The Sankhara thread

Yes. It's good to be cautious when we make statements about what path attainments do, even if we are referring to "just me" when we say whatever we say. There's no value in repeating the sins of the past, especially because we here are sometimes accused of ignoring the past, or not giving it its proper due.

"" In recent times, the Thai Forest tradition is a great example of how the established tradition wasn't doing it's job. Serious meditators retreated to the forest and discovered what the teachings REALLY mean."

" Look to those who are on the fringe, and who've put in the thousands of hours of practice needed to really master this stuff, and see if their descriptions match the academic translations of the suttas. They probably won't. Ajahn Maha Boowa is an excellent example of this, as is Ajaan Lee and Ajaan Fuang, all Thai Forest ("Forest" being a key word, here) monks.""

Hello jackson!

Sorry if i interrupt in your "brainstorming"!

Would you please be so kind to elaborate these two statements/observations!? Seems you know a lot about this!

Thanks!

"What changes with path attainment seems to me to be related primarily, if not entirely, to perceptual processes. Not psychology."

that statement implies that psychology is separate from "perceptual processes." could that really be true? doesn't seem right to me but then my degree isn't in psychology or conseling, it was in journalism -- which is notorious for getting everything wrong.
Also, do we REALLY need to be cautious about reporting our own personal experience? I don't wanna!
I really think you all are capable of realizing that everyone's experience is going to be different (and ever changing) Aren't you? what am I missing?

"that statement implies that psychology is separate from "perceptual processes." could that really be true? doesn't seem right to me but then my degree isn't in psychology or conseling, it was in journalism -- which is notorious for getting everything wrong."

I see a distinct difference, Mike. I've talked about this quite a bit on various threads here, but the shorthand version is that attaining paths doesn't change your memories and your personality. It definitely changes the way you experience objects, however. How you experience objects is why I call "perceptual" or maybe "phenomenological," and not what I would call "psychology." I'm sure folks will disagree with me on this but it's always been my shorthand way of describing a distinction that is clear in my experience.

This is, I believe, what Daniel Ingram is talking about in MCTB when he says things like "it's not about your "stuff." "Stuff" in that sense being psychology in large part. Your relationship to your parents. Your personality traits, and so on.

"
"that statement implies that psychology is separate from "perceptual processes." could that really be true? doesn't seem right to me but then my degree isn't in psychology or conseling, it was in journalism -- which is notorious for getting everything wrong."

I see a distinct difference, Mike. I've talked about this quite a bit on various threads here, but the shorthand version is that attaining paths doesn't change your memories and your personality. It definitely changes the way you experience objects, however. How you experience objects is why I call "perceptual" or maybe "phenomenological," and not what I would call "psychology." I'm sure folks will disagree with me on this but it's always been my shorthand way of describing a distinction that is clear in my experience.

This is, I believe, what Daniel Ingram is talking about in MCTB when he says things like "it's not about your "stuff." "Stuff" in that sense being psychology in large part. Your relationship to your parents. Your personality traits, and so on.

"

Thanks, man.
I'll have to put all that into the category of "more will be revealed" because I'm not sure if I really agree with you or Daniel right now but my gut tells me it's not something I need to worry about -- right now, today.

"... do we REALLY need to be cautious about reporting our own personal experience?"

Mike, I said,

"It's good to be cautious when we make statements about what path attainments do, even if we are referring to "just me" when we say whatever we say. There's no value in repeating the sins of the past, especially because we here are sometimes accused of ignoring the past, or not giving it its proper due."

So, I'm saying we need to be cautious making general claims about path attainments. I'm not saying you need to edit your reporting of your personal experience.

"... I'm not sure if I really agree with you or Daniel right now..."

That would be a very good way to approach anything on the path

"
"... do we REALLY need to be cautious about reporting our own personal experience?"

Mike, I said,

"It's good to be cautious when we make statements about what path attainments do, even if we are referring to "just me" when we say whatever we say. There's no value in repeating the sins of the past, especially because we here are sometimes accused of ignoring the past, or not giving it its proper due."

So, I'm saying we need to be cautious making general claims about path attainments. I'm not saying you need to edit your reporting of your personal experience.

"

Good point, thanks.
Cleared that right up.

I just have to say that i am learning a hell of a lot about "Nick", his "stuff" and other stuff that is really helpful from this thread. Awesome! Thanks guys! Keep it coming! And Jackson, please bombard this thread with all your related ideas. That's what i started it for. This discussion is getting better and better!

Nick

I have to concur 100% with Chris on this point. I went through brief periods where I thought my attainments were going to solve problems they weren't designed for... insight will give you a clearer perspective on certain things I guess...

"Would you please be so kind to elaborate these two statements/observations!? Seems you know a lot about this!" ~Max

Hi Max,

Good questions. First, check out this article by Thanissaro Bhikkhu'¦

"The Customs of the Noble Ones" - www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/customs.html

It would seem that the arising of the Thai Forest (kammatthana) tradition was due in part to the ways in which the Buddhadharma was being taught in Thailand and Burma, which was heavily modernized, academic, urban, and monastic. Some dedicated practitioners (like Ajaan Mun) refused to accept the dogma of the religious elites and set out to discover the truth of the dhamma for themselves.

If you look at stories from the Indian and Tibetan Vajrayana tradition, the same general pattern is true. Naropa was a high caste monk and scholar, whose academic understanding of the dharma was impeccable. But he was confronted with the fact that he didn't know the true meaning in his own experience, and set out to find Tilopa, who was a wilderness-dwelling siddha of the lowest caste. It was through his training with Tilopa that he was able to discover true realization.

The politics of religious order always sway the teachings toward matters of conduct, or "exoteric" religion. But innovation always comes from the fringe. Those nomadic practitioners who are willing to leave the safety and security of the established community in order to really put the teachings into practice are the ones who are able to really tell it like it is. Those are the people we should be paying attention to.

In our modern or contemporary context, I think that teachers like Kenneth are most definitely on the fringe - hence the reason I hang out here

"
In our modern or contemporary context, I think that teachers like Kenneth are most definitely on the fringe - hence the reason I hang out here "

Great explanation, Jackson! It seems to be the reason most people hang out here. I know it is why I hang out here. Fringe dwellers indeed!

"I have to concur 100% with Chris on this point. I went through brief periods where I thought my attainments were going to solve problems they weren't designed for... insight will give you a clearer perspective on certain things I guess... "

I am SO not there .... yet?
Maybe its a matter of terms or context or something?
On the most basic level -- my life is better. Way better. Every part of it. There is no doubt about that. None.
Of course, path doesn't "solve problems" but I THINK it made things that I used to think were problems no longer seem like problems at all and I think it has given me a certain boost in positive joyous energy that helps me better deal with real problems and get them solved and out of the way.
Work is a great example of this -- I used to get so worked up over every little thing about my job especially when it got really busy. Now, I'm busy as hell and I just know that it will all turn out okay if I just take it one step at a time and if it does't all work out that I can handle that too.

Wow -- I really feel like my opinion on this is really divergent from the norm on this site right now. is that because I am wrong and I'll realize it someday? or because I'm not understanding some subtlety in what others are saying? or am i just lucky? I don't think i am naive -- I've been doing this Mike Monson thing for a while now and I think I'm a pretty reliable reporter of my own experience. And, I know there will be ups and downs and things will change all the time, and I know that bad things will constantly happen that are beyond my control and they will hurt hurt hurt. (but I'm also up for the possiblility that I'm just going to be a happier person from now on).

Hey Mike, I am not trying intentionally to disagree with you obviously. Attainment does give you an infinitely better platform to work from... I am not sure I am able to express correctly what I am trying to say... Thanks for your post Jackson...

"Wow -- I really feel like my opinion on this is really divergent from the norm on this site right now. is that because I am wrong and I'll realize it someday? or because I'm not understanding some subtlety in what others are saying? or am i just lucky?" ~Mike

You're not alone, Mike. I'm on the fence.

Much of psychotherapy is about re-contextualization. It's about noticing the areas of life that are giving you trouble, bringing those things into awareness, and learning to respond to them differently so the problems are no longer as problematic. This works a lot like insight work does.

What's the difference? Ugh. It can be difficult to put into words. I'd say that insight work has more to do with examine the root causes of suffering (greed, aversion, delusion --- basically, Ignorance), while psychotherapy can lean toward to addressing isolated problems or symptoms. Insight work is about coming to grips with, and re-contextualizing, the inherent unsatisfactoriness of life based on "me" making and "mine" making. Psychotherapy only looks at the things in life that are an issue, and addresses them in a way that seems most appropriate based on research.

The differences to me are subtle, and that's only a few of them. I do feel that the insight paths and personal psychotherapy can be integrated, and that they are complimentary rather than conflicting.

Personal psychology:
My dad was just visiting. For five days. He left Sunday.
Now, while I love my Dad and he is not one of those cliche a s s hole fathers (bla bla bla) at 54 I STILL have a lot of issues with him and when I'm around him a lot I GET PISSED OFF. Constantly. And this is a primal, heavy, epic, deep seated anger. And, this visit was no exception, believe me.
But, there WAS something different this time. This time I was RIGHT THERE for both him and me and everything I was feeling and seeing in relationship with him. Really intimate. I loved it even while I was hating him. And, I ended up seeing just how much I loved him -- and I felt that - a lot.
And now that he is gone i feel refreshed when usually after he leaves I have an emotional hangover and am filled with resentment against him for all his sins and guilt for the way I behaved and the way I felt.
Plus, i feel like he is more real to me now, and thus more understandable.
TMI?

Remember the whole happiness that does not depend on conditions slant of Kenneth's teachings? It's real! In "MY" experience so far, if there is "suffering" and "happiness"; physical or mental stuff that used to be considered "suffering" and "happiness", the big difference I am seeing now is that there is really no "Nick" that is happy or sad or suffering. They are just impermanent mind states etc along with that provisional sense of "Nick", of self. Suffering is just suffering. No "Nick" really to suffer nor to be happy in fact. But there is an ever-present awareness of all that phenomena that is completely non-judgmental about whether one phenomenon is better than another. There's your happiness that does not depend on conditions right there!

Usually preferring something over another thing relies heavily on conditions. Keep being happy! But remember that the happiness you may be depending on is a temporary mind state that depends on conditions. Keep going for that happiness that does NOT depend on conditions!

P.S. My experience was similar to Mike's. I got happier at each path and a lot of the garbage of my mind was let go of and navigating life got easier and easier. But nothing and I mean NOTHING beats the happiness that does not depend on conditions!

P.S.S. And I guess it depends what the changes are after paths as we sometimes don't get to put our newly develped/attained perceptual abilities into action until we find ourselves in situations that "push" buttons. How do i know that if I am punched in the face out of the blue by someone that i wont react in a certain way. I have no idea how I would react. Guess I would have to go through that situation a few times to see what i would have to work on.

Edited to include, I don't think I answered anyone's question:)

Mike,

Your experience with your father is a good example of how insight work can lead to in increased ability to encounter everyday situations with a more spacious, at-ease quality of mind. Whether or not this was the point of the Buddha's teaching from the start, it is certainly a wonderful side effect. What you're describing is a good thing

Jackson

"... insight work can lead to in increased ability to encounter everyday situations with a more spacious, at-ease quality of mind. Whether or not this was the point of the Buddha's teaching from the start, it is certainly a wonderful side effect. ...
"

I might be reading too much into your words, Jackson, but I think you're right in using the term "insight work" instead of path. There are clear benefits to just having a consistent practice, and these benefits can be seen in everyday life and everyday situations.

While I have not attained to any path, I can definitely say that I am finding it easier to deal with the world and that I'm allowing my experience of it to slowly expand and open up. Much of this I can attribute to being more mindful, having different ways of looking at my reactions and other people's motivations, feeling generally more stable and less reactive and more willing to experience emotions for what they are. All of those point right back to my practice. It sounds from the various descriptions I heard here (thank you all for sharing those, btw) that attaining to a path might make this easier in some sense or less sticky but even without that, there are many many fruits to the practice.

Eran.

""MY" experience so far, hehe, if there is suffering, and I mean physical or mental stuff that used to be considered suffering, the BIG difference I am seeing is that there is really no "Nick" that is happy or sad or suffering. They are just impermanent mind states etc along with that provisional sense of "Nick", of self. Suffering is just suffering. No "Nick" really to suffer.
"

thanks
I wasn't sure how to say it but for sure there is now less of an identification with a "mike" (1/4 less than you right now in regards to nik? ) and this is certainly the biggest reason why I am happier. just less friction. and, I think (oh how I LOVE talking about that "mike" thing!) my skills at being happy in heaven Or hell are getting better all the time.

"I might be reading too much into your words, Jackson, but I think you're right in using the term "insight work" instead of path. There are clear benefits to just having a consistent practice, and these benefits can be seen in everyday life and everyday situations." ~Eran

Absolutely.

"Jackson: "Much of psychotherapy is about re-contextualization. It's about noticing the areas of life that are giving you trouble, bringing those things into awareness, and learning to respond to them differently so the problems are no longer as problematic.""

one thing I've been struggling with (and its only a theoretical kind of thing, but I find it coming up again and again) is whether after 4th path, after we attain to (or whatever verb you like) that "happiness that doesn't depend upon conditions", can we still notice the areas in our life that give us trouble and change them?

Since, as Nick says, "Usually preferring something over another thing relies heavily on conditions." If we're condtionlessly happy, do we still feel the need to adjust our conditions when necessary?

I'm pretty sure the answer is that we still can, but if someone could speak a little bit on what the reality of that is like, how you can be conditionlessly happy and still unhappy enough to make changes, I'm hoping I can finally put this worry behind me once and for all.

I can't say I am always aware of that ever present awareness. As I have to live my life and get somewhat embedded in the nitty gritty of it. I have to deal with relationship issues, work issues, family issues, etc. Usually that awareness is aware of itself at specific moments when the mind is calm, or when it's directed to do so. I really don't know if it could become a permanent shift. Time will tell.

But I still wanna deal and work on the issues I may have in life , like some habitual tendencies which don't help me and don't help my loved ones. As a lot of those issues effect other people around me. I guess I can't be hanging out in 3rd gear all the time, and I don't have that ability yet. But it's there whenever the thoughts in my head are telling me I'm suffering. Kenneth's superpower = "Not believing my thoughts". It's a cool superpower to have.

That conditoned stuff keeps arising and some of it could be harmful to yourself and others. That conditioend stuff could be anything. A belief, a bad eating habit, addiciton to something and any other strong habitual tendency. They could be more than mental, being perhaps verbal and physical habits too that occur post-4th path. There are real consequences there. So there are definitely things one has to work on.

But If I find a thought telling me, that it prefers this state of mind over another state of mind or sensation or whatever, I just remind myself of where that happiness that does not depend on conditions is. It is always there, for everyone, pre and post path.

"one thing I've been struggling with (and its only a theoretical kind of thing, but I find it coming up again and again) is whether after 4th path, after we attain to (or whatever verb you like) that "happiness that doesn't depend upon conditions", can we still notice the areas in our life that give us trouble and change them?

Since, as Nick says, "Usually preferring something over another thing relies heavily on conditions." If we're condtionlessly happy, do we still feel the need to adjust our conditions when necessary?

I'm pretty sure the answer is that we still can, but if someone could speak a little bit on what the reality of that is like, how you can be conditionlessly happy and still unhappy enough to make changes, I'm hoping I can finally put this worry behind me once and for all."

just a quick note: "the happiness that doesn't depend on conditions" can be had right now, no matter where one might be in "first gear" practice.
look, disembed, surrender (not necessarily in that order) and -- boom! no suffering for at least that moment.

"after 4th path, after we attain to (or whatever verb you like) that "happiness that doesn't depend upon conditions", can we still notice the areas in our life that give us trouble and change them?"

"If we're condtionlessly happy, do we still feel the need to adjust our conditions when necessary?"

Yes, of course!

Have you ever read Jack Kornfield's book "After the Ecstasy, the Laundry"? I highly recommend it.

~Jackson