree with I categorize as 'clear thinkers'", right?

Hi Chris

I think you have hit the nail on the head here. Is it possible to think clearly, or is it impossible on the basis that all thought is biased by our own opinions? Perhaps both are possible?

If so, what causes bias? Is it possible that a limited perspective might be the culprit? 1P in Wilbur-speak. Is it possible that those commenting on AF with little to no knowledge on the subject might be the biased ones?

Is it possible that *not* standing in judgement of AF, *not* deciding whether or not it has something new to offer without any actual knowledge about what's on offer, might be the unbiased perspective? That *not* feeling a need to embrace or reject AF out of hand without further knowledge, might be the unbiased perspective?

I recognise these 1P traits because I have fallen prey to them myself on many occasions.

Perhaps I can offer a quote relating to a business meeting myself - I saw this on a poster before going into a meeting on Friday. "Education's purpose is to replace an empty mind with an open one." -Malcolm Forbes

Craig, you realize of course that the idea of getting rid of the affective quality, is something most people have an affective bias against. This is nothing special, it just means that affection is a process which tends to self perpetuate (a meme, if you will).

That affections disappear is enough knowledge about what AF has to offer to bring about a number of affective reactions from my part. So this forms a natural bias against AF.

For instance, I think "How would it be not loving my family and friends," or "how would it be if I had lost the ability of emotional empathy," and immediately a tinge of sadness comes up (an emotion).

Of course, if I where to decide, for one reason or another, to eliminate this self justifying basis of emotion, e.g. by meditation techniques, if I where to no longer "love my emotions", then the whole thing would naturally seem worthless and maybe good to get rid of. This seems to be what has happened to you, and although it is a different bias, make no mistake: it is still a bias.

I never found any problem in having emotional biases, as long as the whole process was clear. E.g. I'm doing this (maybe foolish) thing because I love this person. And as you can see, I have it pretty clear in my mind why I dislike the idea of actual freedom, it isn't exactly as if I was "being driven by an evil, unseen instinctual impulse".

Now I'm curious, doesn't the idea of not loving anyone ever again (etc) upset you in the least? How, and why, did you decide it was a good endeavor to pursue this Actual Freedom? Did Richard's discourse charm you? What?

Bias is a sort of mirror image of clear thinking, as bias is what the folks we don't agree with have

Craig - I'm just playing around and pointing. There's every reason to let AF adherents do AF. And I honestly really do hope it's valuable and worthwhile for those who wish to practice it. Maybe the recording from Daniel and Kenneth will go a long way toward quieting the angst over this whole subject and then we can all get back to "normal," whatever our individual flavor of normal might be.

Hi Bruno

Thanks for your reply, you raise some interesting points. I couldn't agree more with you that proposing to eliminate affection tends to evoke an affective response.

I have decided to self-immolate because I have seen directly and clearly that 'I' stand in the way of experiencing true intimacy with others, and 'I' am nothing more than a figment of my imagination. In the light of those two facts, there is no other option than to do whatever it takes to cease to 'be'.

The idea of not loving my wife or soon-to-be-born child (we're expecting mid-August) causes me no concern, because what we term 'love' is not worth putting on a pedestal. Have you ever noticed that saying "I love you" is actually a question? There is a neediness to love, it is hinged upon expectations of the other person, and if they stop meeting those expectations there'll be hell to pay. I find it ironic that if we love someone and they die, we will pine for them forever. But if we love someone and they cheat, we will resent them forever. What we love isn't actually the person themselves but our experience of them - rich with our own emotions and projections. We very rarely see the person for what they actually say and do (actual intimacy). In a way, we're in love with the feeling of love, the feeling of being needed and needing. Through love we desperately try to overcome the sense of separation and loneliness that is shown to be of our own making in the PCE.

Instead of love, actual intimacy is available with another person. Actual caring takes place quite naturally when 'I' am not in the way with my agendas. There is a benevolence to me-as-I-am in the PCE. When I'm actually free I will be kinder, more generous, more patient, will not start or engage in fights... I'll be a better husband and father.

"
Bias is a sort of mirror image of clear thinking, as bias is what the folks we don't agree with have

Craig - I'm just playing around and pointing. There's every reason to let AF adherents do AF. And I honestly really do hope it's valuable and worthwhile for those who wish to practice it. Maybe the recording from Daniel and Kenneth will go a long way toward quieting the angst over this whole subject and then we can all get back to "normal," whatever our individual flavor of normal might be.

"

Hi Chris

That sounds entirely fair to me. I'll get back to trying to eliminate the feeling of 'normal'

Craig

Best wishes to Daniel, Tarin, Trent and all else who choose to investigate Actual Freedom. Thank you for sharing your experiences with us.

As an aside, based on their posts (I've never met them in person) it seems that Daniel, Tarin and Trent all seem to share certain personality traits - I wonder if AF has a greater appeal to those with similar personalities.

Nonetheless, Daniel is still the intrepid explorer, and still has my respect.

Michael

"
Instead of love, actual intimacy is available with another person. Actual caring takes place quite naturally when 'I' am not in the way with my agendas. There is a benevolence to me-as-I-am in the PCE. When I'm actually free I will be kinder, more generous, more patient, will not start or engage in fights... I'll be a better husband and father."

Hi Craig,

Hmmmm, my experience of third path at the moment is allowing for the "I" to easily step out of the way on many occasions as "I" interact with people. This discerning mind easily sees when there is a desire to do something for "mySelf". And I can easily ignore t as a selfish desire. Are you saying even an arhat could not be so selfless?


Edited to ask if you have ever tried accessing what Kenneth calls 3rd gear? Cultivating this seems to make this sense of "self" much nicer, kinder and more compassionate. What is the difference between accessing and cultivating 3rd gear compared to doing the same with the PCE?


Sincerely interested in the difference and why PCE mode is considered better that 3rd gear mode,

Nick

Hi Nick

Great questions!

"I" as thinker can indeed step out of the way on many occasions and that does bring about a great reduction in suffering. What I have found is that "me" as feeler has a lot more difficulty - in fact I would posit that when strong feelings (that constitute the sense of "me" as a being) are invoked, it's practically impossible for "me" to step out of the way until my passion has been vented. On this basis, suffering continues and is always waiting in the wings for provocation to invoke it.

I was never able to say with 100% certainty whether I attained 4th path or just 3rd (and that's OK with me). What I did find is that when "I" as thinker fell away, "me" as feeler really came to the fore, with no shame in doing so. As suggested by Mariana Kaplan (with a ton of quotes from eminent teachers) in Halfway Up the Mountain, enlightenment does not confer perfection and is not an ending to suffering or anything else. It is a new beginning, and it shows up your imperfections.

Actual Freedom on the other hand, has the capacity to eliminate suffering and confer perfection. I recently reflected on my motivations across a number of areas in my life and decided that I spend much of my time unconsciously trying to avoid suffering through various long term habits, so it seems sensible to consciously do something about it once and for all.

I spend a significant amount of time in 3rd gear when not practicing AF. It occurs quite naturally on it's own without me needing to do anything to bring it about. It is my natural state at rest and has been for over a year. I agree the sense of self is much nicer, kinder and compassionate in 3rd gear, but the passions (the fear and aggression that cause me to be harmful to others) are always waiting in the wings. Malice and sorrow arise and pass away.

(cont'd in next post)

Why I consider PCE mode better than 3rd gear mode: Malice and sorrow do not arise. I am harmless to others, and happy myself. I need not do anything to make it happen - in fact, 'I' only need to step out of the way for it to happen on it's own - you can actually see this when it happens, so it's quite clear that 'I' am standing in the way of perfection.

The experience is so pure and perfect, so effortless and freeing. It is an entirely different experience to that attained through meditation. It is that rare experience that we go on holidays to try to re-capture but usually fail to do - for me, it is the holiday I took at the beach in 2002.

Getting closer to the PCE is the reason we go for walks in the morning when the roads are quiet and the air is crisp and why we say to ourselves and eachother "we should do this more often!".

It is that rare occurrence when all our troubles fall away effortlessly and the world seems perfect without us needing to do anything, without anything needing to change. The senses are heightened - we can hear sounds we normally don't hear, and everything looks clearer and cleaner. We didn't bring it about - it just happened when we weren't noticing.

AF is about really paying attention to those moments and deciding to live the rest of our lives that way.

Craig

"I spend a significant amount of time in 3rd gear when not practicing AF. It occurs quite naturally on it's own without me needing to do anything to bring it about. It is my natural state at rest and has been for over a year. I agree the sense of self is much nicer, kinder and compassionate in 3rd gear, but the passions (the fear and aggression that cause me to be harmful to others) are always waiting in the wings. Malice and sorrow arise and pass away."

Craig, I believe Nick was referring to what occurs not during but after recognition of the clearest light, just to clarify. During the recognition of the clearest light of 3rd gear things are quite different, and you are not describing that, right?

"Craig, I believe Nick was referring to what occurs not during but after recognition of the clearest light, just to clarify. During the recognition of the clearest light of 3rd gear things are quite different, and you are not describing that, right?

"

Hi Chris

I'm afraid I didn't follow this. When you say not during but after recognition of the clearest light, for me I take this to mean way back when I originally stabilised in the view - but are you referring to something else instead?

I'm guessing you mean that when I say that the passions arise, malice and sorrow arise, that I am no longer in the view, and that the appropriate solution, in a 3rd gear sense, is to re-stablise in the view?

That's been my experience with primordial awareness anyway. It requires an ongoing commitment to apply it while on the rollercoaster of life, and that's why I find it of limited value compared to the goal of actual freedom. I'm not sure that 3rd gear really works during crises - I recall a fight with my wife in which I felt angry and not angry at the same time, but that's not a frequent occurrence, and I suspect it was one of the dissociative states that AF warns about.

Craig

Kenneth Folk: "We recorded the interview and have both agreed to publish it after some minor editing (removing the pleasantries at the beginning and ending) ..."

Kenneth - when and where?

"I'm guessing you mean that when I say that the passions arise, malice and sorrow arise, that I am no longer in the view, and that the appropriate solution, in a 3rd gear sense, is to re-stablise in the view?"

This is what I was referring to, Craig, yes. I wanted to make sure we were being clear in case someone was confused.

Hi Craig,

Hmmm, my experience has been a very, very positive one as I progress from path to path. I seem to be getting happier and more peaceful everyday. In fact I am the most peaceful, and harmless I have ever been in my entire life. My fiancee is loviing me to bits because of the big changes. No more grumpiness, no more fights, no more negativity. I am more there for her than I have ever been since we met. I attribute this to 3rd path by the way and can only speculate that it will get better at 4th path.

I appreciate your search for freedom from the suffering you experience. I guess it differs from individual to individual. I feel no way inclined to "self-immolate" as I feel I am becoming more and more compassionate and harmless on the path I am on. But I wish you all the best on your journey to where you want to be. You seem very sincere in that search and I hope you achieve it and find that it's all it's supposedly cracked up to be. I am finding that the path I have chosen to follow is also all it's cracked up to be.

Here's to being happy and harmless.

Nick

Hi Craig,

In your view, how does the PCE differ from what is pointed to in these Thich Nat Han-style walking meditation instructions from Charles MacInerny?

"Some people enjoy practicing in a beautiful outdoor setting, like a park...If you practice outdoors choose a scenic and quiet setting. Walk without a destination. Wander aimlessly without arriving, being somewhere rather than going somewhere.

"Walk with 'soft vision' allowing the eyes to relax and focus upon nothing, while aware of everything. Smile softly with your eyes. Gradually allow the smile to spread from your eyes to your face and throughout your body. This is called an 'organic smile' or a 'thalamus smile'. Imagine every cell of your body smiling softly. Let all worry and sadness fall away from you as you walk.

"Walk in silence, both internal and external.

"Be mindful of your walking, make each step a gesture, so that you move in a state of grace, and each footprint is an impression of the peace and love you feel for the universe. Walk with slow, small, deliberate, balanced, graceful foot steps...

"Notice the beauty of your surroundings, both externally and internally. Smile with every cell in your body."

Excerpted from: bit.ly/7kootj

Nick, you make some good points. I've always been much more interested in knowing what I am than in becoming something other than that, so for me there was never a draw toward eliminating anything at all. And as my practice has progressed, especially recently, the propensity to fret over strong emotions has diminished to the point of being all but gone. Somehow the combination of things I have encountered, learned or experienced along the way have served to make me satisfied, if not downright happy, knowing exactly who and what I am, and the depth of that knowing that is what I was after. So.... Actual Freedom and the PCE just look less enticing to me than to others for both reasons; it's not what I started out to find or develop and the path I took has given me the insight into my nature that I wanted anyway.

"Kenneth Folk: "We recorded the interview and have both agreed to publish it after some minor editing (removing the pleasantries at the beginning and ending) ..."

Kenneth - when and where? "

The video (in eight 10-minute segments) is all ready to go pending Daniel's approval. If and when he gives his permission, I'll post it here with the click of a mouse.

Maybe in the end the real difference between Actual Freedom and Buddhism (or Kenneth's practices) is the desire or the felt need to change something fundamental about ourselves, to re-engineer in some way. Maybe some of us are happy to investigate, find out and accept what we are while others are dissatisfied with just that and need to take things a step further and actually change themselves, or at least to try to. I dunno, but the more I read of Craig's comments and think about this the more I think that's a difference at the core of the thing.

CGN: "I spend a significant amount of time in 3rd gear when not practicing AF. It occurs quite naturally on it's own without me needing to do anything to bring it about. It is my natural state at rest and has been for over a year. I agree the sense of self is much nicer, kinder and compassionate in 3rd gear, but the passions (the fear and aggression that cause me to be harmful to others) are always waiting in the wings. "

"Why I consider PCE mode better than 3rd gear mode: Malice and sorrow do not arise. I am harmless to others, and happy myself. I need not do anything to make it happen - in fact, 'I' only need to step out of the way for it to happen on it's own - you can actually see this when it happens, so it's quite clear that 'I' am standing in the way of perfection. "

Based on these quotes alone, it's clear to me that you have no idea what you're talkiing about with respect to 3rd Gear/Enlightenment. You're comparing a temporary perspective with the Absolute.

CGN: "AF is about really paying attention to those moments and deciding to live the rest of our lives that way. "
Who is it that's paying attention? Who's there when no attention is paid?

I wish you the best of luck in your practice with AF, if that's what you want. There's more beyond PCE. Practice!

Gesundheit!

AugustLeo

Hi Kenneth

I'm so glad you asked - that set of instructions are a perfect example of the subtlety involved in this form of practice, because they can apply equally to invoke a PCE or a meditative state (AF would call an ASC). In your terminology I would say that is third gear practice, would you agree?

Up until these lines, it could easily be instructions for invoking a PCE. Actualism starts out with feeling good (the smiling part) because its easier to step into a PCE from there than from feeling bad. But to step into the PCE you have to let feeling good fall away too. Where the instructions really start to differ is here:

"Be mindful of your walking, make each step a gesture, so that you move in a state of grace, and each footprint is an impression of the peace and love you feel for the universe."

In feeling the love, we are invoking a feeling where no feeling was desirable (for AF practice). Try it without making each step a gesture, without noticing that each footprint is anything other than a footprint behind you - unless you're craning your neck you won't even see it anyway Notice the feel of the earth underneath each foot instead as you take each step, and the wind on your skin, and the singing of the birds in your ears.

"Notice the beauty of your surroundings, both externally and internally. Smile with every cell in your body."

In noticing the beauty we invoke a feeling veneer, affectively applied over the pristine perfection that is already here. Cast your net wide by opening up your awareness to include every physical sensation, your peripheral vision, your hearing, your sense of touch. Try to see the world in 3d, like a 3d movie, you can pay attention in such a way that it becomes more vividly 3d. Try to see past the veil our of own making, to people and objects themselves. Feeling a person (keeping them with us) will prevent a PCE.

Craig