The end of suffering and its causes '“ NOT the end of feeling

Back to EIS's exercise: I find that it's really quite a way to practice.

For some regions (particularly head/throat), there is so much tension/stress/dukkha there that it was very hard to observe anything in that area. For those, I found that it helped to actually look at the vedana of the craving/clinging/becoming itself - the vedana coming off of the stress. There seemed to be a really tight loop there - painful becoming -> painful vedana -> volitional formation to clamp down on that region -> painful becoming -> painful vedana, etc. By observing the painful vedana I was able to loosen that loop... and once loosened I could start poking around for vedana coming off of a simpler thing (sense contact itself/volitional meditation producing pleasant sensations).

Great stuff, great stuff.

I have tried a little to practice this form of jhana End is talking about. I'm not sure i'm getting to vedana, it seems on the very edge of my perception.
There seems to be something that pops and buzzes and flows, and, somehow below that, there is something i try to focus on, an *experiencing pleasure with the body*, This seems quite physical, and may correspond to what End was (i think) calling Clinging in an above post.
Anyways, it seemed i misunderstood the way to do it, as i tried to generate pleasure purely in that part of experience, and ignore all the popping and buzzing and vibrating. This pleasure, or part of it, seems to go below tensions and below body image - my body image includes my glasses, but this pleasure follows the skin instead. I have a very hard time feeling my ears due to various tensions, but this pleasure, when properly rarified, includes pleasure from my ears.
Trying to include the senses of seeing and hearing and pleasurable seems to include touch-sensations around the eyes and in the ears that were hard to get at otherwise, as if these sensations are somehow mapped as part of those senses.

Is this somewhat in line with what others are seeing or am i perhaps not going deep enough.
I will try to start with the pleasure and then seperate it afterwards, instead of starting with the seperation.

If I tune into the subtle pleasant coolness of the air on my skin all over the body it feels physically pleasant (non affective). This leads to a pleasant affective energy which builds into the first two jhanas and sort of cools down in the third where the cool pleasantness is once again felt quite clearly.

Can the coolness be seen as pleasant vedana?

Villium, I found that if one focuses solely on maximizing the pleasure, everything will separate out spontaneously at a certain point. (This may not be your experience due to differences in our current modes of perception, but I think it will be.) But really, just maximize the pleasure. Imagine what it would be like if someone was bathing your brain in a solution of heroin. As close to that as possible. (It does not need to be that strong, but that is the goal.)

Don't worry about whether some sensation is is craving or clinging according to me or whatever. Just see if you can identify different experiences..layers of stuff that occlude pure pleasure. You can match them up afterwards.

Look at the pleasure that goes, as you said, "below body image". Remember the sutta I quoted; craving-related thinking includes stuff like "I am here" (which relates to body image). Vedana is before body image. Vedana is cognitively-unevaluated in that way. Look for a pleasure that is "unbounded" and "unlocated" (as much as possible) in terms of where in space it happens.

If you have a hard time feeling your ears, consider whether you feel some kind of craving-clinging-becoming experience over them, and (as you say) this exercise is showing you the vedana underneath that craving-clinging-becoming.

In general, incline towards anything that is genuinely pleasant and away from anything that has even the barest hint of tension of any kind.

EDIT: Also, I suggest paying attention only to your body, not other senses. (Do not shut anything out, just don't go searching for other sense-experiences besides tactile stuff.)

"Back to EIS's exercise: I find that it's really quite a way to practice.

For some regions (particularly head/throat), there is so much tension/stress/dukkha there that it was very hard to observe anything in that area. For those, I found that it helped to actually look at the vedana of the craving/clinging/becoming itself - the vedana coming off of the stress. There seemed to be a really tight loop there - painful becoming -> painful vedana -> volitional formation to clamp down on that region -> painful becoming -> painful vedana, etc. By observing the painful vedana I was able to loosen that loop... and once loosened I could start poking around for vedana coming off of a simpler thing (sense contact itself/volitional meditation producing pleasant sensations).

Great stuff, great stuff. "

I'm not sure what you're describing (as you are using different terms then me), but I have found that observing craving (which I experience as tension-pain) tends to make it go away, and reveal the vedana underneath.

In terms of this exercise, instead of paying attention to anything painful, try "breathing" some pleasure into the area that is occluded by tension, and see if you can observe 1) pleasure, 2) tension-pain, or whatever it is that may be craving for you, 3) a blob of I-feel-this, I-like-this over both.

Make the pleasure as strong as you can for the clearest effect. You may have to relax your mind in various ways to do this.

"If I tune into the subtle pleasant coolness of the air on my skin all over the body it feels physically pleasant (non affective). This leads to a pleasant affective energy which builds into the first two jhanas and sort of cools down in the third where the cool pleasantness is once again felt quite clearly.

Can the coolness be seen as pleasant vedana?"

I personally have no idea.

The reason I recommend this jhana-like exercise is that (to the extent that one can generate a large amount of pleasure) it produces a pure specimen of vedana, and one can observe how it may be different from other experiences that I claim are not vedana.

With enough discernment skills, it should also be possible to see that the various experiences that one examines in this way are appearing in a lawlike way...a progression from pleasure to various forms of suffering (the suffering being impossible to "overwrite" with pleasure, as the suffering is produced by the mind *in reaction* to vedana, as DO states.)

"Look at the pleasure that goes, as you said, "below body image". Remember the sutta I quoted; craving-related thinking includes stuff like "I am here" (which relates to body image). Vedana is before body image. Vedana is cognitively-unevaluated in that way. Look for a pleasure that is "unbounded" and "unlocated" (as much as possible) in terms of where in space it happens."

To clarify this...without the perception of borders or boundaries separating one's body from the rest of experience (and generally placing 'you' inside the body), there is a lack of "locatedness" concerning it. Pleasurable experiences seem to "bleed" out into nowhere...one may not be sure that the pleasurable experience is contained in the body, or is happening out in the world somewhere (as there is no perception of separation, no sharp line between body and world).

In other words, one's body image is a distortion of one's actual body, a sense of location superimposed on vedana. Do not expect the pleasure generated in this exercise to have anything to do with the distortion...do not look at the distortion...by inclining solely towards the pleasure, one gets a better idea of what their actual body is like, in terms of how it feels, and in terms of its complete unseparatedness from the rest of experience.

However, do not get absorbed in the emotional feeling related to the pleasure (another, different kind of "formless" experience)...the pleasure must always be physical. But, the easiest way to guard against this is to keep inclining towards what is purely pleasant, and away from what is "dirty" or not wholly tension-free.

EndInSight -- have you thought of creating your own Internet message board where you can teach your version of the dharma? Since this is Kenneth's forum I think we should at least try to stick to Kenneth's teachings, which in no way resemble much of what you are talking about these days.

You could have your own site and your own interested audience. For free!

Think seriously about this suggestion, please.

Thanks

Yes, after thinking about it after Chris put his foot down, any freedom to discuss such things about the possible progressions in Dharma have been stalled. It is best we (those who wish to speak about such progressions) all move to the DhO or the Hamilton Project forum where such things can be talked about freely. End, feel free to discuss it at the HP as well. I would also read your forum if you set up one.

Nick

Chris, as I have been describing nothing other than my understanding of the suttas (which I believe to be a quite straightforward and uncomplicated interpretation) as well as my own particular experiences doing 1st gear practices that are well within the range of practices endorsed by Kenneth, I was not aware that there was a problem.

To the extent that talking about various interpretations of the suttas and talking about the results of 1st gear practices is not appropriate on KFD, I will be happy to spend my time elsewhere (in this case on the DhO or HP).

Keep in mind that, as Nick and I have changed our modes of perception doing practices that are well within the range of those endorsed by Kenneth, if open and frank conversation about what we have found for ourselves, how we got there, and what kinds of things we can see from having gotten there are not welcome at KFD, there is a serious risk that people will perceive KFD as a place which they will eventually outgrow...as, if they pursue similar practices, and experience similar changes, and observe similar things about their experience, they will be unable to talk about them unless they go elsewhere.

In any case, I recognize that this is not my forum, and so if this kind of discussion is unwelcome, I will not argue about that. Let me know what you think.

Let's look at the situation objectively -- Kenneth has spent several years creating an audience that is now being used by others to advance a very different set of teachings. No one is saying the dharma can't be discussed here. It is now and always has been. What is begin said is that if folks want to diverge enough from Kenneth's teachings that what they say no longer resembles Kenneth's teachings then do the right thing and create your own space and you own audience.

Nick, I commend and admire what you do at The Hamilton Project. Jackson and I created our own forum that has a very different purpose and tone than KFDh. It's what folks do so as not to disrupt someone else's hard won audience.

I'm going to be firm on this because it really is a fairness issue.

I would also like to say that, as I have mentioned many times, I do not believe that the practices Kenneth endorses conflict in any important way with what I'm saying, and the biggest problem is one of terminology. I have proposed various ways by which one might try to understand my experiences and terminology, and have asked for particular things that I could do in order to understand others' experiences and terminology. However, no one (literally no one!) who has stated explicit reservations about what I'm saying has shown any interest in trying to synchronize terminology in any way.

To the extent that some posters may find the claims that I or Nick have made about our current mode of perception to be interesting or worth understanding better, I cannot see any good reason that there has not been an attempt at this kind of reconciliation made on this thread.

EndInSight, Kenneth has made it very clear that he does not think what you are teaching here is what he teaches. He did so here, openly, just last week. The founder of this site believes you are deviating from the message he is trying to convey here. This is about being fair to Kenneth and to the people that come here for Kenneth's teachings. It's not an unfriendly request. No one is upset or angry but we are trying to do the right thing here.

"Let's look at the situation objectively -- Kenneth has spent several years creating an audience that is now being used by others to advance a very different set of teachings. No one is saying the dharma can't be discussed here. It is now and always has been. What is begin said is that if folks want to diverge enough from Kenneth's teachings that what they say no longer resembles Kenneth's teachings then do the right thing and create your own space and you own audience."

Chris, I understand why you're taking the position that you are, and see nothing unreasonable or unfair about it. However, I will take that to mean that the discussion being pursued on this thread is not considered appropriate for KFD. (Correct me if I am wrong.)

In that case, anyone who would like to continue this can find me at the DhO (and perhaps HP in the future).

I hope (and fully expect) that those who remain will benefit from Kenneth's teachings, so long as they choose to remain here.

You are correct. Best to carry the conversation you are having on this thread elsewhere. And thank you, as I truly appreciate your willingness to see this as it is intended.