Nikolai's Practice notes, Phase .2.

Jackson, yes, I think there's more than ample reason to be concerned and to be very, very careful with this practice. It's clearly not something anyone should engage with lightly.

Owen, do you think you can reverse what's occurred so far, or not? And thanks for your honesty.

"Also, this whole "self in the middle of the head" thing seems bogus to me. A self-sense can project to myriad perceived locations.

...
Last I checked, 4th path was supposed to be the end of seeking; the end of "insight disease." I'm puzzled by the number of so-called 4th pathers who continue to seek with such conviction, such gusto. What is the force behind the need to stay on the treadmill? For god's sake, guys. Life isn't THAT bad, is it?
"

My self sense can get projected anywhere. I usually feel it in the chest. You're right, it does seem to vary.

I talked about the end of insight disease with Nick last night, and I'm happy to report that since I got 4th path in August, it hasn't come back. I don't feel driven to attain bigger and deeper insights like I was before. That part is gone. What isn't gone is all the habit patterns and emotional pain that come from a lifetime of thinking I was an independent self. That's going to take serious practice to resolve, and this experiment appears to be a skilful way to do.
It might also be a bad idea to talk about it as a "total lack of emotions". The emotions do exist in a PCE, they just seem to be much more attenuated. The predominant feelings for me are a deep peace and wonder. 4th path was the end of seeking, this is the end of fighting.

" I'm happy to be the canary.
"

Me too. I also second everything that Owen said. I don't think you guys need to worry. All that fear you feel, I felt when I initially got introduced to what others were doing. Fear of losing this or that. It repelled me as it does to you now. But have you actually practiced it? Even for a short amount of time, say a week tops, you shold before reacting thus. That is the ONLY way you will see what we are on about.

I feel peaceful , harmonious and yes, simpler. Life is much more simpler this way. I'm not just enjoying it because i don't suffer. I am truly seeing amazing results with my fiancee. I made here suffer even after 4th path due some reactionary behaviour of mine. Now, these past weeks, none of that. The exact opposite. We couldn't be happier and have decided to get hitched soon.

All your fears are based on projections and you should try it before you knock it. I am not suffering when I am practicing in direct mode. Why do you guys fear this? You should inspect where that fear is really coming from. I did and I found it to be connected to how my world view was being challenged. I then went and and tried to see what the fuss was all about. It feels natural, it feels like what the Buddha taught. There are no adverse side effects, and yes the way i described craving/tanha as being hot was inspired by Kenneth's poetic license in his descriptions. The self contraction becomes very obvious after having experienced long periods without it. Try it and see.

I also respect both Chris and Jackson. But you should remember, we are big adults with our explorers caps on.

"What isn't gone is all the habit patterns and emotional pain that come from a lifetime of thinking I was an independent self. That's going to take serious practice to resolve, and this experiment appears to be a skilful way to do." ~Owen

I'm kind of on board with you here, and kind of not. There is still a desire/drive to shore up karma (bad habits) is there not?

I appreciate your honesty, Owen. I really do. Thank you.

From what I know about bad habits, they are best replaced by good habits. I guess I'm not convinced that maintaining a perpetual PCE/DM is a good habit. I can think of a list of better ones that don't involve a resultant lack of affect or interest.

I know I'm coming off as quite harsh. Know that I respect you and everyone here very much. I am merely a concerned friend.

~Jackson

Hey jackson. So when people try and get into needless arguments with me, I used to get pissed. Now I don't. They expect me to and when I'm not following the script, it freaks them out a bit. This isn't a bad thing.

I'm also not dissociated. Trust me, I've been through long periods of dissociation, and this is the reverse of it. It is as if I'm present in my own body and experience to the point where I can catch the drama before it becomes a problem. And at this point, I'm tired of the drama and the ******** and the narratives and the projections. They just hurt. Now that I know what's causing them, the hurt can stop. I'm not a robotic shell, I'm just peaceful and happy.
And I probably shouldn't have said "lack of affect" it's more like lack of negative affect. Hope that makes some sense.

Chris:
I don't think I could go back to the way I was. The Buddha said he only taught suffering and its ending. I'd just like to see if that's possible. If somebody could end suffering, why wouldn't they?

I don't get the spooky affect like Owen. That may be because people expected him to be certain way. i am naturally calm and collected when i speak to others (except my fiancee so I have experienced none of that. But my fiancee really appreciates me being calm and happy and simpler.

You guys always post about having hard times even at 4th path. I have had hard times myself. I am not having any of those hard times anymore after starting direct perception mode for real. That sold me. I feel like I am embodying enlightenment like this. i am using the 4th path skills to be able to do this. It feel so damn natural, guys. This is what I wanted from the very beginning. I was never a hardcore rigpa/clear light enthusiast. I wanted to be free from al suffering like the pali canon Buddha talked of. I think this is it.

"Give it a go and then decide. It's the only way to see." ~Nick

I'm happy that you're getting positive results from the practice, Nick. I really am. I've never subscribed to the old "you can't knock it 'til you try it" adage. I wouldn't take ecstasy or heroin based on that logic, for obvious reasons, even if you were using either regularly and enjoyed it immensly. I've seen what happens to some people who do those things, and I'm not interested in finding out if it happens to me. No thanks.

I'm not equating the PCE to ecstasy. That would be stupid. But I know that multiple people report effects that are nowhere near anything I would wish upon myself or any of my dearest friends.

To be fair, I have played around with PCE's. I started a long time ago, back when Tarin and I were still communicating regularly via email. It's interesting, but nothing I bothered to continue for reasons already stated.

For what it's worth, I just wish to encourage you to exercise some caution. I may sound like an ignorant, traditionalist weirdo, but I really do care about you guys. Regardless of how wonderful it feels, please, oh please, evalute its effects as objectively if you can (if that's even something you can do from the baseline of a PCE).

With respect,
Jackson

"All your fears are based on projections and you should try it before you knock it."

"But have you actually practiced it? Even for a short amount of time, say a week tops, you shold before reacting thus. That is the ONLY way you will see what we are on about. "

With all due respect, Nick, I'll watch what happens. Like Jackson just said, I'm a concerned friend. I think a much longer period of evaluating that practice is necessary before we form any judgments.What I do know tells me to be cautious.

Good luck. We'll be holding the keys.

Just one other thing. Can we all have a group hug or something? You guys rock and support my practice more than you understand. I don't say that enough. I'm immensely grateful for you all being here. Much metta.

Yeh, I second that group hug. Quit worrying guys. I would like to hear Kenneth's take on this.

" I feel like I am embodying enlightenment like this. i am using the 4th path skills to be able to do this. It feel so damn natural, guys. This is what I wanted from the very beginning. I was never a hardcore rigpa/clear light enthusiast. I wanted to be free from al suffering like the pali canon Buddha talked of. I think this is it."

I think we should reserve judgment and talk more about this claim in six months.

"
" I feel like I am embodying enlightenment like this. i am using the 4th path skills to be able to do this. It feel so damn natural, guys. This is what I wanted from the very beginning. I was never a hardcore rigpa/clear light enthusiast. I wanted to be free from al suffering like the pali canon Buddha talked of. I think this is it."

I think we should reserve judgment and talk more about this claim in six months.
"

Hehe, I should say, I think this is a way to get to that rather than "this is it". Are you guys suffering after 4th path? At anytime? Even if there ain't noone there to suffer? You still get angry? You still get agitated? You still feel petty anger? I don't want to be petty anymore. And while practicing this, I am not. And everyone around me benefits. What is the problem?

Hi all.

A few thoughts I'd add here, with of course the caveat I could be totally talking out of my ass.

I am pretty sure last week I passed through 4th path; felt a completion and went off the ride. Something got solidified about the self not being real and the reality not being dual (not that I live in the not-two, just that I am now firmly convinced it isn't dual).

And yet it really seems to me that 4th path is a pretty low-fever enlightenment; it definitely does not conform to the enlightenment I've experienced vicariously and intuitively in most of the teachers I've seen. I can see how 4th path makes that kind of enlightenment feasible, but they are not the same.

So, as a result of this and all this PCE talk, I've been going back through all my Tantric Shaivite literature and clearly they are all describing a much more profound state than what we here call 4th path. I would say this: Until you've got complete immersion and identification in 3rd gear then you aren't fully cooked. Whether that should or needs to happen to any one person at a given time (or in this lifetime) is another question entirely. But the language is pretty unequivocal and uncompromising--complete immersion in God-consciousness all of the time.

Hi Mark, are you going to post a detailed descritption of how it came about? I'm very curious. Congrats! We are pretty much practicing a 3rd gear practice according to how Kenneth has called it recently. 3rd gear includes primordial awareness (which I speculate fromepresonal experience these days to be the attention wave taking itself as object) AND direct perception mode. So I may have to agree with you there. One or the other all the way.

For me, what it seems is that people here are just talking about this state in a way that is very specific, almost culturally specific. This popped for me intellectually while talking to Kenneth. We were chatting about the present moment, and I asked "So could you rephrase all this stuff in terms of that?" He said yes, and that was a big clue.

A few days later I had the experience--which I've had since--of coming into what is the full present moment. Time doesn't exist and all one is is just now, the only energy is now, God is just present now. Self isn't there, because self requires time. Emotion isn't there because emotion requires time. But really those are just byproducts of the process; they aren't the point, I think.

I think the point is to know who you really are. When that happens, I think things arise in deeper connection in some way, not less. And that's the way it usually is: When we are fully present we connect best. There isn't a doer, things happen fluidly of their own accord.

I guess what I'm saying here is that the framing being done here about PCE is pretty Theravada, a touch on the nihilistic side, where I think better framings have been done on the Mahayana and Tantric side, where the fullness piece is emphasized, not so much what is absent but what is present. I know this might sound like a technical detail, but I think perspective matters.

I'm in on the group hug. I love you guys.

"I guess what I'm saying here is that the framing being done here about PCE is pretty Theravada, a touch on the nihilistic side, where I think better framings have been done on the Mahayana and Tantric side, where the fullness piece is emphasized, not so much what is absent but what is present. I know this might sound like a technical detail, but I think perspective matters." Mark

And what is present is peace and calm and so much space to be a happy human being for one's self and for those around us. Dammit, I don't wont to be a petty reactionary 4th pather (I am talking about myself here hehe!) Cos I have been quite the arsehole since landing the thing 3 months ago (less than pre-4th though)

Love to you all!!!! High FIVE!!!

Hi Nick.

My experience seems so common--just like so many others. I had been practicing like a banshee, in and out of major states. While driving and practicing it felt like all my stuff came up (again!) and I started praying to get off the ride. That wasn't quite the right question, so I asked "Have I done enough" and the answer came back "yes" and I felt a kind of light energetic release in my chest. I haven't felt the same since.

And yet... and yet... self-contraction continues to arise and I still find that very painful. Maybe this is just my karma or it's my expectation set, but it seems to me that as that continues to arise with such frequency you've got more to do. I associate this (still) very much with heart chakra stuff, which is what the Tantric literature (I am relearning) associates as the seat of ego as well as the most important energetic center.

I guess the one place I differ is that I am not particularly interested (in the moment) in Kenneth's version of 3rd. I just find the focus of constantly calming the energy really off-putting. Can't say why, it just doesn't sound right. On the other hand, the idea of coming into the moment and letting God's presence subsume one's individual self-sense sounds just right. I think maybe I'm just a very religious and devotional person, so that change in emphasis matters.

P.S. On a more esoteric level, I think "view" changes or draws out the "experience" somewhat differently, in a real way, however subtlely.

"On the other hand, the idea of coming into the moment and letting God's presence subsume one's individual self-sense sounds just right. I think maybe I'm just a very religious and devotional person, so that change in emphasis matters."

Just curious, have you every considered the possibility that "God's presence" is just a filter your perceptual system overlays on your sensory input? That it isn't "god" at all, just a specific part of your brain getting activated?

And if you just consider this possibility hypothetically, don't you think that seeing without the filter could be even more fun?

Would this God presence equate to the primordial awareness/rigpa/clear light? Is the God presence a sense of being one with God? Is this experience a sense of "being" something other than what was thought to be self? Does it equate with 'One Taste" according to Alan Chapman? :

openenlightenment.org/?p=540

Is it being identified with now that the self is no longer identified with phenomena? Or is what you call the God presence what others call the PCE? Inquiring minds are interested in this take.

Group hug - sure thing!

"I would say this: Until you've got complete immersion and identification in 3rd gear then you aren't fully cooked. "

Mark, what do you mean by "3rd gear?" Can you describe it? I ask because I agree that the Theravada 4 path model is limited in some ways. And in my experience that's a critical one.

Bruno--my sense is that in the moment there is no filter. I am not thinking "This is God" and then thinking that is the truth, that "I" am with "God". That is just the words I would use, as they fits with my sense of self that is there before and after the fact, since mostly I still see myself as a self. However, the Hindu Tantrics use lots of terms in addition--the eternal, the good, being-consciousness-bliss, Shiva/Shakti, the spanda (throb). Those all seem pretty good descriptors, or equally bad.

Nick--Yes, same thing, almost exact same concept with a more Panentheistic view. One Taste is a term found in the Hindu Tantric literature, common to Mahayana as well. Contra Bernadette Roberts, Atma-Brahman is not about an individual being with God, but an individual as God or God as individual. Big difference.

Interestingly, the Hindus do have a bit of a debate over whether it is better to merge individuality permanently or temporarily. Better to be sugar or taste it? More fun to taste is one answer, but the traditions offers both.

Chris--Words suck for this. I see why now because words enter the stream of time, so they can't capture. Here's a try: 3rd gear is total relaxation into the moment, the sense of self dissolves; one exists as the ever-present energy which is not in the stream of time. Meaning that there is an underlying energy that is manifesting, sustaining, and destroying creation--of which we are a part--in every moment.

Physiologically--it is energy in the body without impediment; no significant stress points. There is a difference between a completed circuit and a fully perfused circuit, I think. Completed circuit meaning the basic tracks are laid down. Perfused means the energetic body is fully open, full, nonimpeded. One is a precursor to the other.

My current view is really now pretty traditional. One needs to immerse in the state over and over again until a certain amount of karma (stored psychology) is burned up so that this BIG NOW is mostly what one experiences. Could take a while (long time!) depending on karma. Important: I've seen people who I think are immersed in this experience who are engaged with the world pretty heavily--I don't think one precludes the other. But I've heard of others who seem pretty gone. Context matters and so does innate groundedness in some other way.

Sorry Nick--I have totally highjacked your thread!

No, go ahead and use it to discuss. I'm gonna start a new thread after this anyway. Keep going!