Nikolai's Practice notes, Phase .2.

What we can say about Bernadette Roberts is that she followed her father's advice "you don't have to believe, you have to practice the faith. PRACTICE, PRACTICE PRACTICE!". After 60 years of dedicated contemplative practice she came to her own conclusion that may or may not match the mystical theology of Aquinas, Saint John of the Cross or Meister Eckhart.

After decades of dedicated practice, we will also come to our own conclusion that may or may not match those of our senior brothers and sisters; but we will have walked the path to the best of our abilities. In the meantime: PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE.

"
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I think that with what they knew at the time, their position (which we now obviously see wasn't fixed at all) was reasonable and justified. I also don't remember Daniel or Kenneth acting either dismissively or condescendingly..."

Well, yes, no position actually IS fixed Bruno.
That you can remember no time when Kenneth or Daniel has acted condescending or dismissive either in defense of their earlier or current positions is difficult to take seriously, considering Kenneth's response to Jackson a few posts back. Now, this attitude is perfectly human and I'm not saying Kenneth should never be condescending or should be held to a completely different standard than others here. I am saying that as the leader of this community when he takes that tone, either with newcomers or senior students, it is simply unskillful leadership. It also makes his recent claims of limited emotional range seem absurd. For example, if Kenneth still claims not to have felt anger etc since beginning this experiment, I would really have to question his honesty given the tone of some of his comments recently. And then there is the claim that he is merely exploring the limits of the known-- ok, that's great! But need it be accompanied by dogmatic attitudes about the latest Best Thing Ever and Highest Practice of All Time every time he discovers a new dimension to his practice? this issue also has relevence to members of this community, but ESPECIALLY to long time students. Don't you see that the disturbing aspects of this episode are arising more from the manner in which these claims are being put forth and defended than from the claims themselves? I don't think anyone would be reacting this way if there were less of a proselytizing tone being taken by some of the advocates.

Hey guys,
Can we please stop fighting? There is a lot of ways to practice after 4th path and I don't want this experiment to screw up this community. I've got to say, the way we are practicing is not right for everybody. It is good for probably a very small minority. We all just want to be peaceful and happy - how we go about that is going to look different depending on the individual. I'm seeing this descend into a "which is the true enlightenment?" debate, and just isn't helpful to anybody.

I don't think any model of enlightenment is ultimately correct, but they can be helpful for a limited time in our practice. Right now, I'm curious if I can live without the sense of a separate self ever coming up. I'll probably be curious about something else later. It's just practice, it changes. There probably isn't any ultimate realization anyway. Please guys, lets chill out for a while.

What I note is that on this forum as well as on other related forums or blogs, the big issue is now "what's next? (after awakening)" Everyone is trying to find what is the best form of practice to go beyond what was supposed to be the ultimate.

This post awakening exploration is bound to bring arguments, but if we see the positive side of it, it also means that many have already completed what 99.9% of the spiritual and mystical literature is talking about. And this is already incredible. I mean, I don't know many communities where a large majority of practitioners are already familiar with jhanas, stages of insights, kundalini awakening or non-dual awareness. Most people out there are just speculating about it, while here on this forum we have such a large amount of yogis who already master this stuff.

Another issue is the fact that since the forum is focused on a practical exploration everyone is free to have a special affinity with a particular religion, tradition or lineage. On one side, I see the limits of the pragmatic approach simply because one cannot separate spiritual practice from the metaphysical or religious paradigm on which it is based. On the other side, I see traditions, maps and models as tools leading to further discoveries. Practically speaking, this means that we may adopt the view of Christian mysticism, Dzogchen, Advaita Vedanta (or even Actual Freedom) for a few months or years, using it as a tool to understand what a particular tradition may have to teach us. This doesn't mean that we have been converted to another tradition, but that we are momentarily adopting the mind frame of a particular tradition to explore it as an insider.

Well said Alex!

Absolutely r.e. the last three posts. Fantastic points and positive sentiments, guys. I find many of the things Kenneth, Bruno, Nik, and Owen describe to be completely reasonable and desirable. But it's not as simple as group hugs and political correctness. There are real consequences for real people arising from the changes in this community and **the way these "new" practices are being contextualized and expressed** underline underline boldface italicize.

We want clear communication and friendly mutual support as practitioners. We are making the world a better place through our practice.

Differences still need to be addressed and explored to determine whether we are talking about different things with the same words, the same thing with different words, or actually disagreeing. I'm not entirely sure that everyone who lines up on "either" side of this actually agrees with the others on that side or are practicing the same practice yet.

And this IS important. Because if it's possible to get the benefits and realization of Rigpa while thoughts manifest as well as while they subside, wouldn't you want to have Rigpa in both thoughts and no thoughts? And if it's possible to have completely calm, open, intimate presence in the pristine actual world while retaining-- in the very same moment!-- the full range of emotivity, wouldn't you want to? And if it's possible to rest in unconditioned being (nibanna) in the same moment as conditioned formations of thoughts, feelings and sensations arise and pass, wouldn't you want that rather than waiting for paranibanna after death or nirodha while alive to experience "relief" from all conditioned arisings?
con't

You see, I think this is where the whole thing starts to look problematic, when it is expressed in terms of dropping some aspect of our being, whether thoughts, emotions, or all experiencing as the precondition for a certain kind of well being and freedom to be realized. For those who have tasted both presence and absence of the given phenomena as neither benefiting or harming intrinsic well-being, and have seen that the presence of these phenomena in no way impedes the clarity, peacefulness and compassion that we seek to actualize as practitioners, the descriptions in terms of renouncing all experience (classical theravada) thoughts (tulku urgyen and his disciples) or emotions (DM, AF) raises red flags-- if you can have the realization without surgically removing certain states, why wouldn't you?

And in posting this, I hope to discover that we are using the term "emotion" in different ways, and that what those of us who value the emotions value in them is still there in the lack the renouncers are speaking of. I still really wonder if we aren't being collectively confused by a miscommunication which only appears to be disagreement. And if I'm not content to pay lip service to political correctness (we all have our views) or mere social re-assurance (group hug), if I feel the need to take a stand in favor of actual communication through hashing things out, then counter-productive styles of communication need to be adressed, whether in my posts or others'. Period!

This isn't about one-upping or fighting guys: this is about authentic confrontation as the threshold to real communication. No ignoring each other, platitudes however genuinely uttered, or political correctness will get us from not understanding each other to understanding each other. It may not always be fun or pretty, but this is what relationship requires.

And in case it isn't implicitly clear, let me make it explicit: I care about my relationships with ALL of you. The support we share here and on other forums is the real deal, Sangha! This is what makes life so fantastic and adventurous, the many people with whom we can share our way. It requires work sometimes though--- and none of us would be posting in this conversation if we didn't care about each other, and the relationships we're forming here. That's why it's important to explore our differences with patience and diligence and generosity and straightforwardness. Because we care!

Hi all,

I would like to apologize to anyone who felt I was being condescending in any of my posts about DM. On reflection, I see some of them may have come across as so. That was certainly not my intention. I was just trying to describe my experiences and interpretations of them as best I could. Apologies to everyone turned off by that. No harm meant, and hopefully we can all get back to trying to achieving what we have all set out to achieve...happiness!

Sincerely,

Nick

P.S. I am gonna start a new practice notes thread. When this conversation ends, the powers that be can close it.