The Sankhara thread

"...the belief that one must eradicate most if not all sankharas to experience the 'deathless" has caused many in my opinion to put off going for stream entry as how could one get stream entry with all the sankharas i have within me. This annoys me for some reason. It always did. It is a self-feating mindset to think it isn't doable in this lifetime. And if it is it is only doable because of my paramis. . "

It was in MN-117 Maha-cattarisaka sutta where Buddha said "the fruit of stream entry has absolutely no taints and the fruition of stream entry has absolutely no taints, but even after stream entry the sotapanna still has taints..."

That's how I keep myself from being intimidated by trying to attain stream entry. I keep in mind that the fruit and fruition are the part of the equation without sankharas. As far as I can tell it's a given that I'll have sankharas before stream entry, and it's also assured that I still have them afterward.

Joel's quote makes that approach/outlook seem even more sound.

I found some more information regarding different uses of 'sankhara' in Buddhist teaching...

www.buddhamind.info/leftside/teachings/d-avij.htm

It sounds like the 'sankhara' that Goenka refers to is in the context of c0-dependent origination (paticca samuppada). In this context, sankhara (forming) is synonymous with kamma (karma). The article states that, "As part of a (this-life) evolving sequence - ending in dukkha - sankhara is more the dynamic process of mental formation (fabrication, assembling) which arises through the misconceptions of avijja." So, perhaps Goenka is referring to those kammic/karmic formations that arise due to avijja (ignorance), which keep one on the round of birth and death (samsara), and which cease to arise when avijja is dispelled, resulting in liberation from the round and the realization of the deathless.

Traditional Theravada teaching (as I understand it) asserts that at stream entry, one eliminates certain kamma. When the kamma is eliminated, one will only return for seven more lifetimes prior to attaining full liberation. In other words, a big chunk of kamma/sankhara is dropped. So if sankhara is roughly synonymous with kamma in the context of co-dependent origination, than Goenka's theory is pretty sound - in a traditional context, that is. His use of the word "sankhara" is what causes the confusion in this case, due to its many meanings.

This is but one of MANY ways sankhara is used in Buddhist teaching. It's easy to see how so many people - particularly Westerners - get confused about all of this.

It was in MN-117 Maha-cattarisaka sutta where Buddha said "the fruit of stream entry has absolutely no taints and the fruition of stream entry has absolutely no taints, but even after stream entry the sotapanna still has taints..." ~Mark

I have yet to find where sankhara is translated as "taint." Oy. This 'sankhara' word is turning out to be an exegetical nightmare.

Great group, great discussions and great thread! My first post...Goenka will more than likely frame everything within the 4 Noble Truths. So like was mentioned, context is the key to understanding sankhara or any other key word in the pali. There are different perspectives we can take on sankhara and it's erradication/cesssation/extinction/etc. We can say that (looking at dependent origination) the ignorant sankaras are what need to be eradicated. But then you get sutras where Buddha was more emphatic and you get the impression that they all have to actually cease. It seems there were 2 languages that Buddha spoke in, a dhamma language and a people language. You can often discern this by who he is talking to i.e. monks and lay followers or non-followers. This distinction later became codified into the 2-truths doctrine i.e. there is a relative truth and ultimate truth. So when Buddha is talking in dhamma language he is talking about deep insight. From this perspective, sankharas have to cease or self-liberate. To then switch gears and ask... well does a stream-enterer or arahant have sankharas etc. seems to me to want to talk about persons i.e. talk within a relative people based language. Make sense?

e

PS I have been studying/practicing the dharma for about 12 years. Got my feet wet in Korean Zen. Spent most of my time in Theravada with Western and Thai monks. A brief stint with Tibetan Kagyu. Although I know my way around the pali a bit I am no scholar and have more than not felt that more time practicing and less talking is definitely the way to go. So I guess I should fit in well here!!

Welcome to the forum, E.

" Although I know my way around the pali a bit I am no scholar and have more than not felt that more time practicing and less talking is definitely the way to go. "

You sound like one of us already...haha welcome to the forum....

"
That's how I keep myself from being intimidated by trying to attain stream entry. I keep in mind that the fruit and fruition are the part of the equation without sankharas. As far as I can tell it's a given that I'll have sankharas before stream entry, and it's also assured that I still have them afterward.
"

That's a great way of seeing it Mark. Thanks for mentioning that sutta. This will come in handy in trying to convince my dhamma friends that you don't have to exhaust all their sankharas to get SE. Nice!!! And really, I think I'm seeing that it's this word sankhara with it's many different takes and meanings that may be the cause of so much confusion.

At 4th path, what's different? That habit of lingering on, clinging and sticking to and identifying with thoughts, sensations, mind states and the formation of self has been fixed. No more "I' that is "identifying" with all that phenomena, now that that "I" is seen as made up of the same phenomena thus what sticks to what? Habitual tendencies(i.e thought patterns, judgements, emotions) still seem to arise due to conditions, but it is all seen as it arises and can be let go of with ease as there is no clinging to it, no identification with it. Thus no extra stuff is formed, no multiplication of unhealthy thoughts, intentions, mind states, crappy sensations, etc. Perhaps it's the clinging that makes those initial sankharas, which seem more like the initial spark of habitual tendencies, keep forming and growing in power. And now that the clinging or identification with seems to have gone, then the initial formation of mind and matter arises and passes away without getting multiplied and mutated into bigger nastier deep rooted sankharas. Thoughts?

Here is Bikkhu Bodhi's take on "sankhara".

www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/bps-essay_43.html

Interesting. According to Bodhi (at the very end of the article), attaining the deathless (let's say arahantship) uproots the defilements which give rise to those sankharas which are "kammically active" or "kammically potent," in the sense that they lead to future rebirth in samsara. The sankharas that remain are those which are either kammically inoperative, or simply the results of previous kamma.

A rather complicated way of saying that there is suffering, a causes, a cure, and a prescription.

"Interesting. According to Bodhi (at the very end of the article), attaining the deathless (let's say arahantship) uproots the defilements which give rise to those sankharas which are "kammically active" or "kammically potent," in the sense that they lead to future rebirth in samsara. The sankharas that remain are those which are either kammically inoperative, or simply the results of previous kamma.

A rather complicated way of saying that there is suffering, a causes, a cure, and a prescription."

But it does remind me a bit of Kenneth's analogy--a train that has run out of coal but keeps on going down the tracks for the remainder of the journey by the force of its previous momentum.

"But it does remind me a bit of Kenneth's analogy--a train that has run out of coal but keeps on going down the tracks for the remainder of the journey by the force of its previous momentum." ~jgroove

Yes, that's the idea. Ramana Maharshi likens it to an electric fan that is unplugged while operating. The fan blades continue to spin even though the power has been cut off.

Or it can be described like the end of an ice age. The clouds break, revealing the sun, which has the power to melt the snow and ice. But it takes a while for the ice and snow to melt.

Here is Maha Boowa's description of the khandas still operating after arahatship to explain why he cried as an arahat in one of his speeches. This seems related to the sankhara-khandas idea. Taken from here:

www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books/Maha_Bo...Arahantship.htm#PART 2

"The khandhas are what become excited; for instance, when tears are shed. Tears may be shed for a number of reasons. Sadness induces tears, as does joy. Smoke brings tears, and so do onions and garlic. Why all the fuss then about tears? After all, tears are only water'”the water element. Just like the physical elements of earth, fire and wind, water is entirely an aspect of conventional reality. Profoundly moved by the pure nature of Dhamma that suddenly appears, these physical elements are agitated. The pure nature itself, however, is wholly imperturbable. It is the nature of the khandhas to be always reactive. They are agitated by good things and bad things, by pleasure and pain, sorrow and joy. They are forever excitable in one way or another. But at this moment, it is the sudden appearance of Dhamma's pure nature that stirs them.

Continued from above....

"The khandhas are not the Arahant; the Arahant is not the khandhas. Absolutely and without exception, the khandhas are conventional realities. By contrast, that pure nature is completely free of all vestiges of conventional reality'”one hundred percent. So the two do not, cannot mix. They are mutually exclusive. They merely acknowledge each other, according to their respective status. The khandhas, having the status of conventional reality, act so accordingly. Pure nature, appearing suddenly of its own accord, has the status of Absolute Freedom. Thus, since time immemorial, the khandhas of all people from all ages have always been fully consistent with their status as conventional realties.
Having attained enlightenment, the Buddha and the Arahants did not then destroy their khandhas and so prevent them from functioning. For example, laughter. Laughter is a natural function of the khandhas; as is shedding tears. Both are merely functions that the khandhas perform according to their particular status. As long as body and mind maintain a basis of reasonably good health, they can perform any function they choose. For instance, we can take earth and shape it into buildings. Bricks, cement, stones, sand, steel'”if they don't come from the earth, where else do they come from? As long as we have this kind of material basis, we can build anything we choose." Maha Boowa

"We learn to see the true nature of the sankharas, of our own five aggregates: as unstable, conditioned processes rolling on with no one in charge. Thereby we switch off the engine driven by ignorance and craving, and the process of kammic construction, the production of active sankharas, is effectively deconstructed. " Bhikku Bodhi

I like this, when I read through this I think it is important to understand the word craving (could be another thread). Its not so much that we stop wanting things, but rather that the delusion of ultimate satisfaction is permanently smashed... just a thought

Edit: Thanks so much Nick for the Maha Boowa reference... he has to be my new favorite monk. To own to Arahatship and to so skillfully explain why an arahat can cry... the man had balls... I still haven't read the first essay of his, its so dense... but i'll get to it soon enough...

I'm currently researching "sankharas" and here is another interesting explanation of the word by Ajaan Lee Dhammadharo

"Sankharas on the level of the Dhamma" refers to the properties (dhatu), aggregates (khandha), and sense media (ayatana) that lie within us and that result from unawareness and the sankharas concocted by the mind giving rise to dhamma-sankharas on the outer level.

a. Dhatu: The properties that are fashioned into sankhara of the level of the Dhamma are six '”
(1) The solid or dense components of the body, such as bones, muscle, and skin, are called the earth property.
(2) The liquid aspect, such as the blood, permeating throughout all parts of the body, is called the water property.

(3) The forces, such as the in-and-out breath, that flow through the body are called the wind property.

(4) The aspect that gives warmth to all the parts of the body is called the fire property.

(5) The empty spaces in the body, where the other properties can move, enter, and leave, the passages that permit air to enter and leave, and allow us to move '” such as the ear canal, the nasal passages, and mouth, all the way to the pores '” are called the space property.

(6) These various aspects of the body, if there's no consciousness overseeing them, are like a dead flashlight battery that can no longer produce the power to give rise to brightness or movement. As long as consciousness is in charge, it can cause the various qualities and parts of the body to be of use to living beings. Good and evil, merit and demerit can arise only if consciousness is giving the orders. Thus, good and evil come ultimately from awareness itself. This is called the property of consciousness.

All six of these properties are one class of sankharas on the level of the Dhamma.

Continued from above...

b. Khandha: The various categories of things that we experience are called the five aggregates '”

(1) Form: All visible sense data, both within us and without, are called the aggregate of form.
(2) Feeling: the feelings of pleasure, pain, and neither pleasure nor pain that result when consciousness and sense data come into contact with one another are called the aggregate of feeling.

(3) Perception: The act of labeling and identifying people and things, both within and without, is called the aggregate of perception.

(4) Formations: The thoughts and mental constructs that arise from the mind '” good, bad, right, wrong, in line with the common nature of all thinking '” are called the aggregate of formations.

(5) Consciousness: Distinct awareness in terms of conventional suppositions '” for example, when the eye sees a visual object, the ear hears a sound, a smell comes to the nose, a taste comes to the tongue, a tactile sensation comes to the body, or an idea arises in the intellect '” being clearly aware through any of the senses that, "This is good, that's bad, this is subtle, that's fine": To be able to know in this way is called the aggregate of consciousness.

All five of these aggregates come down to body and mind. They are sankharas on the level of the Dhamma that arise from unawareness.

c. Ayatana: This term literally means the "base" or "medium" of all good and evil. Altogether there are six sense media: the senses of vision, hearing, smell, taste, feeling, and ideation.

All of these things are sankharas on the level of the Dhamma. They arise as a result of unawareness, i.e., knowledge that doesn't penetrate into the truth.

www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/lee/handbook.html

Thanks for the welcome guys!

OK I have been told that only an arahant understands and can explain Dependent Origination. (aside: Do you think this is why the Bodhisatva vow is so in vogue? i.e. it seems much easier to proclaim ones infinite care then understanding?) Is there a Dr. on this boat? If not'¦.here is my current working terse understanding for my own practice.

Ignorant intentions bifurcate awareness into mind and body with its sense bases and contacts conditioning feelings into desire solidifying (clinging/becoming) a me (birth) that peters out and dies '¦over and over and over....all day... everyday. This ignorantly conditioned momentary process can stop!! But first it must be re-cognized.

So in this sutra Buddha says the sankharas (along with all the conditioning) must cease. He claims when they do suffering ends. (Seems like a high bar he has set.) So which sankharas cease? Would an arahant never experience suffering again let alone "possess" sankharas? Should we really care, that is, will that knowledge help us in any way to re-cognize Dependent Origination? (PS for those that don't like the cessation word'¦hey don't kill the messenger!

www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.002.than.html

Here's my take on it without knowing much about all the theory in pali, in my own words as I try and explain it to myself.

Pre-4th path, all the way up to late 3rd path had the formation of the sense of self still being read as a separate "thing" when compared to the rest of phenomena. By late 3rd path the energetic circuit within the body, was almost virtually completed. But the illusory sense of self was still being given more importance than the rest of the mental and physical phenomena. This was the primary ignorance that seemed to be the cause of much of the mental suffering. The "I" was still being seen as all important and having a higher status to all the rest of phenomena. When this was happening, there was a clinging to and identifying with the transient phenomena by the mind mistaking it to be part of that formation of "I". Compositions (sankharas?) of sensations and thoughts would arise (as mind states, mental volitions, emotions etc), be evaluated as negative, positive or neutral and then the sticking/clinging process would begin, and the "I" was identified with those formations of mind and matter causing the mind to contract and cause tension and suffering within.

Continued from above.

The illusion was that the mind was identifying sensations and other phenomena as part of the formation of "I".

Through practicing Vipassana via the noting method and inquiring into why the formation of self was being propped up and worshiped as the king of the hill, the "I", or rather the sensations and other phenomena that the "I' is composed of, were seen as just plain old impermanent, not-self phenomena. Then there was a "letting go" of that perception that the "I" was of higher status than the rest of phenomena. Once seen as of equal status to all the rest of phenomena, perception shifted to seeing it ALL as equal permanently. This was not a fruition that caused this final perception shift, but an actual analyzing, evaluating and "seeing" of it all in real time. I think the special path moments that brought about 1st, 2nd and 3rd path were more related to the phyiso-energetic process that was set off. 4th path is brought on by a different type of perception shift.

The "I", on its high illusory throne, was what was causing the "clinging" to transient phenomena. When the "I" was seen continuously as the same transient phenomena, ignorance was dispelled and all phenomena was seen as of the same transient nature. No more clinging to mind and matter. What is clinging to what now? Now phenomena (including the sense of self) has no where to land and stick to. Now, as Chris put it, the non-sacred nature of all phenomena became crystal clear. Thus bringing about the end of ignorance and so no more incessant multiplication of unhelpful, negative thought patterns and mind states. No more grasping at the phenomena that arises and no more multiplying and keeping them flowing. Is it that flow that the Buddha considered what was causing rebirth? I am not really sutta-savvy.

Continued from above...

So what is different now, is that mental volitions still arise as they seem to just be past conditioning; running on the steam that's left; arising to just pass away. However, the strength of the habitual tendency could , for example, make one get pissed off or annoyed for a second or two, showing a cross face or letting out a harsh word, as this was the habitual reaction cultivated in the past. The difference now, is that there is no clinging to that formation as it arises. That habitual tendency (sankhara?) has no where to stick, as there is no identifying with it now with the illusory self as the illusory self is now also seen permanently as just more transient phenomena. The habitual tendency arises and passes away depending on how much past conditioning there was. They can be seen and let go of very, very quickly as the awareness does not fill pulled to cling to and identify with it no more.

Habitual tendencies of my own which were not very strong before, arise as thoughts or mind states, and sensations, or rather embryonic mental and physical formations (sankharas?), but pass away as still embryonic mental and physical formations (sankharas?). They aren't given a chance to hatch, grow and multiply, if I choose not to let that happen. It is effortless to let go of that phenomena and just watch it arise and pass away if I am inclined to just let it be. But I will say there seems to be the option to "run with it", so to speak.

This is my take on 4th path so far. With further reflection of my ongoing experience, this opinion could change.

I am enjoying this thread a lot. Nick and I have talked about this before... I think it is obvious that there is some truth to many of the old dogmatic teachings, but basically they are extreme descriptions of what actually happens. For instance the anagami does not I believe eradicate craving and aversion completely, but there is a radical awareness of these forces and change in perspective to these phenomenon...

"I am enjoying this thread a lot. Nick and I have talked about this before... I think it is obvious that there is some truth to many of the old dogmatic teachings, but basically they are extreme descriptions of what actually happens. For instance the anagami does not I believe eradicate craving and aversion completely, but there is a radical awareness of these forces and change in perspective to these phenomenon..."

Exactly!!! At 3rd path, I was fully aware of the process of clinging to phenomena. And the mind, particularly after that "violent" fruition I had, felt very aloof towards and above this clinging process. So in a sense there WAS a radical reduction in the unnecesary generation of suffering through craving and aversion. But they still arose as seperate phenomena but with much less clinging to them than pre-3rd path.

However, at 3rd path, there still was a sort of clinging to the subtle formation of self. That was the last hurdle;the anagami dilema to solve. The centre point of self still held it's centrepoint status. Then, when it was seen as it truly is, it lost it's centrepoint hold and illusory higher status.

I can see where they got the tradtional ideas from though.

I am enjoying this thread too.

Nick, Clayton, I wonder what you guys would share what the effects of those attainments are on things like fear and anxiety. I think they fall under the definition of sankharas as well.

Thanks!
Eran.

Neurobiology has to play into the impossibility of total "eradication" of certain things. For example, you're not going to get rid of the amygdala--the lower-brain fear/threat warning center. It's what happens after the fear impulse comes into awareness that is important. In an e-mail exchange, one KFD practitioner was telling me about sitting outside in bear country. A bear walked toward him and got very close. Obviously there would be a fear/surprise impulse initially, but then according to him there was no fear after that--he just kept sitting and didn't spin any stories about the bear being a source of danger or a reason for being afraid. The bear left him alone, fortunately!

Hey Eran. I think fear and anxiety are just like anything else... as one works through the paths they become less and less identified as mine in an ultimate sense. They will still arise, but they will have no where to stick... I imagine generalized anxiety (i.e. walking around for most of your day in baseless anxiety) is very rare with people working in the higher paths... actually now that I think about it wait... Kenneth disclosed in his Buddhist Geeks interview that he was depressed and anxious for several years as an anagami... Let me rephrase... I would be very surprised if someone at 4th path had generalized anxiety... of course as Joel points out they will have normal healthy fear responses... thats just part of being human...