Even's journal: Avoidant personality disorder,most likely at 2nd path.

I went into this business mainly because I suffer from Avoidant Personality Disorder. Because of this diagnosis, as a byproduct, I suffer a lot from chronic depression and social anxiety. These are all problem I've been carrying with me through my whole life.
A few years ago I finally decided that: 'Enough is enough; it's time to get to the bottom of this stuff!'

I then started to do some analysis of myself, and I found that at the core of my diagnosis are two unquestioned beliefs (schemas) I have about myself, namely Defectiveness and Abandonment. That means I'm highly sensitive towards making mistakes, saying something wrong, being rejected, being met by a grim face or a negative tone of voice and so on. The theory is that changing these two beliefs will remove all of my sufferings, since they are the real cause of it all. These two beliefs have a very high correlation toward depression (according to research papers I've read), so I would gain tremendous benefits from changing these beliefs. Unluckily, it's really hard to change these things, since it's deeply rooted into my unconsciousness and genetics, and it takes years of work to get real relief.

After successfully diagnosing myself in that way, I started to look for ways to change these issues. I first started off with Autogenic Training, which is a kind of relaxation technique. I quickly managed to get up to some really relaxing states, which felt very similar to access concentration. It peeked when I got some really nice feelings of floating and being turned 180 degrees around and stuff. But despite these nice effects, it still didn't do much to my suffering. I was still highly anxious and depressed.
I then turned toward CBT (Cognitive Therapy), with the idea that changing your thoughts will change your emotions. I did a lot of CBT on my own, e.g. by opening myself to friend, making an evidence list against my illusion of being defective and so on.

tbc...

That helped a lot on the thinking level, but still, it didn't change my emotions much. The problem is that I rationally know that I'm not worthless, but I still feel worthless at the core level.

After seeing that CBT didn't help much, I started to do more searching. I then got really interested into Buddhist meditation, and I thought that meditation might be the solution to my suffering. Meditation made perfect sense to me, because I've seen over the years that it's impossible for me to find the solution in something external, and the only one to give me the answer is I.

I then started off with the book 'Mindfulness in plain English' and Anapanasati on a daily basis. At first I struggled a lot with the monkey mind. Later I managed to get some really nice states (access concentration), where I got lots of nice feelings and a feeling of 'floating' up from the ground. That was the first time for a long time that I've felt really good about myself, but the problem was that it didn't last very long. After a few months of practice, I got a few glimpses of 1st jhana which was extremely nice!

Later I read that Jhana states, which in itself is very delightful, doesn't lead to liberation from suffering; it only temporarily blocks the hindrances. So then I got really interested into Vipassana, since that might be what I'm looking for. I then completely stopped the Samatha practice, ready to do Vipassana instead.

When I first started Vipassana, I struggled a lot with the hindrances restlessness and sleepiness. My Defectiveness schema causes me to unconsciously protect myself through sleepiness, which makes it really hard to make contact with the meditation object (e.g. the rising/falling stomach). I then started to note: 'Sleepy, sleepy'¦', while keeping contact with the mental fog in my head. After a while I suddenly collapsed into tears.

tbc...

That extreme crying session lasted for at least one hour straight, and I've never cried that much before in my life. So, it seems to me that the sleepiness was defending the underlying sadness.

After the crying session, I encountered my next hindrance: extreme amounts of shaking. Especially my feet were shaking, but also my hands and my eye lids. I could experience extreme shaking for many hours at a time, with no ability whatsoever to stay with the meditation object. I also experienced that same shaking during my previous Autogenic training.

After maybe 40-50 hours of alternating shaking and crying, I finally managed to stay still in my sitting meditation posture and stay with the meditation object. I think I was at the third knowledge then. Then I started to note every occurring object, like 'thinking' and so on.

After spending some time on the noting, I suddenly started to feel very good during the practice. I didn't feel restless at all, and it started to be almost as blissful as the jhana states. Even walking meditation, which I've always thought was very boring, felt extremely nice. I recall having thoughts like: 'What's the point in craving for all those external things in life, when just standing here is so wonderful?!'. I also felt the urge to tell others about my experience, and all of this seems to be 'the ten corruptions of insight'. So I started to note all of these things, and after a while these things went away.

tbc...

As I continued the noting, my mind started to become faster and faster. Previously, I was only able to note 1-2 objects each second. But now, my mind become supercharged, and I was able to note maybe 5-10 objects each second. In fact, my mind was so fast that the labeling practice was slowing me down, so I decided to stop labeling things with words. I then noticed that things was very short lived, e.g. when noting 'itchy', that itchyness went away just a few milliseconds afterwards. In that way, I was also able to keep all kinds of pain away for much longer time than previously, and it felt as if my mind was a kind of laser that destroyed everything it touched. That was probably the A&P and Dissolution.

After a while in A/P, I noticed that there was less and less objects to note. Even though I could 'see' that there was objects outside of my perspective, as soon as I placed my mind on these objects they just wasn't there anymore. I felt like a donut at that time.

Later, I entered the dark knight. I recall feeling very good while listening to a song on my computer, but then suddenly out of nowhere collapsing into tears again. From then on, everything started to feel crappy. My favorite songs didn't sound any good, my favorite pizza didn't taste any good and hot chicks didn't look attractive anymore. That lasted for a week or two. It was also hard to motivate myself to meditate during that time because there just wasn't anything to note.

After a while, I think I reached the re-observation. The extreme shakings, which was prominent only during the 1st to 3rd insight knowledge, reappeared again at the re-observation. Also, I got this extreme restlessness and lack of motivation, and I was very close to give up the meditation practice once and for all. I got a new crying session as well, plus a lot of pain and sleepiness during the meditation. As a summary, re-observation felt restless and chaotic.

tbc...

After spending maybe 30-40 hours of shaking, crying and pain in the re-observation, things finally started to feel more at ease. I recall noting 'pain, pain, pain', and then suddenly the pain felt very diffuse and soft. I also saw some brightness, as if I've just moved into the sun. I noticed that e.g. the touching point of my knee against the floor almost went away or at least felt very subtle. And it was a lot easier to sit for long periods of time without getting restless. The best summary of equanimity is: clearness, brightness, calmness, okayness and peacefulness.

After spending some hours in the equanimity, I noticed that I became more and more absorbed, just like in access concentration. It then started to feel as if something was a sort of 'building up' towards something. The eyes started to contract harder and harder, as I got increasingly more concentrated, up until a point where I got a short unconscious blink lasting maybe a millisecond or so. I didn't feel any bliss or anything, but I suddenly realized that I had a strong feeling of a relief and clarity. In a way, something deep inside felt relieved.

In the re-observation and equanimity, it was pretty easy to 'surf' the presence (middle part) of each meditation object, but now I realized that I couldn't surf the objects in the same way anymore. That's probably because I reappeared at the A/P-stage again, and that further increased my suspicion that I actually achieved the 1st path. I also notice that I had a lot of energy after that meditation session, and it took many hours until I was able to sleep that night.

tbc...

I then started meditating at the newly acquired A/P stage, and I quickly became a 'donut' again. It took only a few hours before I gained the re-observation again. Sometimes, especially when I was too eager for progress, I quickly went all the way up to equanimity until I got multiple 'blinks' (cessation?). I realized that it was probably just a review, since I didn't make any real progress through this rushing.

After some time, I appeared at the re-observation again. I experienced all of the same things as before the 1st path, meaning the shaking, sleepiness, some crying and restlessness.

After some more hours, I gained the equanimity. The equanimity stage before the 1st path lasted only a few hours, but this time the equanimity lasted for many tens of hours. I got lots of 'blank shots', where I thought I got the second path without actually getting it.

After getting many lots of these 'blank shots', I started to get really tired of them. But then suddenly something felt very different, and I got this extreme amount of pleasure which was actually better than the 1st jhana. I recall feeling as if I were lying on my back, even though I was still in a perfect sitting posture. Unlike the first path, which didn't involve any bliss, this occurrence was extremely nice. After that session, I mostly walked around smiling.

I've reported my progress to Kenneth, which agreed that I've most likely attained the 2nd path.

tbc...

While at the top of the jhanic arc, I started to flirt with the idea of accessing NS. Suddenly I felt my eyes contracting a bit, and things started to feel a lot darker. After a while, things started to become more and more dark, diffuse and far away. And I suddenly realized that there was a gap in my 'rising/falling' noting, plus my posture was suddenly more collapsed. It felt a bit like fruition, but maybe more similar to the last second before falling into sleep. But I know for sure that it wasn't sleep. Then I was dipping in and out of consciousness and not consciousness. And each time I got out of this state, I had thoughts like: 'Oh crap, I'm not noting the stomach anymore. Crap, my body posture is even more collapsed'. Then I decided to straighten up my posture, but then I suddenly realized that I had another dip into the state at which I was almost lying at the floor afterwards.

A few questions regarding my practice:

1) What were your experiences after 2nd path? How often did you finish a new cycle?
2) Have you experienced that the cycles have stopped to appear?
3) For those of you that have experienced NS, does my story correlate with yours?

That's all I got, for now

After getting 2nd path, my cycles started to come faster and faster. The first two cycles took one week each. Then I got a new cycle every 2 minute. After that, things speeded up, up to the point of getting 5-10 cycles each second. The A&P and Dissolution stage even disappeared, and the only thing left was Re-observation and Equanimity. So, it goes like this: a quick moment of body shaking in the re-observation, and then a feeling of buildup around my eyes, until my eyes become relaxed again and I reappear at re-observation. So, it's kind of like a 'mini-cycle' that takes just a few milliseconds to complete.

After some hours of having 5-10 cycles a second, I got a new extremely blissful fruition similar to what gave me 2nd path. One interesting thing happening after that fruition was that the cycles actually disappeared from then on! While I were previously spending maybe 40% of my meditation time in re-observation with the associated shakings and crying, nowadays the knowledges just aren't there anymore. It feels like I'm kind of surfing on the top of the knowledges, without being affected by them anymore. What's left now seems to be just the jhanic arc.

No matter how deeply I try to investigate, I only feel the jhanas. It seems like I'm climbing higher on the jhanic arc the more I investigate and concentrate. I'm not 100% sure, but it seems like I've tasted all of the 8 jhanas plus possibly some of the pure abodes. As I get to the top of the jhanic arc, I get a feeling of being a 3 meter high rock hard statue, and it feels very restful. That sounds quite similar Nikolai's description of the pure abodes, but it's hard to tell.

tbc...

What a fantastic report! A lot of what you wrote correlates strongly to my practice history, which is always cool to hear. Though, I didn't go through so much shaking and crying. It is VERY common, though.

As far as your questions go:

1.) After 2nd path, review cycles were very quick. Somewhere around 1-2 minutes, often less than a minute. I didn't pay a lot of attention to cycling when I wasn't practicing formally.
2.) There have been periods where I haven't noticed cycles at all. Then, they start back up. I'm not totally sure why this happens. It's not a big deal.
3.) Too early to say whether or not that was NS. Keep taking notes on your experiences and let us know how it goes.

Practice well!
~Jackson

Thanks for your encouraging words!

Jackson: 'There have been periods where I haven't noticed cycles at all. Then, they start back up. I'm not totally sure why this happens. It's not a big deal.'

That's my experience as well. When I start a new session, I often get a few seconds or minutes of re-observation 'flashbacks', until the cycles dissolves completely again. It seems like the cycles reappear whenever my concentration is laxing, which often is the case at during the first few minutes of each session.


Jackson: 'Too early to say whether or not that was NS. Keep taking notes on your experiences and let us know how it goes.'

Yeah, because it might be just fruitions instead. I did a new session now, and I got up to the same NS/Fruition-like state. I'm pretty sure it's not sleepiness, because whenever I'm sleepy I'm not able to note anything. But in this state I'm perfectly mindful and alert at the moment before and after the cessation, but not during. It's kind of funny, because my mind desperately tries to note 'rising falling', and the only thing I hear is 'ri'¦' followed by '..sing' a few moments later after 'waking up'.

Yeah, fruitions can happen at the 8th jhana level, so it's difficult to tell the difference. Whether it is or isn't, I'm happy that you're practicing

Hi Even,
I love your story. Courage, perseverance, patience, inquiry. Love it. You are utterly inspiring. Just out of curiosity, have all the symptoms of your avoidance disorder dissipated?
paul

Hello Cartago, and thanks for your kindness

That's a good question. I haven't got any significant relief from my disorder yet, but my hope is that I eventually will gain improvements. Previously, I tried to force myself to be more outgoing and attend to lots of social gatherings or parties, since I thought that would do the trick. Nowadays I've stopped that, since the only way for me to get a relief is through healing those deeply rooted emotions. So, now my days go basically like this: sleeping, working for 8 hours, meditating for 4-5 hours, until it repeats over the next day. My hope is that I will start to see some effect from this training, so that I can start to enjoy life more fully again. Because I'm a very tired of being on this emotional rollercoaster where I'm highly sensitive of how people around behaves.

I've seen a few changes in my life. One change is that something deep inside feels different, although it's hard to describe it. Life feels generally a sort of less real now compared to before I started the practice. I've also noticed that I'm more neutral toward external events than previously. E.g. the last summer I did a few carousels and roller coasters during the summer, and standing there waiting in the queue made me very anxious and shaky about the upcoming ride. This summer I did the same, but I weren't nervous about the ride at all. Even the scariest carousels were no problem at all! So, it seems like I'm having less of this 'ups and downs' now, and I'm getting more emotionally stable. That's a good sign, in my view!

According to Kenneth, it's probably necessary to work all the way up to Arahatship before experiencing significant relief from this stuff, although some of his students gain relief from emotional issues before that.

Even

Nick: Regarding your PM. Yeah, I've been reading your log for quite a few weeks now, and I find it very inspiring! I really like your way of writing, since you have a magical ability to get the point through. I also liked your jhanic arc video on Youtube a lot! You mentioned that your cycles appeared in a mirroring way after 2nd path, and that's kind of like my experience as well. Or, it's hard to tell what's happening really, because I might jump almost randomly between the insight knowledges. Previously, the insight knowledges always appeared in a linear predictable fashion, but that's not the case anymore.

Thanks for your tips regarding dwelling as the witness and noting carefully both pleasant and rough spots during the practice.

Even

Jackson was right; the cycles do start up again. Today I revisited A&P and Dissolution again, but they went away after 15 minutes. I also got lots of flashbacks from re-observation, with the associated shaking and crying. The cycles come and go these days. Sometimes it's all cool and quiet, whereas other times I'm jumping like a maniac between re-observation and equanimity. I've also read the book Power of Now today, as recommended by Kenneth. I liked that book.

I did another visit to what seems to be NS. It goes like this: The awareness of the body gets more and more diffuse and 'far away' as I go deeper into the jhanic arc. After a while, things start to get darker and darker, until I can't sense any external input like sounds or pains anymore. It all feels a kind of like being a small dark chocolate, and then gradually pack yourself into the chocolate paper until you can't sense anything from the outside anymore. The last moment before I lose consciousness, there's just a knowing, with no sense input whatsoever. I'm having full control until the very moment that the consciousness goes blank. Then I 'wake up' from the state a few moments afterwards, with a few milliseconds of feeling: 'where am I, and did just happened?'. It all feels a bit different from fruitions, in that fruitions are a lot more surprising. With that, I mean that it's pretty hard to predict exactly when a fruition is going to happen, whereas in this state it's a lot easier to predict when I can expect the consciousness to go blank.

I did 7 hours of meditation today. The first 45 minutes was very peaceful, with no sign of cycles whatsoever. Then the next 5 hours was heavily influenced by re-observation, with no crying but lots and lots of shaking. The last hour things settled down, as I went up to equanimity. I LOVE the transition from re-observation to equanimity, since it's really nice to finally feel calm again after the restless storm.

I've been meditating for 15 hours since my last post. The heavy storm has finally settled down, and things are getting very quiet and relaxing during meditation these days. I haven't experienced any extreme shaking or crying in many days. It's also really hard to diagnose where I am in the cycle these days. I'm not a donut anymore, so my guess is an equanimity-ish kind of knowledge.

During sitting, I'm automatically going straight up to 8th jhana, where I keep noting my rising and falling stomach. In the 8th Jhana, it's really hard to make contact with my stomach, since the sensations are extremely subtle. The last days I've also had some extremely nice visits to what I think is the pure land.

Here comes my Pure Land experiences, and I would be very glad if someone like Nick could read it over and see if he can relate to it in any way. It may be that what I'm describing is not actually Pure Land, so that is something I hope to be able to clarify:

1th Pure Land:
In 8th Jhana, everything feels very dark, closed and subtle. When transiting to 1st Pure Land, it feels like these three characteristics are going away. It feels as if moving to a bright and open field. My body feels very tall, and I can relate to Nick's description of 'moving up from the sunroof'. There's more awareness of the body in this Jhana, compared to the subtleness of the 8th Jhana. It's a lot easier to make contact with the rising and falling stomach as well.

2nd Pure Land:
The difference here, is that I seem to lose a lot of the awareness I had of my lower body. Instead, the awareness is more directed toward my upper body. That seems similar to Nick's description.

(cont)

3rd Pure Land:
This is an interesting Jhana. It feels like I'm pushed down to the ground. It also feels like I'm very short in length, compared to the tallness of especially 1th Pure Land. I feel very much like a short dwarf, looking up to all the other tall people around me. I also feel that sense of stableness and concreteness as Nick mentioned. It feels like it would be close to impossible to fall over. I like this Jhana a lot, and the first time I reached it I got an extreme amount of bliss. These days the bliss has settled down a few notches, but I still get the urge to spend lots of time in this state.

4th Pure Land:
Instead of being very close to the ground, like in the previous Jhana, it now feels like I'm getting up again. It feels almost as if I'm flying off from the ground a bit. My body feels very light and soft, almost like a weightless angel. It also feels like I'm raising my chest up into the air, in a flying position a sort of. My breathing feels very subtle and soft compared to the previous ones. I wouldn't say that the breath is blissful, but it still feels very light. Overall, this Jhana is very delightful.

5th Pure Land:
This one is hard to describe. I notice that there's very good awareness of the body, about the same as in the material Jhanas. I also feel that cleanness of this state. And I feel that witness or knowing. It still feels very open and bright, not like the darkness of the 8th Jhana.

(cont)

6th Pure Land???:
After staying in the previous one, I made the resolution: 'May I go deeper'¦'. Then I felt a clear shift, where things got very dark. The darkness is comparable to the 8th Jhana, but it's not the same. While having the sense of being in an open space in Pure Land 1-5, it now feels like I'm sinking down to a very closed and dark space. The best way to describe it is that it feels like sinking down to the bottom of a 1000 meter deep ocean, staying there without ability to see anything around you. I never sense that I lose consciousness in this state, so it's definitely not a fruition or NS. It may very well be that this is just a compound state or some sort of imagined one, but I'm not sure.

Hmmm...

What you describe as the first pureland sounds relatively similar to what I experience. However, after that you lost me completely.

I know that both Nick and I have experience a strange, deep, dark, quiet, vacant type of state and haven't really been able to figure out what it is. A while ago, it came out of nowhere after fruition during many sits. I think it's been many months since it's shown up. That sounds kind of like what you describe in your last comment, but who knows? I'm not even sure what to call it. But I definitely wouldn't call it a 6th pureland.

From here on out, make sure you're not manipulating your experience. Intention is a powerful thing. If you intended to be in a new state, a new one will show up. It doesn't necessarily mean it's one of the jhanas. Learning to tell the difference takes some time. Just sit, and allow the mind's eye to travel up and down the jhanic arc. Where does it take you? Where does it stop and then reverse? Do not intend to do anything other than pay attention. See what happens.

~Jackson

Thanks for your tips Jackson!

That's what I suspected, that it might be just some kind of imagined states. I'll try to be less manipulative and put less intention to the sessions from now on, and let things appear on its own pace. On the other hand, I've experienced some of these states even while having no intentions at all, and especially the 3rd one I described above. Anyway, I'll try to follow your advice from now on, to see where it's leading.

Nick sent me this PM:

---

Hi Even,

It seems like I have been banned from posting on your thread for some reason. No other thread is like it for me. I can't seem to be able to "post" messages on your thread. Check and see if you maybe inadvertently "blocked" me.

Here was the post I was gonna post. Can you post it in my name? Thanks!

I like your pure abode descriptions. This supposed 6th pure abode sounds like a pre-nirodha absorbtion. You just didn't go all the way. As i approach nirodha and complete cessation the mind dives down sinking into a very absorbed ever darkening state. Things start to switch off, for me. Then eventually the mind will "hit" something and a cessation moment occurs. I have to keep concentration up for this to happen. If I relax it, then the mind seems to dwell in this pre-nirodha state. Try keeping your attention on the "sweet spot", Even, when this happens again. Focus on it and maybe move the attention back and forth cors it like a torch light. Make it feel like it physically moves! Experiemnt with it. Are you feeling aloof these days?



It is not the state Jackson mentioned that we both have experienced. I'd forgotten about that strange state. i haven't experienced that state for ages. But just checking now and I can will the mind into it in seconds. Originally I had to wait for a fruition to occur and I would will the mind into that pre-fruition energy build up in the head and "postpone the fruition. But now, I just will it to that state, and it goes right there. Strange strange state indeed. Here's that thread where we talked about it.

kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/thread/36...here+a+difference%3F

My first experience of pureland jhana was a complete mistake. At the time, I was becoming increasingly interested in the role that intention plays in accessing various states or gaining new attainments. One afternoon, I was particularly interested in attaining Nirodha Samapatti, for whatever reason, and I made a strong resolution to attain the state in my next sit. I sat down, and quickly zoomed up through jhanas 1-8. Than, rather than relaxing in the 8th jhana, I started to look around. Investigation was strong. Out of nowhere, I felt as though I was pulled upward out of the jhanic space and into a new plane of reality entirely. I was stunned.

Upon returning from practice, I reflected on what just occurred. Was it NS? No, it couldn't have been. I was totally conscious, and there is no conscious experience in the total cessation of perception and feeling. I thought that maybe it was NS, and I was just confused about what it really was. So, I read the chapter of Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha dealing with NS. Part-way through, Daniel brings up the topic of pureland jhanas, and then it hit me. Holy $%&!, that was the first pureland jhana! I immediately consulted Kenneth via email, and the exploration of post-eighth jhana states began.

(continued below)

It's not that I didn't know about them before this, because I kind of did. Kenneth had mentioned them in the old Dharma Overground forum, and I had read MCTB a few times before. But I had no conscious intention to access a pureland jhana. It just showed up. And that's why I am usually skeptical when someone has read clear descriptions of the states, and then somehow thinks they have access to them all. Whether or not you (Even) or anyone else actually does have access to them is not something I can know for sure. I just know how easy it is to fabricate an experience via conscious intention. Because pureland jhanas are uniquely composed different subtle energy configurations, it's quite possible (and not that difficult) to fabricate a state with similar configurations and label it "pureland jhana."

This is in no way a challenge. I don't do dharma combat. But I would like to get to know your practice a bit better before concluding that what's happening here is pureland jhana. My opinion doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things, but I do try to be an aid to those on the path whenever possible. So that's my experience, take it or leave it.

I'm looking forward to future posts, with hopes that you'll get this all sorted out in one way or another, pureland jhana or otherwise.

~Jackson

Nick:
Thanks for your reply; I appreciate your guidance a lot!

Well, that's strange. I looked through my settings, and I don't have anyone on my 'blocked list'. I can't see why you're not able to post on my thread, but it might be that I've overlooked some settings somewhere.

I don't think it was a pre-stage of NS I experienced in the '6th Pure Land'. I've previously had experiences that correlate a lot with your descriptions of NS. Today I tried that 'flashlight beam' method, and I definitely felt that gradual sense of disconnection again. But the experience I got in the '6th Pure Land' wasn't at all like that. But it's extremely hard to put words to all of these experiences, since it's a subject of subjectivity. Plus, English is not my primary language, which makes it really hard to find the right words to describe my phenomena afterwards. I think I will follow Jackson's advice on not trying to hunt these experiences, and instead let whatever happens happen.

'Are you feeling aloof these days?'
Because of my personality disorder, I'm always very aloof, absent minded and clumsy. So I guess the aloofness I might get through meditation is just a small drop in the big ocean. But I do feel pretty 'strange' in my head immediately after some of the sittings, largely dependent on how deep my concentration was. The deeper the concentration was, the more time it takes after the session to 'land' again.

Thanks Jackson, for your last two posts!

Question:
1) When I tried the'fruition inducing method', I definitely felt the hard Dukkha stops.But I also felt another type,which was more gradual.I suspect that could be either the Anatta or Anicca fruitions. That fruition felt kind of similar to the gradual disconnection I feel when I try to induce NS through the flashlight method. What is the biggest difference between the experience of Anatta/Anicca fruitions and NS? Do they experientially feel the same way?