a question for arahans - kenneth!

... I was not.
Sorry i have to correct myself (memory is out of our control) he talked about his suffering/depressions and that they vanished after his "4path" experience.
I only wanted to exclude all possibilities, so wanted to ask him for a direct statement, that he never got in detail because he may saw no need. Teacher often not mention the uncomfortable part (get rid of sensual desires) not to distract beginners. But he said he talk about high level and so, so one has to mention it.
I guess i am again very unpolite to write down my knowledge my experience because it not fits in your "world" is "oldschool" outofdate.

... I accept if im wrong but please give me reasons which are provable in direction to the law of cause and effect! Dhamma you can proove!!!

"The doctrine of no-self is the best of all doctrines. It is without peer. There is none better. He who is attached to the doctrine of no-self... incurable!" -The Buddha (paraphrased from memory)

I cannot help you Lung Pi. The world is full of people who would rather believe their own thoughts than sit on a cushion. I cannot help any of them. This forum is for people who want to find out for themselves and are not willing to settle for words or regurgitated ideas. These are the people I would like to give my time to.

From the Q&A page of this site:

Some people may disagree with this site's mission, in which case they would do better to find another online forum to post to. This site is not intended as a forum to discuss the merits of this site, but rather to share teachings and explore together with people who already share the vision of balanced dharma that includes direct path, self-enquiry, and concentration/insight teachings.

"hello kenneth happy to see that you read this post, but sad not getting answers...

"arahat" it must refer to something real and reproducible, something that happens to real people both in the Buddha's time and ours.

Right! this is why i like dhamma! No room for doupts!

"Who defines what a tree is?" It's a nonsense question.

... Hmm forgive me if i must disagree with these thoughts.
I explain. a tree can not live in the air, not in the ocean, in the space. A tree can not have no roots or no leafs. A tree can not grow live without the sun without water without earth without the right temperature. ... What i want to point out is that a tree has certain characteristics/qualities. If one characteristic/factor is missing you can not call it anymore a tree!!!! Its something else!!! A word is connected with certain characteristics which are reproducable/ must be the same. There are many words in different languanges for a tree but they all point to the same characteristics!!!! Enlightenment 4path liberatin arahan ...... If the characteristics which they point at are not the same than that particular word is not used correctly means how it was communly agreed (conventions). A little bit tricky to explain for me because of my limited skills! I hope you got elwhat i mean!!!!
Means you used the word arahan. So the common characteristics of this word must match in order that you used it in the right context. There are your experiences insights which resulted in certain characteristics. If your characteristics not match with arahan than you have used it wrongly!!! Your characteristics are real are correct, the word arahan is real is correct but the connection can be wrong!!!!
Its in my very interest that people come out of suffering reach liberation arahan. i would like that you are one but your characteristics does not match with the common characteristics of an arahan!"

continue

""i would like that you are one but your characteristics does not match with the common characteristics of an arahan!""

Right. I think thats why we like him so much. We are trying to be humans not superhumans.
.

since thousand of years these characteristics are common with all arahans/ trees!!!

Please undertand me why i doupt! As you have the right to claim i have the right to doupt.
You stand against the scriptures life examples noble monk statements the dhamma of cause and effect in itself, with your claim!!!
Sorry i feel a huge overweight against the right use of this word in connection with yourself!!!
Failtures are very human but to ignore them is stupid!!!


...
Thanks for your reply i very appreciate this. Dont get me wrong i not want to offend attack hurt you being inpolite ... I just want to clarify facts.

Cmarti said things like this are needed here: additions!
I am a european came around in the world; recently study/practise since years in asia; living together with/ under guidance of extraordianary meditation masters, (noble monks); because of observing life questioning and seeing some things i dedicated my young life to the dhamma vinaya; iam a not yet beautiful exampleful monk because internet! (i life since years in the jungle with rarly westerners around me. Thats also why my communication skill denergrated)
Anyway these are only outside things tell not much more than about my dedicated determination endurance aim conviction effort faith (some) insight ... Im public watched people can check me to some degree its possible to see actions not only words .... But fundamental im same like everyone i not want to say im better or purer or whatever! Please forgive me be open minded that there are still some who try follow the oldschool training which the buddha offered us. Monkhood is a training/support not something to show up or.... Why i say this because i read so many negative statements about it. I know out of experience the defilements dont like it!! Your defilements feel like in a jail!!! They try to break out!

"Right. I think thats why we like him so much. We are trying to be humans not superhumans.
."

*g* thats what i have already said. Defilements dont like to get kicked out. So they prefer not to change anything. Prefer to be close to sensual pleasures.
Pleasures are not the problem its only hard to make the defilements out!!! If you stop feeding them you force them to come out of the dark!!! ... And if you endure they eventually die!

I know you are happy here!!! But i doupt if this is the happiness which is free from attachment/ tanha!

I need to say it: this place is a very good place. Very useful very nice. Many highly talented people here including kenneth. He has so many good qualities i even see no bad ones. I only give to consideration that some conclusions may be wrong. Thats not bad thats human! We are in a learningprocess.

Anyway as i said my free is limited i come out of my daily routine. I have to stop even i not want. Writing is easier than doing! *g*

I think what i wanted to say is said. Kenneth can compare with the scriptures the map the checking tool. i offer you also to get some new experience learn something from highly experienced monks. My preceptor/teacher was a hardcore practioner more than 20 years he lied not down to sleep tested all meditation technics to the limit did frequently things like you heard many days in samathi ... Too much to list. Means you may get something useful for yourslef or at least your students. Anyway if you like to make a vacation to asia tell me.

"i offer you also to get some new experience learn something from highly experienced monks. My preceptor/teacher was a hardcore practioner more than 20 years he lied not down to sleep tested all meditation technics to the limit did frequently things like you heard many days in samathi ... Too much to list. Means you may get something useful for yourslef or at least your students. Anyway if you like to make a vacation to asia tell me.
"

Thanks for the offer lungPi,

It is good that you make the offer and maybe some will accept the chance. I suspect the majority on this forum have responsibilites like husbands, wives, sons and daughters etc, so in consideration of these responsibilities it is differcult to take off and be in another place for a length of time (even a vacation). Perhaps western culture also values these worldly commitments differently. Also many of us have results from practice and that is probably the single biggest reason we hang around.

I would be very interested in any PRCATICAL suggestions you have for improving our practice. For the culture we live in ( we practice and have sort of "normal" lives ), do you think the instructions we have might be inefficient in some way? If so what you write here can reach many people. If you should write it would probably be wise to understand well, how we do practice. There is no need to argue what is wrong you can just state what you believe to be right. I think mostly because we are of different cultures the theoretical views you write are differcult for me to grasp. However I am sure a technique the has fast results would get my attention. Although I am not sure if this is what you were offering.

This thread confirms one HUGE thing for me -- I DON'T KNOW.

"Also many of us have results from practice and that is probably the single biggest reason we hang around.

Great go on!!!

I would be very interested in any PRCATICAL suggestions you have for improving our practice.

However I am sure a technique the has fast results would get my attention.

"

hello garyrh!

Ok its not for what i came but i will give you a present to improve your (and/or some others) practise.
It will not only fit with your practise and lifestyle it will answer your question and finishs your search for the fastest technic as well!
The ultimate answer for the quickest way! Many people searching for it! Maybe every practioner ever has!

Now listen careful! ... Very careful!


"There is n o fast or slow technique,

there
is
only
a
fast
or
slow


practioner."


Cmarti
Great! when i said that to myself it was the start to really learn sth useful for life! But maybe different context! for me it was when i saw that my knowledge or knowing which was the sourge for my confident ego and thinking that "i know" is not a cent worth because all my complete knowledge can not help me out of my missery at all!

... Or in other words how big my actual missery is. Actually before that moment i not even really felt to be in a missery! Because "i knew"! Full tea cup! "i dont know" = empty tea cup!

I think Kate actually brought up some great points. The word arahat is as loaded in buddhist communities as the word love is among the general population. We all have our pre-concieved notions of what it looks like, how it talks, how it acts... When we say arahat we are using the word in a different sense than most people use it... I think it is the correct sense... but that is natural because I am part of this community... arahatship is seen differently by different people... One last thing Lung and I say this hoping you understand we are serious here. I talked to a monk this may... I told him about some experiences I was having in meditation... he confirmed that I was a stream enter... This man was a orthodox vinaya monk... he asked me to take robes and ordain. I thought about it. But a few things stopped me. One although I could sense he was very attained he obviously had a lot of psychological issues. He looked down on women, he hated the mahayana, etc... Two... I have made excellent progress in lay life... I don't need to adopt the problems of a monks life (its very hard to come back from being a monk)... The last stage of enlightenment in Zen is coming back into the marketplace with open hands... I say--why leave?

If you are being trained by some (I am sure) very attained monks, then I say have fun... just remember the Lord Buddha's Kalama sutra... don't believe your teachers, your scriptures, customs, etc...investigate for yourself!

if we talk about arahan on a serious pag like here we should use this word seriosly.
The most emminent distinctiv characteristic is that you have eliminated the cause of suffering. What is the cause? Not woman nor mahajana nor big or small.... but
Tanha (frequently translated as "craving").
So sensual lust (kamatanha) is one kind of craving which even an anagami is already complete free of.
U not loose your attainment nor go to hell (like you said ones to someone) if you have sex it just blocks you from becoming free to the degree of an anagami and above.
An anagami has no interest in sex nor even looks out for it. It is so attractiv as **** for normal people. No value at all for him.
all the pali words i refering to you all can look up in buddhist dictionary (google for it and download the free pdf file of it) from nyanatiloka if i remember right. If you would be able to speak local asien languages there are mountains of sources from noble monks who talk about enlightenment stages.

goal orientated. What you think would the buddha have picked up/talked about/warned about this topic (sensual lust desire sex) in such a quantity if it has nothing to do with suffering or how to get free of it??

Times up...

Why spend time discussing the supposed features of an arahant? Why not just do the practices and reap the benefits?

In other words, if you seek to permanently eliminate lust and the like, lungPi, please go ahead and do that. I'm serious. I don't mean to say that in a dismissive tone but rather an encouraging one. Do what you need to do, and get that done.

If people on the path want to be able to fly, levitate, experience fruitions or abide in pure land jhanas, they ought to simply learn how and do those things. If people on the path want to live as monks / nuns or want to live married with children, they ought to simply go ahead. These are personal choices, IMHO, and possibly very worth living, but not worth debating.

Just like there was most likely no "jesus," there was never a "buddha" as depicted in myths and most of the stuff about what arhans can or cannot do or feel, etc. is myth as well.
What is real? you re going to have to sit down and find out for yourself, it's not in any book or legend or sutra. Sorry somebody had to say it.

"Just like there was most likely no "jesus," there was never a "buddha" as depicted in myths and most of the stuff about what arhans can or cannot do or feel, etc. is myth as well.
What is real? you re going to have to sit down and find out for yourself, it's not in any book or legend or sutra. Sorry somebody had to say it. "

Can I add Mike; Myth or not a myth the result is the same - you sit down and find out for yourself. BTW I would not think it not unreasonable that there was a historictal Buddha and Jesus, but some of what gets attributed to them is questionable. I can see there being a debate over this when it really does not matter.

[edit] - I realise now this is exactly what you were saying, "as dipicted in the myths"

"hello garyrh!

Ok its not for what i came but i will give you a present to improve your (and/or some others) practise.
It will not only fit with your practise and lifestyle it will answer your question and finishs your search for the fastest technic as well!
The ultimate answer for the quickest way! Many people searching for it! Maybe every practioner ever has!

Now listen careful! ... Very careful!


"There is n o fast or slow technique,

there
is
only
a
fast
or
slow


practioner."
"

Thanks,

There are plently of places to be a monk here in Australia, so the invitation to go to Asia was only to meet some people you know.

i must really be insane! I follow a mirage. Practise to become more deluded. Where do i have lost my brain that my thoughts do such differ with yours???

You question that there is no cause but i see the result - buddhism exists!

????

I wasted my time... *sadlyheadshaking*
May you all be happy! I wish you nothing less...

I think this thread has run its course, so I'm going to close it. Lung Pi had both the first and final word, and there was some interesting discussion. Bottom line, though, this forum is not a platform for people to present their fundamentalist views. It is a place for people to learn and share about pragmatic dharma. The people who are drawn to this community tend to value experience over ideas and practice over discussion. There are many fine folks in the world who do not share the pragmatic values we tend to cherish here and they would do best to find another forum to post to.