The Jhanic Free For All

Hey Everybody,
So Clayton, Nick and I have been chatting over skype once a week for a while now, and lately we have been doing interactive meditation sessions. We are also playing with recording them. Last week we went though all the nanas and jhanas up to high equanimity, but it wasn't in a format that was fit for making public. We thought it would be fun to do it again, going all the way up through the arc to J13 and possibly NS and at each nana and jhana and give detailed descriptions, this time with the intent to make it public.

So what do you guys think? I'm trying to gauge interest and also ask if anybody has any questions about the technical aspects of practice that you might want us to go over. If it works out and helps anyone's practice, we might make it into a regular thing.
Metta,
-o


Edited again for updated link.

EDIT Link to mp3 audio:
www.divshare.com/download/12525091-c26

Beautiful idea. Couldn't hurt. If you are worried about causing scripting, we've all read the descriptions in mtctb anyway. It would be awesome to hear how you guys describe them. I think we have a fairly consistent terminology on the board so it would be a great resource to have a fresh set of descriptions based on that.

I think it is a great idea. And tangentially related, I had floated the idea over email about possibly getting a regular Skype meeting going that is open for all. It sounds like you guys have been doing that more informally so in addition to recording, I wonder if it makes sense for you to open it up and allow others to hop on the call?

"I think it is a great idea. And tangentially related, I had floated the idea over email about possibly getting a regular Skype meeting going that is open for all. It sounds like you guys have been doing that more informally so in addition to recording, I wonder if it makes sense for you to open it up and allow others to hop on the call?"

Yeah, long term I wouldn't mind seeing that... so long as I don't have to be the one to work out skype's scalability bugs.

Great idea Owen. I feel the video of Kenneth and Nikolai going thru 13 jhanas was extremely educational. It is always fascinating to hear how others may see and describe the jhanas as they go through them.

This sounds extraordinary!

I am in favor of the idea. I'd try the group skype session, too, if that ever gets off the ground.

Cool. Glad you guys are liking this. I'd like to try and get a list of 10 or so questions for us to talk about. I personally am interested in talking about the technical aspects like how to move up and down the arc, exploring specific nanas, resolutions... all that kind of stuff. I'm a huge geek.
So, anything you would like to hear us yammer on about, ask away.

Come on guys, we need more questions to help us figure out what people will find helpful.

Please discuss

How to access the fruitions from each path and what the entry / exits are like

How to access ns

What the strata feel like off the cushion vs on it

We have played around with accessing different fruitions, trying to do all 3 at once etc. How the strate feel off the cushion vrs on it is a very interesting question, we should definatly discuss our experience with that, thanks man...

Another good one would be what each layer feels like when you are deeply absorbed vs. merely averting it (how the flavor changes with increased concentration).

"Another good one would be what each layer feels like when you are deeply absorbed vs. merely averting it (how the flavor changes with increased concentration)."

That one might be tricky. I tend to loose the ability to talk after a certain level of absorption. I suppose I could bounce in, go really deep and then come back out and describe. We might need to make a few passes through the arc to be able to do that.

Tricky, yes, but potentially very valuable IMO.

I have to second the idea of having periodic open Skype sessions. Sometimes it's more motivating to see the faces and hear the voices of people doing the same thing as you, relative to reading written posts.

One thing that could be cool to look at: are there other body-based techniques for affecting concentration and investigation? I think a lot of people here are familiar with the eye thing (rolling the eyes up tends to produce a more vipassana-like experience, versus a more shamatha-like meditation when the eyes are relaxed and allowed to gaze somewhere near the horizon).

What similar techniques are out there? Are there breathing techniques? (GASP! It goes against the advice to let the breathing happen naturally, without controlling it. I guess all the people who have accessed jhana through yogic pranayama exercises, such as myself, are the proof that you don't HAVE to do it that way all the time.) What about the effects of posture on meditation, beyond the basic Reclining-Sitting-Standing-Walking scheme of increasing alertness?

This project could result in some cool new discoveries, and if not, it would still be really helpful.

I would like to hear more "real-time" reports from the arupa jhanas. Those seem tricky to me, and I go back and forth between thinking I have them down or not.

I think the current edge of my practice is high equanimity and the first two formless realms (for sure space is prominent and induce different qualities and dynamics).
I would like to know how to manage that territory, usually I just stay with the thing and see what happens, hoping to hit fruition...

Investigating the 3C, deconstructing the jhanas, I really don't get this kind of instructions... need some practical tips at that point.

Thank you.

Bump to top. This is on tonight. Moar questions please.

There's very little info on the last 5 jhanas. Perhaps you could flush those out, compare and contrast your experiences, talk about strategies for approaching them etc.

Could you also discuss the method you are using to access this stuff (witness, noting?)

Hey Everybody,
We had a good talk last night but had some technical issues. It seems there might not be enough internet in Chile. Nick.

Anyhow, we are going to break this into a two parter. Last night we got a good recording of the questions and a trip up to the 8th jhana with subjective descriptions. You guys please let us know if we made any sense while trying to talk in jhana. Also, if it generates any more questions please post them here. A link to the mp3 audio should be up this evening.

Thanks everybody!

Okay guys, it is cooked. Please let us know what you think.

www.divshare.com/download/12521108-8b2

WHOA!

So awesome. Thanks so much for this guys. I followed along with it in bed just now. It really clarified a lot of things.

1. The transition from 3rd to equanimity, and how reobservation can kind of come on at once (I can really identify with when you think you are on your way to 4th but then anxiety comes back up).

2. Fruitons. I was able to follow along and do a couple of the annica and dukkha ones. The no-self was a bit trickier and I think it was talked about less so I didn't really get it going (I don't think). Any suggestions for that one? Would a who am I type focus help here or would it just take you up to 6th? Previously I was either getting them at random or by focusing on change (annica). I hadn't really tried the others.

3.Arupa Jhanas. I liked the way you guys described these. Good stuff.

There were some sensations in all of the strata you went over that I hadn't really noticed before. Quite geeky!

This is an absolutely incredible resource. Having all three of you guys do this brought a lot of depth to the thing.

Thanks again.

Everyone needs to listen to this.

Can't wait for the sequel!!!

Hi guys,

supposedly when I edited the recording, I may have cut out an explanation of the 1st jhana/mindbody nana? Can everyone verify this for me?

Hey all, first off, listening to the first part of this talk last night I realized we accidently edited out the 1st Jhana. This problem will likely be fixed but I just thought I would let everyone know so they are not confused. Hey Jayson, hmm, I really dont know what to tell you. Usually I just incline the mind tto experience that fruition. But honestly I have very limited experience in fruition practice, annica and dukka a clearer to me as well. Usually the noself door is the smoothest, thats about all I can say about that...

Clayton

Yep, I can confirm I am a sucky editor. Hehe! I will edit that part back in a new recording and get Owen to replace it. On it right away. WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT!

Owen, I just went up through and stopped at 4th and tried the fruitions again. I can confirm that asking oneself "who am I" and then focusing on the non-answer as well as resolving beforehand did the trick (I was thinking that would push me into the witness or something, but it didn't. The witness is a different thing to latch onto beyond just that simple question/looking). Also, it was very smooth, perhaps I missed it the first time I tried.

As to the 1st Jhana, it was funny because I was feeling vibrations on the skin, a sense of effort and such and Nick went straight into talking about 2nd, I was confused at first, but I just gave it a second until I saw what you were talking about (sensations moving inward vs. on the surface and all the rest).

I'm excited to use some of these new tricks. The eye thing is fabulous. I understood it but really never used it to it's full potential until now.

I have much more confidence about the power of intention regarding these things now as well.

You guys are awesome. I doubt there are any resources out there about these things of this caliber other than Kenneth's guided tour to the 20 strata which is in the dharma talks section as well as Nick and Kenneth's guided Jhana tour on youtube (in the videos section on the site).

Double Woot!