KFD Meetups

Hey Jack,

Where were you when I was in Chi-town? I'd loved to have spent time with your group! That is probably my fault for not really looking hard enough for sangha there. Anyway, I can identify exactly with what you are saying. I spent years doing concentration practices everyday and did not get even close to stream entry, though it did launch me to A&P. What is the deal with this place? Why are the people here making progress so fast? Is it self-delusion? Is it wishful thinking? Is it just a bunch of elite superstars of meditation all in one place? Is it an outstanding technique?

The answer is that I don't think any of us really know for sure. But I'm one of the one's making some pretty bold claims to attainments, so I can at least weigh in on what did the trick for me. For me, the thing that mattered most was have a very clear set of expectations about what the actual practice is moment to moment combined with unashamed goal-setting. The moment to moment practice was so precise in expectation that Kenneth spent a few skype calls actually coaching me through a sit, where we would take turns noting aloud and systematically learning and applying the four foundations of mindfulness with the technique. Getting such precise instructions left me no wiggle room to doubt whether I was or was not really "doing it." It is one thing to read about it, and it is a bit better to hear it in a dharma talk or to share the practice with friends at a similar level to your own, but it is entirely a different matter to have what many would argue is literally a master of technique coach you through it moment by moment and correct you when you are off-track.

That direct coaching, combined with a very detailed map of what the nanas and jhanas were and what the whole path start to finish looked like really worked wonders, because when you start to get results it is like an immediate feedback loop.
Cont...

The feedback comes from the map. You know that even if you feel disoriented or awful, you are actually making progress on the map, and that increases the faith in what you are doing, which increases motivation, which increases effort, which increases progress, which you can actually map, etc.

For me, it was this combination of a specific precise moment-to-moment instruction combined with knowing where I was going that worked. I believe that these qualities are actually missing in most western meditation communities, where moment-to-moment coaching is not really a style I've seen embraced by anyone (except for psychotherapists teaching mindfulness) and mapping out the whole path and setting such clear goals is seen as somehow "un-Buddhist" according to a western perspective.

Anyway, hope all this helps. Like I said, I totally understand where you are coming from.

Thanks for the explanation Kenneth and Ron, I've wondered this myself many times.

Thanks for the reply, Ron and Kenneth. They were very useful. You are right in that the difference between your technique and the ones I have used is being goal orientated, specifically being goal orientated in "technical meditation achievements." By that I mean the following. My goals during meditation has been to become more comfortable in my own skin (decrease my suffering) and to decrease the suffering of others. For many years I would say that to myself at the start of each meditation. Now it is internalised so I don't have to remind myself. During some meditation sessions I might have a goal of working on mindfulness of a certain object such as vedana (feeling tone) or the material elements. But, once this felt comfortable, I would use future sessions to just sit without any goal or trying to manage anything. This means deactivating the "I", my subjectivity. When I lead a guided vipassana meditation, I stress this by saying, for example, "Increase your awareness to include your reaction to whatever enters a mind door. Let this awareness arise and fall away without trying to manage or control it." Not trying to manage or control what is already there is very important to me. If asked, I would say I had no interest in enlightenment or lofty meditation states because it was off into the future. If they came, fine.

You have given me much to ponder. Thank you.

Jack, can you please answer the question about where you practice in Chicago? I live near Chicago and would be interested in finding your group.

Thanks.

"If asked, I would say I had no interest in enlightenment or lofty meditation states because it was off into the future. If they came, fine.
"

And this right here is what I think is key! I spent years practicing insight with the same level of motivation for awakening as you have expressed above. I did not get it done till I changed my mindset. I believe if you don't give yourself permission to get it done, it is not going to get done. The good thing about having developed your practice as you have, you now have developed a very firm and desirable base to launch into attainment, and integration will be effortless. I would say you are primed to within a hair's breadth of stream entry and beyond, if not already there. It would just take a little shift in thinking, motivation and aim to do that.

I like to compare this community's ideas of motivation and goal orientated discipline to the Bases of Power as talked of by the Buddha: Desire and fabrications of exertion, persistence, intent and discrimination.

"Monks, whoever neglects these four bases of power neglects the noble path going to the right ending of stress. Whoever undertakes these four bases of power undertakes the noble path going to the right ending of stress. Which four?

There is the case where a monk develops the base of power endowed with concentration founded on desire & the fabrications of exertion. He develops the base of power endowed with concentration founded on persistence... concentration founded on intent... concentration founded on discrimination & the fabrications of exertion.

Whoever neglects these four bases of power neglects the noble path going to the right ending of stress. Whoever undertakes these four bases of power undertakes the noble path going to the right ending of stress." Translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu
www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/than...s/part2.html#part2-d

'” SN 51.2

Kenneth's point about self-selection is a good one. For example, I'm not making the kind of dramatic progress that others have made. As a result, I post less frequently. The thought is, "Do people really need to read about the gross-level phenomena that I noted this morning?" I try to do some updates here and there, but since I'm not an advanced yogi and cannot really help others make progress, and my own progress is not front-page material, I'm not as active a contributor here as, say, Ron, Clayton, Owen or Nik. My guess would be that we hear disproportionately more from these advanced students. The territory they are exploring isn't as straightforward as the earlier stages, so they are prone to discuss it with Kenneth and one another on the forum, and then they have this other motivation to help beginners and answer their questions. Hence, more posts. Probably, there are a lot of lurkers and/or infrequent contributors here who don't have as prominent a voice, just as a matter of course.

Regarding age, I'm 40, with a wife, 7-year-old identical twin boys and a freelance writing gig that requires me to make about $50k a year. I have ailing in-laws living in our basement who periodically require time and attention. I simply don't have the same opportunity to go on retreats or sit on the cushion all day as I might have when I was in my early 20s with no responsibilities. More free time, combined with Kenneth's goal-oriented approach, might contribute to the progress that some of the younger yogis have made. Take a look at The Hamilton Project blog w' all those anecdotes and photos of Nik on those long retreats, and even ordaining as a monk for a time. I think that's important to consider. (Certainly, nobody in this community would suggest that an older householder can't get it done. I definitely have a problem with skipping practice and/or failing to pay attention when off the cushion.)

" My goals during meditation has been to become more comfortable in my own skin (decrease my suffering) and to decrease the suffering of others."

This goal you mention is achieved, enhanced, improved, developed to a much,much, much, much greater degree post-1st and definitely post 4th path (which seems to be now stage 5 in the 7 stages as talked of by Kenneth). They can be considered attainments and most yogis don't really share a whole lot about how these attainments effect all avenues of their lives, but suffice to say....for myself....suffering levels have dropped to profoundly low levels. I think i can speak for Owen and Clayton as well in saying that we all have experienced this drop due to these attainments.

I didn't really get involved in this community and change my mindset to wear the medal of attainment, but to end suffering. To come out of self-centredness and the habits of mind that caused me untold miseries. So far, that is why i stick around, cos so far so I have achievd so much of why I got involved in Buddhsim and insight practice. Beyond my wildest dreams. I walk down the street and my mind can sometimes just feel in awe of the changes that have taken place within this mind/body organism. No wishful thinking, but real physical and mental , perceptual changes.

I dont suffer as I did pre-path. The relationship to phenomena has changed. And it isn't soemthing I thought over and came to a different way of thinking and approaching phenomena. The path moments changed my brain. They changed the way the brain percives things. With each attainment there was a real tangible change in the way the brain read phenomena. Due to these drastic changes, suffering levels dropped considerably. Attainment may seem like a dirty word to some, and we may focus too much on attainment here, but that is so people can get to these stages and "be happier" and have less stress and suffering in their lives.


Nick

cmarti,

Our group meets at a private home in Downers Grove. Our next meeting is January 30, 7:00 PM to 9:00 PM. We have been in existence for 18 years and have gone through a lot of formats. Now we just meditate usually having two 45 minute rounds with a walking meditation between. I could give you more details if you email me offline at This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it..

I sometimes tell my wife-to-be that I wish i could have a machine which allowed her to experience what has happened to my brain post 4th. I wish i could put it on her head and show her what all that mediation and path moments did to it. How there is no centre point of an illusory self, how the self at times can be seen so clearly to be just images and patterns of sensations, how the jhanas arise so effortlessly when i just think of one and up it comes, how letting go of all conditioned phenomena results in the weirdest of non-experiences and the cool bliss that results. How I walk down the street and at times there is no sense of observer but just the observed. Just objects, so free of any self-created colouring of experience.
They really need to invent a machine like that. More people would be convinced in a heartbeat to just go for it with all their resolve. Cos it's so frickn worth it!!!

Am i right?

Jack, e-mail on the way. Thanks.

"More people would be convinced in a heartbeat to just go for it with all their resolve. Cos it's so frickn worth it!!! Am i right?"

Convinces the h**l out of me, thanks Nick. Joel's words also resonate with me. I feel ridiculous posting my fledgling stuff on this site, and also feel self-conscious while practicing sometimes thinking about whether to include something in my journal. So, I've tried taking breaks from posting for a week or two at a time. But, simple-minded as it seems, I find I practice more earnestly and consistently when I post regularly, and I rationalize that no one is forced to read my ignorant stumblings about. Sometimes a yogi does check out my practice and gives some helpful pointers. Also, I think Kenneth can use my journal to get an update on my practice before a Skype. So, on balance it seems like the practice-oriented journaling and peer support (and, hate to admit it, competitive drive) have been a tangible boost to my practice, and could be an extension of the practice that is maybe unique to KFD, and Dharma Overground.

What is the technical hook-up that was used for these meetings? Phone? Computer? How?

I notice KFD Meeting one was very clear while the most reent one had static. WHat was different in the hook-up?