Kirby's practice journal

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I'm wondering whether there is value in dropping the noting and just being with the spaciousness in these states, or if continuing to try and note - even if it feels like more effort is required to do so - is more beneficial. My main fear is that by dropping the noting I'm just being lazy and I'll end up sitting there for a length of time with phenomena arising and passing without clear awareness of them - just like normal day dreaming.

20101118 - PM - 1hr

Went into tonight's sit with a sense of wanting to repeat the clarity of this morning's, so started out by noting out loud. Realised that I didn't have the energy to maintain that for long, so dropped back into silent noting after a short while. Noticed feelings of '˜wanting' clear, relaxed experiences and '˜frustration' at not encountering them. About 20mins in there was a sense of letting go and phenomena became more clear.

Felt strong pressure around the bridge of the nose again, like a thumb pressing hard against it. This pressure became an upward pushing which tilted my head up slightly. Later in the sit my head turned to the right seemingly of its own accord, then as I watched and continued noting, it snapped back to '˜straight ahead' position. Noted this with a sense of disinterest and objectivity - to my surprise. Also experienced the feeling of being really big again.

Sense of straining to remain aware of thoughts and sensations was present, as it normally is during evening sits. I think this is a result of being mentally exhausted from work. When I realise that I'm straining, I note '˜tired', '˜sleepy', '˜dullness', '˜confused', but with less speed than when highly alert, which generally causes me to judge my performance of the noting technique, feeling like I need to be noting rapidly or I'll end up just wandering. So there is quite a sense of striving and tension and really wanting to do this right and fearing that I'm doing it wrong for most of the time, but occasionally I realise that I've dropped the judging and striving and am just noting gently and clearly.

20101119 - AM - 1hr

Slightly modified my resolution before sit this morning: I resolve to continuously and objectively notice all phenomena that take centre stage from moment to moment, so that I may attain stream entry as soon as possible.

Been feeling like I need to maintain more of an objective/disembedded feeling while noting, so that was in the back of my mind during the sit, and I intentionally noted phenomena as '˜just excitement', '˜just tingling - pleasant', '˜just hearing' to cultivate the feeling of just watching phenomena pass by with not vested interest in it.

Started with noting out loud as I thought that might result in concentration/settling in to the groove quicker (remembering yesterday morning), but it turns out it doesn't make any difference. Returned to silent noting after about 15 mins, and found that I still got into the groove pretty quickly and didn't end up wandering without notice. When drowsy and spacey, I was able to pay attention to that and just gently note '˜sleepy', '˜drowsy', '˜dullness', '˜spacey' and sooner or later something else would pop onto centre stage which I was able to notice with more clarity than if I was fretting about being too spaced out to rapidly notice thoughts and sensations.

It feels like I get to a stage at the end of most 1hr sits where I'm on the verge of letting go to some extent, and sometimes I do get to that point - but then the bell goes. Wondering if I should try a 90min sit and see what happens.
Fear at the thought of sitting for 90 mins as the posture pain can get pretty bad at times...but am I just talking myself out of it?

" When drowsy and spacey, I was able to pay attention to that and just gently note '˜sleepy', '˜drowsy', '˜dullness', '˜spacey' and sooner or later something else would pop onto centre stage which I was able to notice with more clarity than if I was fretting about being too spaced out to rapidly notice thoughts and sensations."

I have similar experiences. I just note the spaciness and straighten my spine and when another object would appear the noting of it would snap me out of it.

"I have similar experiences. I just note the spaciness and straighten my spine and when another object would appear the noting of it would snap me out of it."

Thanks for that Richard
I feel more sure in my handling of this situation now. Of course the answer is always 'just note it!', but it's easy to develop alternative expectations and desires and forget this simple task

20101119 - PM - 1hr

Solid 1hr sit, internal noting only and closed eyes. General feeling of mild unsatisfactoriness throughout, but also feeling like resolution to let go more often was successful as there were no occurrences of strong frustration or tension. '˜Even' is the word that comes to mind regarding my current state.

Really busy day at work but noted phenomena when I thought of it. It seems that if I really try hard to note throughout the day I find myself stressing about it and judging my inability to do so as clearly as I want to (as clearly as when sitting would be nice ), but if I don't put any pressure on myself to note, it kind of happens naturally from time to time, and is occurring more often as I continue to sit really regularly and practice this '˜noting without a primary object' technique.

Been thinking about investigating 2nd gear more. Tried a few times while walking around and felt like I '˜got it', but I haven't dedicated a sit to 2nd gear practice and I can't really see yet how to maintain it during any kind of activity. As soon as phenomena are noticed I find myself noting and slipping back to 1st. Anyway, something to experiment with.

Kirby,

I'm interested to see how physical sensations are playing out for you as you sit. I see you mentioned unpleasant sensations in your last post. I'm wondering if you would be able to sort of map them out in the order they were felt in a way that gives an idea of how they are concentrated.

Have a look at Nadav's notes to see what I mean (maybe skip ahead a couple of pages).

kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/thread/40...dav's+practice+notes

Keep up the good work.

Hi mumuwu!

Thanks for the direction to Nadav's thread. I'm really inspired to journal in much more detail now.
I had been starting to get more general as I felt like I was going to just be repeating the same stuff over and over, but I see that every detail can be important, so I'll see how much I can remember after tomorrow morning's sit

I saw an old comment from you on Nadav's thread about noting one sensation per second and moving on almost intentionally to something new every 'note', versus repeatedly noting a sensation if it remains the centre of attention for a while. When I stopped using a primary object (abdomen), I pretty much rebelled and began noting a different sensation every 'note'. This really opened my awareness up to whatever arose, but felt very busy and unsatisfactory.
I've now started doing the 'note once per second, and note whatever is currently the centre of attention' and find that this seems more comfortable.

Thanks again

Yeah, you kind of get a feel for what you need to do sometimes vs other times. I find it good to break things up a bit at certain points and to focus on a central sensation at others. When I was hitting three characteristics on a regular basis as my cutting edge, focusing on a single itch and trying to penetrate it was a good technique for me. Prior to that, when embeddedness was high, and I wasn't seeing that the experience is made up of a finite number of discrete sensations, breaking up the experience via noting a bunch of different things was a good technique.

It depends on where you're at I guess. I still find going through each foundation and objectifying my experience as a totality to be a fun and engaging practice. I also enjoy following the breath at one spot, but I find it can cause me to go into Jhana or space out more than the first practice I mentioned. Both are good, whatever works for you works.

kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/page/Basi...itation+Instructions (staying with one object)
kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/page/How+to+Get+Enlightened (moving through the 4 foundations)

One thing though, you can move the attention around and objectify things, but at some point you'll want to note exactly what's coming up and allow the attention to move around on it's own (or rather allow objects to present themselves to you). So you'll be noting an itch in the head, and then tension in the back seems to become more clear so you start noting tension, then the feel of your hands on your desk becomes the most prevalent thing, and you do that noting at a steady rate. Some times one object will stick around for a long time as the most prevalent thing and you continue to note that until it breaks up or is replaced.

So, there's really no single best way. Like I said, the moving attention around, objectifying all of the sensations you can find, then noting them as pleasant/unpleasant/neutral, then switching to noticing the mind state for a while, then objectifying thoughts for a while, can give you a really good platform to do the noting what is presenting type meditation.

It's all good.

"So, there's really no single best way. Like I said, the moving attention around, objectifying all of the sensations you can find, then noting them as pleasant/unpleasant/neutral, then switching to noticing the mind state for a while, then objectifying thoughts for a while, can give you a really good platform to do the noting what is presenting type meditation.

It's all good.
"

Awesome. This is kind of the idea that I've been working with - that I should trust my instincts and apply the technique that seems appropriate at the time - even if that changes multiple times during a sit.
In response to questions about how I should be practicing, I was advised to 'Drive it like you own it' by Vince.
This stuck with me and gave a sense of empowerment and confidence that if I feel like a technique is working well, it probably is and I should stop second guessing.

Thanks for taking the time to impart your wisdom, mumuwu!

It's this kind of stuff that gets me through the periods of doubt and confusion.

Thank you!

20101120 - AM - 1hr

Ridiculously tired this morning. Woke up and started noting within a couple of seconds. Mainly thoughts and mental states rather than sensations - '˜remembering thought, visual thought, feeling sleepy, spacing out, rising, falling, analysing thought, feeling sleepy,.......spacing out........'.

Relaxed each part of the body then began noting out loud. '˜Sitting, touching, pressure - neutral, pressure - neutral, travelling thought, travelling thought, remembering thought, feeling guilty, judging, hearing, visual thought, hearing, visual thought, hearing, hearing, hearing, pressure - unpleasant, dryness (mouth) - unpleasant, wanting, gathering, swallowing, breathing in, pressure - unpleasant, travelling thought, remembering thought'.
Experienced great difficulty keeping the noting going and not spacing out. Frequently noted '˜feeling tired, spacing out, spacing out, wanting, wanting, frustration, feeling sleepy, seeing, remembering thought, travelling thought, travelling thought, planning thought, spacing out, feeling sleepy, wanting..'.
Verbal noting felt like a huge effort considering the tiny amount of energy I had, so I switched to mental noting with eyes open. This resulted in more relaxed states and awareness of finer sensations - '˜pressure (head/forehead), pressure, pressure - pleasant, tingling - pleasant, tingling - pleasant, pressure - neutral, imagining thought, imagining thought, feeling relaxed, seeing, feeling sleepy, relaxed - pleasant, pressure - neutral, pressure - neutral, tinging (body rush) - pleasant, tingling - pleasant, wanting..'.

cont...

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Many occurrences of itching throughout the sit. 90% of the time it was quite mild and each sensation lasted for only one or two notes. At one point I noted itching in one location, then a second at the same time, then continued noting '˜itching - neutral, itching - neutral' as these two points remained present, then a third, fourth and fifth point began itching - all 5 felt simultaneously. This lasted for another 3-4 notes before dissipating and awareness moving to thoughts.
There was one occurrence of '˜itching - pleasant' which was interesting, as I don't recall experiencing a pleasant feeling tone associated with an itch before.

Began to feel (and note) tension and frustration due to the effort required to continue noting and not space out, and estimated that I was probably about 30mins into the hour. Continued noting with grim determination, then the bell went. I sat there stunned for about 20 seconds at the fact that 1hr was up already, and rummaged around for a describing word for the situation but couldn't find one (shock? disbelief? interest?) so noted '˜confused'.

20101119 - Afternoon - 1hr

Decided to do 3 x 1hr sits today (it's Saturday in Australia). Was still really tired after getting bugger-all sleep last night, so I listened to my 30min '˜cat nap' hemi-sync thing and felt more refreshed. Lawnmower man was here making noise, but I thought I'd sit anyway. I haven't felt that silence is much of a priority of late - noises just become '˜more fuel for the rocket ship' as Nikolai would say

Physical sensations dominated this sit. Mainly pressure around the temples, between the eyebrows or on the crown of the head, or tingling on the temples, forehead or hands. Solid feeling of pressure/heaviness in between the eyebrows for a minute or two. A few full body rushes, which I noticed turning into prickling this time before dissipating - '˜tingling - pleasant, tingling - pleasant, prickling - neutral, wanting, judging'. One huge body rush which lasted for about 10 seconds and made me physically shudder. Noted '˜tingling - pleasant, tingling - pleasant, tingling - pleasant, tingling, wanting, interest' as remnants of tingling remained in the elbows for a few seconds before disappearing.
Around the middle of the sit I suddenly had a tingling, bubbling feeling on the side of my upper leg, from the buttock to a point near the knee. Noted '˜tingling, tingling, interest, tingling'. This felt different to the usual tingling sensations - finer, like millions of gentle bubbles, and lasted only about 5 seconds.

General feeling of relaxation, clarity and pleasantness. Found myself contemplating briefly whether there was even such a thing as the kind of mental clarity that I've fantasised about since discovering meditation, or if constant and moving awareness of what is going on in my experience from moment to moment is as '˜clear' as it gets, even though this seems muddy and chaotic at times.

cont...

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Near the end of the sit the noting seemed to become spacier, and objects noted became less clear - like they were becoming boring and my '˜mind' just couldn't be bothered paying attention anymore. Hint of frustration at not feeling clarity and momentum in the noting, but made the effort to just note '˜spacing out, sleepy, spacey, zoning out, sleepy'. Phenomena were still noted, just not as clearly or rapidly as before.

...

Noting pace slowed down a bit about half way through, but noting still felt fairly clear. Mainly noticing physical sensations (tingling/pressure around the face and head) with travelling (same location) and remembering/visual thought (scenes from Pure Pwnage that I just watched) popping up occasionally, but nowhere near as often as they usually do. Started experiencing periods of spacing out, but I noted as '˜spacing out, spacing out' until something else took centre stage. While noting the spacing out I noticed that there was much more of a sense of clarity and spaciousness than I usually get during these periods, as I wasn't looking for something else to note, just noting the spacing. I normally try to do this but there's still an element of looking for something else.

After about 40 mins, the spacing out became more frequent and less clear. Attempted to keep the regular, rhythmic noting going, and noticed that it was hard to pinpoint many sensations/thoughts directly. I intentionally looked for physical sensations and got a feeling like there was something there (maybe a tingling or warmth at the hands touching, for example) but it slipped past without being fully experienced like it usually would be. Sense of awareness being like a sieve and sensations passing through it, barely touching. This lasted for a few minutes, then I just experienced spacing out and noted posture pain until the bell went - '˜spacing out, spacing out, aching - unpleasant, aching - unpleasant, burning - unpleasant, burning - unpleasant, tingling - neutral, pressure - neutral, pressure - neutral, remembering thought, remembering thought, spacing out, spacing out, tiredness, tiredness, aching - unpleasant..'.

cont...

20101119 - PM - 1hr

Not much daily activity noting going on today, as I've been playing games and being overly tired. Noting on average 3-6 things an hour - just random things that remind me to note, but then I don't have to energy to continue.

Sat down and verbally stated my resolution: '˜I resolve to remain constantly and objectively aware of the phenomena that take centre stage, so that I may gain stream entry as soon as possible'. Relaxed each part of the body then began noting.

Found myself noting in a steady, rhythmic fashion right from the start, so I decided to maintain this for the entire hour. I usually note sporadically, keeping a kind of steady flow but cramming in multiple notes if sensations are noticed close together, and leaving longer pauses when I space out. This time I just kept noting at a steady pace...about once per second, maybe a bit quicker, falling back on '˜hearing, hearing' (PCs whirring away next to me), or '˜spacing out, spacing out' when nothing else presented itself.

For the first 20mins of the sit I noted a lot of calmness, joy, relaxation, clarity and tingling/pressure sensations, with thoughts of '˜travelling' to a specific location repeating occasionally -'˜pressure - neutral, pressure - neutral, tingling - neutral, tingling - neutral, relaxed - pleasant, relaxed - pleasant, joy, happiness, tingling - pleasant, tingling - pleasant, travelling thought, travelling thought, visual thought, feeling warmth, tingling - neutral, tingling - neutral, relaxtation - pleasant, joy'.
Felt pressure in the area at the top of the nose and between the eye brows again, like a thumb pushing into it. Lasted for about 2 minutes.

cont...

...

Noting in a regular, rhythmic fashion felt much more effective than my previous (only slightly different) technique. I felt like I stayed on the ball for longer, and the regular pattern injected more energy into the practice. I may have also just been filled with energy and motivation due to trying something new (which is usually the case), so I'll continue to note in this fashion and see what happens.

20101121 - AM - 1hr

Really tired this morning again. Had a hard time getting up and could maintain very little noting.
Sat down and resolved: I resolve to remain constantly mindful, consistently and objectively noticing the phenomena that take centre stage so that I may attain stream entry as soon as possible. Relaxed each part of the body and started noting.

Attempted to note quickly and regularly, but found that I was zoning out frequently. Just noting for 30-60 seconds, then finding that I'd completely stopped noting and could barely muster the mental energy to continue. Tried opening my eyes and continuing, but that just felt more abrasive. Noted lots of '˜frustration', '˜wanting', '˜analysing', '˜judging', '˜remembering'(the clarity and success I felt during last night's sit) and physical discomfort - lots of itching (which was there before I started sitting) and aching. Some full body rushes and occasional forehead/head tingling. Nowhere near as much as usual though.

About ¾ of the way through I tried just dropping the noting and the effort and frustration that was associated with it. Tried to gently maintain a position of objectivity - watching the thoughts and sensations but not being them. This kind of felt right for a bit, but then '˜doubt' and '˜judging' crept in, and I feared that I was not making the most effective use of my time so returned to noting.
Tried noting out loud for a couple of minutes, but would end up silent after a while as I ran out of mental energy and totally zoned out again.

Persisted with mental noting with eyes closed, and started to gain momentum near the end of the sit. I think I just started to wake up near the end. Wishing I could sleep longer and still get 2 x 1hr sits in per day, but I can't fit that into my daily schedule, so I'm getting up at 5am regardless of what time I got to bed =/

20101121 - PM - 1hr

Really unfocused sit. Resolved, relaxed, started noting, but couldn't keep forming words (mentally) to describe phenomena for more than about 10 seconds at a time. After a couple of minutes, I decided to experiment with just going with the flow and noting whatever I could - trying to not let it cause frustration and striving. I realised that I couldn't recall any instance of straining to concentrate/note harder that actually achieved anything other than frustration and doubt.

So I sat for the majority of the hour noting every 2-5 seconds, and really not hitting the thought/sensation as clearly as I usually would, but still being aware of it. Noticing mostly thoughts and feelings - lots of remembering thoughts and visual thoughts, and feelings of analysing, judging, wanting and pondering.

Interestingly, I experienced some tingling around the forehead and pressing in the third eye area and on the crown of the head that usually only occur when I'm really nailing the noting with clarity.
For a couple of minutes there was a feeling like a gentle weight pushing down on the front of the crown of my head. I haven't felt this sensation before, the feelings of pressure are usually restricted to the third eye and temples.

Became really uncomfortable near the end of the sit, noticing intense aching in the back and leg and reacting to this negatively. Noting '˜wanting, wanting, aching - unpleasant, imagining, wanting'. Finally decided to swap my legs around (which I usually never do) and discovered that my right leg was completely numb due to sitting on it. After moving, I was feeling very impatient and uncomfortable, so I actually caved and checked how much time was left on the timer. It was only 28 seconds, so I laughed to/at myself and at the thought that if it'd just stuck it out for another minute or two instead of deciding to move I would have made it through!

"Wishing I could sleep longer and still get 2 x 1hr sits in per day, but I can't fit that into my daily schedule, so I'm getting up at 5am regardless of what time I got to bed =/"

Hi Kirby,

I too have some experience on early morning practise, since for five years now I have got up at 4.30 AM to get my two hours of practise before the kids wake up. What has motivated me is the thought that this is the only time of the day possible for me if I want to practise at all. I wouldn't even dream of meditating without my asana practise first though. You might want to try that to really shake off the drowsiness and get the energy moving.

Antero.

Kirby, I wouldn't worry about the lack of concentration. It probably means that you are accessing more subtle layers of mind, where concentrations in the sense that you are familiar with becomes hard or impossible. From your description I get the feeling that you are doing it right: noting whatever comes up, even if it is nothing else but striving and frustration. Nothing else is needed.

You are going full steam ahead even if it doesn't always feel like it.

Antero.

"Kirby, I wouldn't worry about the lack of concentration. It probably means that you are accessing more subtle layers of mind, where concentrations in the sense that you are familiar with becomes hard or impossible. From your description I get the feeling that you are doing it right: noting whatever comes up, even if it is nothing else but striving and frustration. Nothing else is needed.

You are going full steam ahead even if it doesn't always feel like it.

Antero.
"

Hi Antero!

Thanks so much for the reassurance! I have been leaning toward this idea recently - that these periods of not being able to concentrate as clearly as in the past are part of the cycle and there's not much I can do about it - except note it

Regarding asana practice - I usually do a couple of salutations to the sun after my sit, but I might try doing them beforehand and see how that goes. I've found that 15-20mins of walking meditation has helped me wake up in the past, but at the moment I'm in this place where I feel like I just want to sit and note all the time, so I've dropped all of the additional bits and pieces I used to do (loving kindness, walking, physical exercise before meditation). I'm sure I'll feel the need to incorporate these additional exercises back into the routine at some point

20101122 - AM - 1hr

Really tired again this morning. Tried doing 2 x salutations to the sun before sit (I usually do them after sit) to maybe get some energy moving. Resolved, relaxed, started noting.

Began noting out loud with eyes open, noting mostly '˜tiredness, tiredness, dullness, tiredness'. Some thoughts and sensations were clearly noted for the first few minutes, then the clarity completely dropped off again - just like last night's sit. So I just continued to internally note '˜drowsiness, sleepiness, analysing, judging, wanting, spacing out, spacing out, tiredness, aching - unpleasant'.

Physical discomfort and tiredness dominated the sit. For most of the time I was noting '˜aching -unpleasant, aching - unpleasant, sleepy, heavy (eyelids), wanting (to lie down), aching - unpleasant'. Opened eyes for most of the time as I seemed to remain slightly more alert like this, however '˜sleepiness, heavy (eyelids)' then became frequently noticed.

On 3 occasions a sense of anxiety arose. I noted '˜anxiety, anxiety, tension, tightness - unpleasant, hotness - neutral, wanting, frustration'. Upon noticing the mind state (anxiety), the physical symptoms took centre stage, then associated thoughts (wanting to not feel anxiety, frustration at not being free from anxiety), then the usual thoughts and sensations resumed.

On reflection, the last two sits have been physically and mentally painful and dull, but I'm not carrying a negative vibe into my daily life afterward like I used to. I think this is due to dropping the preconception that when I sit I should be perfectly concentrated and happy or I'm doing it wrong, and feeling that by just noting to the best of my ability - without straining and causing additional frustration - I'm actually doing it right and ultimately benefiting myself in the long run.

"On reflection, the last two sits have been physically and mentally painful and dull, but I'm not carrying a negative vibe into my daily life afterward like I used to. I think this is due to dropping the preconception that when I sit I should be perfectly concentrated and happy or I'm doing it wrong, and feeling that by just noting to the best of my ability - without straining and causing additional frustration - I'm actually doing it right and ultimately benefiting myself in the long run."

Sounds exactly like what I'm going through. Practice can become another source of frustration if we aren't careful. Sounds like you've got a handle on it, and your practice seems great. Keep on and you'll get there!