Justin's Journal 2

I worked pretty much non-stop yesterday, and by the time I was going to sleep my head was so wrapped up in thought mode that attention wouldn't stay on the body for more than a couple of seconds.

When I woke up this morning, the thought loops were persisting so I decided to sit.

One thing I noticed yesterday was the odd persistence of solidity of things. I realized that lately I do not assume that things are solid, but yesterday they appeared quite solid.

I decided to concentrate on a dot on the wall. It was stubborn, but about two minutes later it started to desolidify and the kryas began.

Eyes fluttered rolled up into the back of the head.

Body bliss - probably 3rd jhana

A facial expression of surprise

Some itching and pain and some thoughts about it

Thoughts further subsiding, the breath coming on line

Still some scatter brain, a pulsing in the head, and then very little mental activity happening

breath coming back on line, a recognition of awareness

concentrating on awareness, the eyes open back up. There is a feeling of all phenomena being seen. I am done meditating and decide to stand up.

Am I hanging out in a jhana?

The annoyance this morning at the persisting thought loops and the couple of thoughts during this session about pain were the first things that I would label as "suffering" that have occurred in the last couple weeks.

It occurs to me though that that word is very slippering and my definition of it may not be subtle enough...labels...weird.

Hard to say. I've experienced some quite subtle aspects of 6th, which seems the best candidate here. Lack of solidity seems for me something that might be an aspect of 5th jhana. But having something like jhanic aspects as a permanent part of experience seems quite common.
Checking question could be: (better suggestions very welcome)
"How is it known that all phenomena are seen",
"is this "being seen" a thought?"
"Is there awareness apart from it's objects. Is there any sort of space within which things are experienced." (this doesn't distinguish jhana from the maybe-equivalent clinging-to-awareness. I'm considering how to do that.)

Alternately, try letting go of this "being seen", as well as any "being seen as something. This might cause a jump to some aspect of the 7th jhana. However, i think that might happen whether you were experiencing some aspect of the 6th jhana (meaning you had mostly let go of the aspects of the lower jhanas as they shape experience) or not.

Hanging out in a jhana would not necessarily be bad, i think. I think it *can* be *just* having let go of (attention) clinging to the factors of experience related to the lower jhanas. But these are deep issues. Home someone else can enlighten ud.

"The annoyance this morning at the persisting thought loops and the couple of thoughts during this session about pain were the first things that I would label as "suffering" that have occurred in the last couple weeks.

It occurs to me though that that word is very slippering and my definition of it may not be subtle enough...labels...weird."

It seems to me that after some point the word 'suffering' does not adequately describe the experience. Substituting it with 'resistance' does better job.

I have also noticed some phases when everything around me seems to solidify and seeing through the illusion does not happen easily. After a while effortlesness returns agaín and becomes more seamless.

"Hard to say. I've experienced some quite subtle aspects of 6th, which seems the best candidate here. Lack of solidity seems for me something that might be an aspect of 5th jhana. But having something like jhanic aspects as a permanent part of experience seems quite common. "

Arupa jhanas are aspects of the nature of the mind itself, so it is no wonder that with time the everyday experience becomes more and more jhanic. Using the aspects of arupa jhanas during the day juxtaposing them (feelings of space, consciousness, nothingness and singlenessness) with sensory experience is a good way to train the mind to recognize the nature of the mind everywhere.

"Arupa jhanas are aspects of the nature of the mind itself, so it is no wonder that with time the everyday experience becomes more and more jhanic. Using the aspects of arupa jhanas during the day juxtaposing them (feelings of space, consciousness, nothingness and singlenessness) with sensory experience is a good way to train the mind to recognize the nature of the mind everywhere."

Something i've been wondering: What is the relation between the feeling of consciousness as an aspect of mind, and what we call noticing awareness?

"Something i've been wondering: What is the relation between the feeling of consciousness as an aspect of mind, and what we call noticing awareness? "

Very good question and so far I haven't found an answer to it. It seems to me that the answer lies in the no man's land between Hinayana and Mahayana traditions.

Hopefully someone wiser than me can answer it

"One thing I noticed yesterday was the odd persistence of solidity of things. I realized that lately I do not assume that things are solid, but yesterday they appeared quite solid." -- Justin

"I have also noticed some phases when everything around me seems to solidify and seeing through the illusion does not happen easily. After a while effortlesness returns agaín and becomes more seamless." -- Antero


Yes, this is very familiar to me, too. I notice this effect when I'm tired, especially. It is also when I'm tired that thoughts come faster, more chaotically, and tend to be perceived as more solid. I also notice this effect in the morning for a short time after waking up. It lasts for a little while and then it's gone again. And... I've been ill for a few weeks and the sense of things being more solid has been more pronounced then, too. Weird, but I think quite understandable as being tired, being ill, and being sleepy can all sort of "deduct" from our moment to moment mindful awareness

This is great stuff guys. Thank you. I am going to come back to some of Villum's great comments later on today.

Can anyone clarify for me the relationship between the perception of solidity and the jhanas/nanas?

Also, Antero, you say "Arupa jhanas are aspects of the nature of the mind itself". What gives you this idea or what aspects are being seen that allows you to come to this conclusion? I'm very curious about this.

My take on the perception of solidity and the jhanas.
*In general*, things no longer seem solid in the 5th jhana. Space permeates all. (if someone thinks another jhana is a better candidate, please say)
This is also the case if you're not absorbed in some jhana, but is just tuning into boundless space by letting go of (clinging to) perceptions of form (which limit space). To explain about this alternate approach to jhanas: you perceive the walls in your room. However, there is an aspect to this that involves the sense of space itself being limited by those walls. I think this is part of what in the suttas is called "Perceptions of form". This space-itself-being-limited seems to be created by some sort of (seen as) "projected" vibrations. Now, i would guess that you are normally in space-is-boundless mode, where there is no impression of the mind being confined within the room you are in, no impression of space itself being confined to the room you are in, and no impression of attention having to go around obstacles in order to be directed at something.
Note that this is not necessarily the correct interpretation of the way you perceive things as not solid, but it is the best jhana-based one i can come up with right away.

"Can anyone clarify for me the relationship between the perception of solidity and the jhanas/nanas?"

Justin, in my experience everything about practice, including jhana/nana experiences, has been about dropping the sense of solidity. As my practice continued the sense of the solidity or permanence of anything faded. This included the nana/jhana aspects of what Kenneth calls First Gear, although when I bring this into focus the empty nature of things has less to do with First Gear practices and much more to do with Third Gear, which seemed to show up on its own somewhere between first and second path in the Theravada model we're used to using here.

These are interesting questions that I always suspect vary from person to person. The maps are good down to about 10,000 feet, then individual "stuff": seems to take precedence.

JMHO

"This is also the case if you're not absorbed in some jhana, but is just tuning into boundless space by letting go of (clinging to) perceptions of form (which limit space). To explain about this alternate approach to jhanas: you perceive the walls in your room. However, there is an aspect to this that involves the sense of space itself being limited by those walls. "

Interesting. If I am in a Witness state, it appears that the walls of the room are co-arising with me and are traveling along with me from present moment to present moment. When my attention is away from them, they basically cease to exist. Unless I am touching them, they have no (not much?) assumed texture.

If I concentrate and touch on a no Observer state where there is just luminous phenomena, then there is nothing I can tell you about walls. Somehow the experience of seeing light on a wall is now totally separate from the concept of wall, as those two things seem to be very little correlated. One is the experience of seeing, one is the experience of a thought.

I may or may not be able to carry on a conversation about walls in this state. There is simply a strong sense of having no clue about anything thats going on.

So perhaps these two states correlate with different Jhanas? Perhaps the first is the 5th Jhana and the second is the 6th or 7th? Both seem to have no assumption of solidity.

I might have spoken too early about the solidity thing in relation to fifth jhana, after some initial tests. I still *think* it's right though.

The no Observer state does not ring any jhana bells for me. I may be able to touch something like it a very little bit - i describe it as awareness resting as the self-experiencing nature of all objects.
The phenomena i talk about in relation to walls, it seems to me, can be tested by passing an imagined ball through the wall. If the wall seems like an obstacle to the imagined ball, you're probably not entering the aspect of 5th jhana i'm talking about (letting go of objects as solid to attention).

Villum - I've been thinking about this stuff since we last talked. I think you're on to something for sure. This reminds me of something Kenneth guided me into one time. We talked about putting a mental finger through a solid object and doing that enough tuned me into this big emptiness (that's how I describe it, though it seems devoid of anything really describable other than it's some how the other side of the coin of waking consciousness). When I tune into this (basically doing what you are talking about above) things become dream-like and somewhat unreal (magical display). For example being aware of this by poking around a point of tension makes the tension seem ghost-like and un-problematic. Kenneth mentioned the term "unarisen nature of mind" when we went through this.

I'll play around with it some more.

"The unborn omnipresent base dissolves your impulsions and delusions:
Do not be conceited or calculating but rest in the unborn essence
And let all conceptions of yourself and the universe melt away."

I am curious about the imputed existence of things below the level of gross thought. For some reason, I have a sense or feeling or belief that the next room in my house exists. Is it possible to see this subtle mechanism of belief? It seems so, since I once imputed a belief in a strong sense of self that has faded. curious.

I know that it also doesn't really matter. If awareness is concentrated on, any subtle belief or lack of belief doesn't really matter and the whole process of investigating this topic doesn't really matter.

"We talked about putting a mental finger through a solid object and doing that enough tuned me into this big emptiness (that's how I describe it, though it seems devoid of anything really describable other than it's some how the other side of the coin of waking consciousness). When I tune into this (basically doing what you are talking about above) things become dream-like and somewhat unreal (magical display). For example being aware of this by poking around a point of tension makes the tension seem ghost-like and un-problematic." -Mumuwu

"For some reason, I have a sense or feeling or belief that the next room in my house exists. Is it possible to see this subtle mechanism of belief?" -Orasis

Peter Baumann says that for something to qualify as "reality" it must seem real from the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd person POV's. This makes sense to me. 1st person: something looks real to me; 2nd person: I consistently share this sense of reality with others; 3rd person: it stands up to the scientific method.

In the case of 1st person reality, something may look real to me most of the time, but I can play with it, as in the case of putting an imagined finger through a solid object as described by Mu. I don't think this invalidates its inherent reality, though, since the 2nd and 3rd party tests remain valid (apparently there really is a sofa in my living room even though I can mess with the 1st person perspective).

But this points to the fact that everything we can experience is a representation in the brain. There probably is a reality, but we do not experience it directly. Our senses bring information, which is incorporated into the mental representation. To see this directly in real time does not invalidate external reality, but it does blow the self out of the water because the sense of self is seen as just another phenomenon momentarily arising in the field of experience.

Thanks Kenneth. These points are very useful.

"To see this directly in real time does not invalidate external reality, but it does blow the self out of the water because the sense of self is seen as just another phenomenon momentarily arising in the field of experience."

Okay yes, and I suppose the important point is that I've always assumed that I could experience "rooms" in the field of experience, but there was never an assumption that I could experience "self" in the field of experience until it happened.

Another peak experience going on tonight. The Witness is dropped. There is just phenomena. There is no meditation to be done. There is the thought of being quite comfortable with the Dzogchen view. There are no mind states even as I am jamming out to music, it is just hearing and body sensations/reactions.

"But this points to the fact that everything we can experience is a representation in the brain. There probably is a reality, but we do not experience it directly. Our senses bring information, which is incorporated into the mental representation. To see this directly in real time does not invalidate external reality, but it does blow the self out of the water because the sense of self is seen as just another phenomenon momentarily arising in the field of experience."

Well said!

Yes. I am 30 years old. It's interesting to investigate - what was it that appeared 30 years ago, without my choice, by which I know I exist. Is not all experience, including joy and suffering arising from that which appeared.

Isn't this where someone says, "But what was your face before you were born?"

My face was the face I had before my parents were born

But see, I'm old.

"There are no mind states even as I am jamming out to music, it is just hearing and body sensations/reactions."

Yes. So Justin, here's another question to ponder -- do you ever make a decision? When (if) you make a decision, what's really going on? Can you play that mind/brain processing scenario out?

Sat for about an hour tonight. Cycled through all sorts of states, the most interesting of which involved various intense facial expressions - grimacing, sneering, a weird joker-like smile, surprise, clenched teeth. Each would last for maybe a minute. There was no detectable mind states associated with these facial expressions, just thought whisps and the arising physical sensations of the muscles tensing in the face.

Most of the cycles would open up to a strong noticing of the breath with body, seeing, and hearing sensations. This is the same state I normally associated with recognition of awareness.

Even though my leg somewhat fell asleep and I'm sure there were other physical discomforts - nothing was detectably bothersome.

Travel - related overstimulation and sleep deprivation have brought back a level of background resistance that has been missing for some time. There is unpleasant tingling in my head, through my shoulders, and down to my belly. I lack either the concentration or the right inclination of the mind to see this tingling clearly which I believe is leading this to be interpreted as an unsatisfactory situation.

The mind lacks access to a confident knowingness of emptiness - it is now a concept and memory.