Compassion isn't an affective feeling: Discuss

"Yes there's always the problem of subjective vs. observable experience."

EXACTLY! That's the cause of much confusion, consternation and condemnation

Hi Loco,

Could you point to these accessible AF audio samples? The only one's I'm aware of are Tarin talking with Daniel and the AFT DVD's with Richard talking to Peter, Vineeto and Pamela(only Richard was AF at the time of those recordings). So, there is Richard and Tarin. Have you found others? I'd be interested in listening to those if you have. Apparently a number of AF and enlightened people have had their brains scanned by someone named Jud who is researching enlightenment. It will be interesting to see all of that info too.

Edit: I'm guessing you don't have Richard's DVD's so you must be referring to some other material besides the talk with Daniel and Tarin. What I'm wondering is if you have perhaps listened to some of Nick's/Owen's podcasts when they were pre-af. To my knowledge they have not done any podcasts since the AF shift. I'm just interested if there are more podcast's that I somehow have not found. If you'd prefer to email me directly about something I have missed instead of a public reply that would be just as welcome

thanks

aaron

"Just want to mention that from the Buddhist perspective as well as in my experience, vedana is not the primary (but secondary) cause of craving. Ignorance is the primary cause."

Agreed (and my experience as well).

However, insofar as ignorance operates, one can discern the progression vedana-->craving-->clinging-->becoming. (Ignorance cannot be discerned according to Buddhism because it is not an experience.)

"I completely agree with Xsurf and Alex. Emotion and craving is not the primary issue, rather ignorance or dulistic fixation and grasping is the primary or first cause of suffering and co-dependent origination. I would argue the alternative analysis is a false and confused one."

Insofar as I am involved in this discussion, I merely suggested observing this part of dependent origination.

According to Buddhism, the cause (ignorance) is reduced insofar as the path is practiced. And observing dependent origination is obviously included in practicing the path. I would say that observing vedana-->craving-->clinging-->becoming is one good way to wear away the ignorance that causes the progression in the first place.

Keep in mind that, in the Pali suttas, ignorance is not defined as "dualistic fixation", but is defined as not understanding the Four Noble Truths (which contain the entire Buddhist path).

"If we take the time the investigate with mindfulness, we see the illusion for what it is. As a result we certainly show physical symptoms of anxiety that can not only be picked up by sophisticated machines, but certainly also by external observers. Nevertheless, the person does not feel anxiety subjectively, but only experiences impermanent flows of physical sensations and thoughts."

I have observed (in my experience) that the "physical sensations" of anxiety are actually craving or becoming, not vedana.

Later parts of the DO chain masquerade as earlier parts.

"Pleasure and pain are not dependent on vedana...

One can feel both in a PCE but they are felt as they are with no mental overlay of positive/negative."

Mumuwu, in my opinion vedana has nothing to do with an overlay of positive or negative (the overlay being something in the craving-clinging-becoming progression).

When I observe vedana right now, it is pleasant, and to the extent that I observe it clearly, there is no mental overlay at all (no experience of pleasant in relation to a subject or in relation to anything). Just pleasant. Almost formless in a way.

It is possible that what you have identified as vedana is actually becoming, and what you have identified as "pleasure not dependent on vedana" is vedana.

"
"Yes there's always the problem of subjective vs. observable experience."

EXACTLY! That's the cause of much confusion, consternation and condemnation

"

I will state explicitly that, for myself, I have always been interested in the end of suffering, not in the end of 3rd person-observable behaviors that are typically related to suffering.

"Mumuwu, in my opinion vedana has nothing to do with an overlay of positive or negative (the overlay being something in the craving-clinging-becoming progression).

When I observe vedana right now, it is pleasant, and to the extent that I observe it clearly, there is no mental overlay at all (no experience of pleasant in relation to a subject or in relation to anything). Just pleasant. Almost formless in a way.

It is possible that what you have identified as vedana is actually becoming, and what you have identified as "pleasure not dependent on vedana" is vedana. "

Perhaps you've uncovered a blind-spot for me. Thanks!

I think it may indeed be craving (and the craving is read as negative).

by mental overlay I simply meant it is something that is not always there. That it is a formation.

Could you try to give pointing out instructions for vedana and tanha based on how you experience them?

"It should be first made clear that, in Buddhist psychology, "feeling" (Pali: vedana) is the bare sensation noted as pleasant, unpleasant (painful) and neutral (indifferent). Hence, it should not be confused with emotion which, though arising from the basic feeling, adds to it likes or dislikes of varying intensity, as well as other thought processes."

Hmm...

I don't think I am wrong actually - perhaps a misunderstanding.

This bare negative or positive feeling

Wanting it to cease is tanha, wanting it to continue is tanha, etc.

This bare feeling is not present in a PCE (hence why I called it mental overlay)

"pleasure and pain not dependent on vedana" comes from the fact that those claiming to no longer experience vedana still find steak delicious and a mouthful of salt to be disgusting. They also like sex and dislike being burned.

Can we all agree to this?

To the extent to which the mind has not comprehended (avijja) Truth, habitual drives manifest and condition (paccaya) awareness into a discriminative mode (viññana) that operates in terms of (paccaya) subject and object (nama-rupa) held (paccaya) to exist on either side of the six sense-doors (salayatana). These sense-doors open dependent on contact (phasso) that can arouse (paccaya) varying degrees of feeling (vedana). Feeling stimulates (paccaya) desire (tanha) and, according to (paccaya) the power of desire, attention lingers (upadana) and so personal aims and obsessions develop (bhava) to give (paccaya) (jati) rise to self-consciousness. That self-consciousness, mental or physical, once arisen must follow (paccaya) the cycle of maturing and passing away (jara-marana) with the resultant sense of sadness (soka) varying from sorrow (parideva) to depression (domanassa), to anguish (dukkha) and emotional breakdown (upayasa).
When the mind looks into the sense of loss and comprehends Truth (avijja-nirodha), habitual drives cease (sankhara-nirodha) and the awareness is no longer bound by discrimination (viññana-nirodha); so that the separation of the subject and object is no longer held (nama-rupa-nirodha) and one does not feel trapped behind or pulled out through the six sense-doors (salayatana-nirodha). The sense-doors open for reflection, rather than being dependent on contact (phassa-nirodha) and impingement does not impress itself into the mind (vedana-nirodha). So there is freedom from desire (tanha-nirodha) and attention does not get stuck (upadana-nirodha) and grow into selfish motivations (bhava-nirodha) that center around and reinforce the ego (jati-nirodha). When no personal image is created, it can never bloat up, nor can it be destroyed (jara-maranam-nirodha). So there is nothing to lose, a sense of gladness, uplift, joy and serenity (soka-parideva-dukkha-domanass-upayasa-nirodha).

-Bhikkhu Amaravati

"Could you try to give pointing out instructions for vedana and tanha based on how you experience them? "

If you observe your breath in such a way as to make as intense of a pleasant experience as possible, and you observe the place on your body that has the most prominent instance of becoming ('being'), you will notice

1) A sensation that is actually, genuinely pleasant; wholesome; pure; like ambrosia (vedana); unrelated to self-conceptions of any kind.

2) A "blob" of becoming ('you') hovering over it, distorting the experience into I-feel-this or I-like-this, which is garbage compared to the experience of pleasant vedana.

3) A temporally short pang of craving (tension-pain) sandwiched between the two.

If your dry insight skills are good, you can also notice clinging in between craving and becoming.

Notice that no amount of pleasant vedana and becoming based on pleasant vedana eradicates craving in the moment you experience craving. As I have experienced it, it cannot be "plastered over" by any sensation or form of becoming whatsoever. (Right view!)

By the way, if you can figure out how to generate these pleasant sensations by observing your breath, I would say that this is the road to "sutta jhana" (as distinct from the jhana we have all practiced on the path); something genuinely wholesome and extremely useful with respect to enlightenment. Generate the pleasure (vedana), ignore the craving-clinging-becoming, and just breathe in such a way as to maximize the pleasure. This disrupts the vedana-craving-clinging-becoming process if done well. I am working on a how-to post with respect to this alternative experience of jhana, and will post it when I'm done (probably on DhO).

""pleasure and pain not dependent on vedana" comes from the fact that those claiming to no longer experience vedana still find steak delicious and a mouthful of salt to be disgusting. They also like sex and dislike being burned."

It is possible that they are using the word "vedana" in a way which is non-canonical with respect to my understanding of the suttas.

Discerning the vedana-->craving-->clinging-->becoming fragment of dependent origination is harder than it sounds, and if one has not paid careful attention to that progression, the meanings and experiences they match to the individual words may not be the same as the meanings and experiences that one who has paid careful attention to the progression would match to the individual words.

Agreed

looking forward to your post.

"This bare feeling is not present in a PCE (hence why I called it mental overlay)"

If you observe what is experienced in your body in a PCE, that is the best guide to what vedana (according to my usage, and as far as I can see, according to the suttas) as I can give you.

What you are calling the "bare feeling" is most likely to be becoming.

Thanks EIS - > I'll definitely try and clear up my understanding of these terms.

In your experience of clinging/aversion/craving - is the felt experience of these vedana? For example, the negative, felt aspect of aversion (felt in the body) which is fueled by wanting said tension to end - leading to a more intense feeling over time.

"In your experience of clinging/aversion/craving - is the felt experience of these vedana? For example, the negative, felt aspect of aversion (felt in the body) which is fueled by wanting said tension to end - leading to a more intense feeling over time."

Not sure exactly what you mean, but maybe. (EDIT: On reflection, probably not. Assume that vedana are not negative in any normal sense even if they're nominally negative. One can have pain in a PCE and recognize that it is negative, but it is a very different experience from becoming-pain outside of a PCE.)

This is a good rule-of-thumb: any sensation that you are inclined to have an opinion on is probably not vedana.

This is another: any sensation that is genuinely pleasurable and completely tension-free and appears to have nothing negative associated with it, in the moment it's experienced, is probably pleasant vedana.

And here is a trick: if you have pleasurable sensations in your body, you will often feel "prickly" electrical currents on your skin. The "prickly" part is becoming (it is suffering; it seems pleasurable but is agitating). See what the prickly experience is ultimately caused by. Look a split-second or two before. (Depends on your dry insight skills.)

I think I get what you are saying.

I don't think I was seeing the tension as overlaying the feeling tone.

AHA!

Glad you were in a posting mood today. God knows how long it would have taken me to see that.

Back to the drawing board...

"I will state explicitly that, for myself, I have always been interested in the end of suffering, not in the end of 3rd person-observable behaviors that are typically related to suffering."


I absolutely get that this is true for some people here and elsewhere. On the other hand, I've always been interested in understanding the nature of mind and of my experience. I suspect this divergence in the specific nature of our explorations may cause actual differences in practices and a difference in experiences, even realization -- certainly in the order in which some realizations manifest.

***Again, my concern is that we tend to dramatically oversimplify what is really going on (massive complexity, parallel processing, multiple threads running in the brain/mind "community," the influence of chemical reactions like endorphins, glandular influences, and so on). We all tend to make assumptions and conclusions drawn from our personal internal experiences that may not map to the internal experience of others OR their perception of us from the outside.***

"If you observe your breath in such a way as to make as intense of a pleasant experience as possible, and you observe the place on your body that has the most prominent instance of becoming ('being'), you will notice

1) A sensation that is actually, genuinely pleasant; wholesome; pure; like ambrosia (vedana); unrelated to self-conceptions of any kind.

2) A "blob" of becoming ('you') hovering over it, distorting the experience into I-feel-this or I-like-this, which is garbage compared to the experience of pleasant vedana.

3) A temporally short pang of craving (tension-pain) sandwiched between the two.

If your dry insight skills are good, you can also notice clinging in between craving and becoming."

Amazing! It is as though you have set upright what was overturned, or uncovered what was ... etc etc.

No really though, this makes a ton of sense. i can see them happening simultaneously. i can tell kind of what the pure pleasure would be, though it is obscured. it is intuitively obvious what the 'becoming' is - a general blob of location/presence in that area. so, that tension must be the craving/clinging - it causes the blob, arises from the pleasant vedana.

it seems when the pleasure gets going that parts of the body will 'go weak', kind of 'open up', and attempt to 'dig into' the pleasure. this seems to be craving.

So, jhana the right way: generate pleasure (easy to do even with the way we have been doing it). find the pure vedana part, by no longer feeding the craving/clinging/becoming. repeat until no more craving?

"I think I get what you are saying.

I don't think I was seeing the tension as overlaying the feeling tone.

AHA!"

Can you describe what you have just noticed more explicitly? (I want to refine my explanations of vedana-craving-clinging-becoming so as to be clearer, so hearing your current understanding will help me.)

"So, jhana the right way: generate pleasure (easy to do even with the way we have been doing it). find the pure vedana part, by no longer feeding the craving/clinging/becoming. repeat until no more craving? "

Yes!

Incline your mind in such a way as to generate maximum pleasure, and you may discover previously unheard-of levels of concentration. (Even the neutral vedana of jhana 4 is "nice", so incline towards this "niceness" in jhana 4.)

"Maximum pleasure" means as close to dripping opiates directly into your brain as possible.

When I have done this, I cycle through jhanas 1-4 if I do nothing. However, in the context of the maximum level of concentration I have ever been able to attain doing this practice, shifting to 5-8 was, upon later reflection, absolutely eye-opening. (The formless jhanas are exactly as the suttas describe: boundless space transcending perceptions of form, boundless consciousness transcending perceptions of boundless space, etc.)

Also, notice these similes: www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca...a-samadhi/jhana.html

Every simile describes a *whole body* experience. I believe the experience of "mental focus" (the narrow-angle lens of jhana 1 for example) is related to craving-clinging-becoming. So, absolutely ignore any perception of mental focus, and you may see that every jhana takes in all of experience simultaneously.

When I looked at the pleasant sensation of the breath (vedana) I also noticed a tension hovering over it. I was conflating the two before.

For example I can see how both are there in 1st jhana and that the tension is the irritating aspect of it.

"So, jhana the right way"

Can we avoid the usage of "right way"

"I absolutely get that this is true for some people here and elsewhere. On the other hand, I've always been interested in understanding the nature of mind and of my experience. "

Do you discern vedana-->craving-->clinging-->becoming (a lawlike and continual procession of four types of experience)?

If so, do you notice I / me / mine occurring in relation to vedana, or (in this sequence) exclusively after vedana?