The end of suffering and its causes '“ NOT the end of feeling

"That is not my experience of the phenomenology of craving, nor the experience of the people in the suttas."

I'm confused. Wasn't that the basis of your approach to the jhanas - pay attention to vedana, no longer feeding craving, in order to cut it off? What is that if not being mindful of vedana (of the vedana-craving link)?

EndInSight -

Would you agree that not being mindful of the senses leads to increased felt tension when doing direct mode?

mindful of the senses (pay attention to vedana)
felt tension (tanha)

(or if I'm wrong please correct me - I'm finding this line of inquiry quite helpful)

BALLS!

"I'm confused. Wasn't that the basis of your approach to the jhanas - pay attention to vedana, no longer feeding craving, in order to cut it off? What is that if not being mindful of vedana (of the vedana-craving link)?"

When it is cut off completely, but ignorance remains, that is a PCE ('awareness-release' in the suttas, I think); when it is cut off completely, and ignorance has ended, that is liberation according to the suttas.

Just because one can direct attention more to vedana and less to craving-clinging-becoming does not mean that one can end craving-clinging-becoming just by an act of will. One only continues to bias the process away from craving-clinging-becoming (which adds up over time). That is the whole problem of suffering...suffering continues due to the mind's inherent tendency to react with craving. The process of ending that reaction has been shown to be gradual for most of us who have attempted it thus far.

Another way to think of this is...if Kenneth's claim is true, then vedana-->craving-->clinging--->becoming could not be discerned (and I claim this is possible for me, with varying levels of clarity, as I type this post), as the mindfulness involved in discerning vedana would prevent craving from occurring, and so nothing would be there to be seen after vedana.

I think there is a stream of thought that thinks that just watching arising and passing away without any manipulation whatsoever is enough. Another stream of thought is perhaps that one can watch arising and passing away but with the idea to manipulate and experiment with cause and effect:

"Stress should be known. The cause by which stress comes into play should be known. The diversity in stress should be known. The result of stress should be known. The cessation of stress should be known. The path of practice for the cessation of stress should be known." Nibbedhika Sutta

and as Thanissaro says:

"There will come the point where you ask yourself is it worth. As long as the path hasn't been fully developed, yes it is worth it. But as these factors get more and more developed you begin to realize this is as far as fabrication can take you. And you begin to lose your taste. You're feeding on these fabrications, that is where dispassion comes in. You lose your passion for fabricating and because you lose that passion, the process of fabrication begins to fall apart because after all it did depend on factors coming out of the mind, the mind's hunger for these things, its thirst for these things.
When it's no longer hungry or thirsty, it just stops.

Continues...

"Would you agree that not being mindful of the senses leads to increased felt tension when doing direct mode?"

I'm not sure. I can't check this out for myself in the way that you can, and I did not put these things together until somewhat recently. However...

Doesn't not being mindful of the senses lead to increased felt tension most of the time?

When you're not paying attention to the senses, what is happening? Does your experiential field shrink, or does it merely *feel* as if it shrinks? If the latter...why?

When I advert to jhana 1, which supposedly has a narrow focus (shutting out sense-experience), all I notice is a wave of craving-clinging-becoming trying to cover up various parts of the experiential field, which is experienced as a kind of tension. But, I can see the sense-experience "through" the craving-clinging-becoming just fine. (The becoming is characterless, like a thin layer of nothing...this may be different from your experience.)

Have you ever had a PCE in which there was a felt sense of attention being narrow? If not...why not?

In general, when you're not paying attention to something, you might want to check to see whether it's because it's left your experiential field, or because there's craving-clinging-becoming over it.

Also, check the same out in jhana 4 (which has a felt sense of "wideness").

"BALLS! "

LOLZ!

Continued from my last post above...

And when it stops, everything else stops. That is where you let go of everything, even the path, even the discernment that got you there. This is how we understand fabrication. This is what insight is all about. Not just watching things arising and passing away but realizing the extent to which the mind causes them to arise and to pass away.

You've got to dig down into this deep level. That is why we work with the breath because the breath goes really deep into your awareness both of the body and of the mind. When you are close to the breath you are close to the sources of fabrication that is where you can see how these things come about. As you manipulate them you get a sense of their range. How far they can go and how far they can't go.

This is why all of the great meditators of the past where not people who just got really tired of things and got really world weary and just stopped with a sense of depression. That is not how enlightenment is found or awakening is found. They really actively pursue it. How far can you go. What can you do to bring about true happiness. They used their ingenuity, they used the powers of observation. They actively explored. That is what brought them to the edge of fabrication and how they got beyond. END OF QUOTE dhammatalks.org/Archive/110829%20Exploring%20Fabrication.mp3

By the way, mumuwu, my comments about jhanas / focus / becoming are my own original research, not necessarily the consensus position of others. Confirm it or disconfirm it for yourself.

Understood and greatly appreciated.

"Tanha (thirst or craving) is what happens when vedana is not observed with mindfulness." -Kenneth

"That is not my experience of the phenomenology of craving, nor the experience of the people in the suttas." -EndInSight

Whoah! Here we have a major misunderstanding. The claim that tanha (craving) is dependent upon ignorance (lack of clear seeing) and that tanha is the cause of suffering is the very essence of the Buddha's teaching. The former is the conclusion of dependent origination whereas the latter is none other than the 3rd Noble truth.

For me, this is the simplest and least controversial of points, precisely because it is so well articulated in the suttas and because it jibes with my own experience.

In any moment that vedana is clearly seen, tanha does not arise. Why do you say that this is not the experience of those in the suttas?

The suttas define ignorance as not understanding [seeing for oneself] the Four Noble Truths (including the eightfold noble path, which itself contains the Four Noble Truths under Right View).

When one understands the Four Noble Truths completely / perfects the eightfold noble path, that is the end of ignorance.

Mindfulness is some of what one practices in order to develop the eightfold noble path, but the mere practice of it is not the perfection of the eightfold noble path (indeed, it is merely one factor of it). Thus, it is no surprise that observing vedana in a certain detatched way is not sufficient to prevent craving from arising after vedana, when one has not yet become fully enlightened. A moment of mindfulness is not the final end of ignorance, merely a small step on the way to it.

"[Upasiva:]
Alone, Sakyan, & with nothing to rely on, I can't venture across the great flood. Tell me, All-around Eye, the support to rely on for crossing over this flood.

[The Buddha:]
Mindfully focused on nothingness, relying on 'There isn't,' you should cross over the flood. Abandoning sensual pleasures, abstaining from conversations, keep watch for the ending of craving, night & day. ( www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.5.06.than.html )"

Isn't that strange advice to give someone, if one can observe vedana and put an end to craving then-and-there? Why would Upasiva keep watch for the end of craving when (due to the practices the Buddha is recommended) we would assume, based on your theory, that the end of craving would be a reality for Upasiva, only solidified by full enlightenment?

The reason this advice is given appears to me to be that, as ignorance is defined as "not having practiced the path to completion", the end of craving as an ongoing reality will not manifest for Upasiva until he reaches full enlightenment.

I would like to hear on what basis you believe that the doctrine of the Pali suttas is other than what I've stated.

My theory about this whole thing is simply that we are using "craving" to mean very different things, and talking past each other. I seriously doubt that, as a matter of practice, you could be describing something that I would find problematic; similarly, I seriously doubt that, as a matter of practice, I could be describing something that you would find problematic.

So, the key to this misunderstanding, insofar as I can see, is to figure out how to unite our terminology so that we can go back to communicating in a clear way about our experiences and the practice.

As a more general point, I will say that observing vedana is quite difficult, and a great deal of practice may be required in order to do it successfully. Even now, there are many parts of my body (internal parts) for which I simply can't observe vedana in any meaningful way without a great deal of concentration (but in these areas, I do observe big globs of becoming). To state that one can observe vedana mindfully and be free of craving, and offer that as practice advice, is in some ways like saying "well, one can win a Nobel prize and be famous" and offer that as life advice. It's great life advice, but (even if one would benefit from following it) there is a great deal of work that will have to happen in order to begin to be able to contemplate doing it effectively, let alone to actually do it.

If one could observe vedana with ease and cut off craving like that, I believe that would be tantamount to having the ability to produce a PCE on command. I do not believe anyone claims that ability (as I expect that anyone who had it would have progressed to a point at which it would be of no use to them quite quickly). I have stated before that I think one (the only?) characteristic of a PCE is that there is vedana but no craving-clinging-becoming during the time that the PCE lasts. (However, I have been reflecting on this quite a bit and think it's more likely that PCEs have minimal levels of craving-clinging-becoming, for reasons irrelevant to this thread.)

Hi EndInSight,

My experience is in accord with Kenneth's description; and I see no conflict between your descriptions. When mindfulness is applied without falter to vedana, as in direct mode, we can temporarily cut off Tanha. So we can practice direct mode and be free from suffering during this practice, despite not yet having attained final awakening.

As soon as our mindfulness falters, then Tanha, which has not been completely and finally uprooted until final awakening, resumes it's habitual tendency, and suffering arises as has been clearly delineated in this thread as per D-O. At final awakening, then as you say, Ignorance has been uprooted, the task is completed.

Thank you everyone for the clarity in this thread.

*gratitude*

Justin

"Mindfulness is some of what one practices in order to develop the eightfold noble path, but the mere practice of it is not the perfection of the eightfold noble path (indeed, it is merely one factor of it)." -EndInSight

Are you sure? Some very heavy cats would disagree with you. I once heard U Pandita give a brilliantly crafted talk in which he explained that every moment of sati (usually translated into English as mindfulness) contains the entire eightfold path. EndInSight, I'd feel more comfortable if you didn't make bold proclamations and assume the air of an expert in these matters.

"observing vedana in a certain detatched way is not sufficient to prevent craving from arising after vedana, when one has not yet become fully enlightened." -EndInSight

Who said anything about "a certain detached way"? This sounds like a straw man. The kind of mindfulness (sati) we are talking about is anything but detached. Furthermore, I completely disagree with your conclusion. A moment of sati is precisely what prevents craving (tanha) from arising in each and every instance. I've never seen it fail. Are you sure you know what sati (mindfulness) is?

"A moment of mindfulness is not the final end of ignorance, merely a small step on the way to it." -EndInSight

I don't consider this to be relevant, as I have never met anyone who I would consider to have come to the "final end of ignorance" in its most rigorous Buddhist interpretation. In other words, practically speaking, that is not the goal, nor should it be, IMHO. If you can be free in this moment, go ahead and do that; don't worry so much about stacking it up for the imaginary future. The law of receding horizons is a heartless opponent. Just be free now and now and let the future take care of itself.

"Hi EndInSight,

My experience is in accord with Kenneth's description; and I see no conflict between your descriptions. When mindfulness is applied without falter to vedana, as in direct mode, we can temporarily cut off Tanha. "

Hi Malt,

While in direct mode, I would often experience a 'repreive' from that burny-ness that I often thought to be 'craving and clinging'. So perhaps i know where you are speaking from. I went on to explore the mentally felt arising of self / self-obsessing chatter / being / presence / location in the world / subject to objects / duality / inner world / me-ness / being of any kind / being the absolute / being one with everything / being one with anything / being connected to everything / being space / being infinite consciousness / being no-thing-ness / being the void / being anything / imagination / the flow of time / existing / heightened refined moods of wellbeing/equanimity.

One or more of these would appear to be a part of my 'direct mode experience'. I gathered then that I was perhaps not interrupting the sequence of dependent origination but playing around with it. When it really was interrupted to drop away entirely, I would call that the PCE as none of the mentioned terms above were present. I gathered that perhaps I was not breaking the sequence if any of the above were arising as the sequence leading to becoming was still occurring. I was however, cultivating a highly refined 'equanimity'. THis type of equanimity was considered by myself to still be a result of the sequence of DO. The Buddha warned about this type of relished in and clung to equanimity in the Aneñja-sappaya Sutta. So, I changed tactics and instead of just observing, I played around with cause and effect. i.e. actualizing jhanas which is directly related to the Buddha giving instructions on rooting out the defilements by 'looking for an opening' to end them in the jhanas.

continued from above..

"If he wants, then through the ending of the mental effluents, he remains in the effluent-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known and made them manifest for himself right in the here and now. He can witness this for himself whenever there is an opening." Samadhanga Sutta

In my practice of direct mode, the sequence that had led to becoming as far as I saw it, had now led to a more refined flow of becoming. The Buddha talks about doing this to be able to discern the arising and cessation of stress and also to end it. The sequence of DO had not been interrupted but refined. Direct mode in my experience was great at subduing the hindrances and replacing them with peaceful states of mind. As far as I saw it, any mind state, refined or gross, was a result of craving and clinging. Like Nyanaponika in the quote in post 69 said:

"In the formula of the Dependent Origination (paticca-samuppada), this is expressed by the link: "Sense-impression conditions Feeling" (phassa-paccaya vedana). When emotions follow, they do so in accordance with the next link of Dependent Origination: "Feeling conditions Craving" (vedana-paccaya tanha)" Nyanaponika

Direct mode did trigger momentary PCEs in my experience so perhaps you are right that it did interrupt the sequence for you. But for me it was only momentary and there were longer moments of the mentioned terms above. Great way to refine the flow of 'being/becoming'.

This is my own take on all of this.

"I once heard U Pandita give a brilliantly crafted talk in which he explained that every moment of sati (usually translated into English as mindfulness) contains the entire eightfold path."

As you have claimed that you do not think that the Mahasi Sayadaw tradition has 10 fetter arahantship on their map, I am not sure why this is relevant from your perspective. (As I recall, your belief is that they think arahantship is technical 4th path. Assuming that's true, I would say that they do not use "craving" in the sense that I am using it.)

About the general point, we can have a sutta-quoting battle, but I don't think that is a desirable outcome. I will simply state that ignorance is defined as I claimed, and you can confirm that for yourself.

"A moment of sati is precisely what prevents craving (tanha) from arising in each and every instance. I've never seen it fail. Are you sure you know what sati (mindfulness) is?"

Perhaps, perhaps not.

We could talk about discerning vedana-->craving-->clinging-->becoming and see precisely how our terminology and experiences match up, if you like.

No one who disagrees with me seems to be interested in having this particular conversation.

"I have never met anyone who I would consider to have come to the "final end of ignorance" in its most rigorous Buddhist interpretation. In other words, practically speaking, that is not the goal, nor should it be, IMHO."

Respectfully, that attitude never helped me in my own practice, so I (personally) am not interested in adopting it now.

As for the general point about mindfulness and ignorance...I don't see why you would consider this not to be relevant, as the subject was, more or less, "what is the relationship between mindfulness and the ignorance that conditions craving?"

"My experience is in accord with Kenneth's description; and I see no conflict between your descriptions. When mindfulness is applied without falter to vedana, as in direct mode, we can temporarily cut off Tanha. So we can practice direct mode and be free from suffering during this practice, despite not yet having attained final awakening."

As I have practiced Direct Mode quite a bit in the past, and have (I thought) been reasonably successful with that practice, and have benefited from it, and *still* do not believe that mindfulness applied within Direct Mode cuts off craving (as a general rule), do you think it's possible that we mean different things by craving?

It is deeply surprising to me that no one who has disagreed with me wants to talk about vedana-->craving-->clinging-->becoming. That progression is the point of the article to which this thread is attached. Further, I am not talking about some exotic thing, but a simple observation made in context of the kind of 1st gear practice that we all know and support and find fundamental to the path. Finally, it seems that there is little hope of understanding each other (judging from how all these recent conversations have gone) unless we can synchronize terminology...I am happy to do what I can to understand others' experiences, but the attempt to understand will not succeed unless it's mutual.

Both beoman and mumuwu (in the thread about compassion) seemed to benefit from my explanation of what the progression is (as I have observed it) and how it works in experience. I think that testifies to the fact that I'm not talking about something esoteric or overly complex. It is a simple thing and reasonably easy to observe to a greater or lesser extent in context of jhana / working up to jhana.

"I have never met anyone who I would consider to have come to the "final end of ignorance" in its most rigorous Buddhist interpretation. In other words, practically speaking, that is not the goal, nor should it be, IMHO."

To say a little more about this point....

As I understand ignorance to mean "not having developed and perfected the path", I do not see why there would be any other goal involved in practicing the path. One practices to come closer to having perfected it. I am confident that you agree with this, even if you wouldn't have phrased it this way (and even if you think there should be no expectation that one will perfect it soon). It is not alien to your teaching. In fact, it is the reason that you have a teaching to begin with! So that it can be practiced and perfected.

It occurs to me that this is yet another terminological problem. Instead of talking about things using our own particular sets of terms which may not correspond with each other's, we could try to understand the experiences that the other is talking about.

Is there some explicit practice or attitude or etc. that you think would help me to understand your claim (that mindfulness prevents craving) and your definitions (what mindfulness is, what craving is), on an experiential level? If so, I will be glad to try it and report back about what my experiences were, so that you can try to match our terms up.

About craving, this sutta is interesting (as is Thanissaro Bhikku's note): www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.199.than.html

What an utterly different mode of experience it must be to be free of craving...never to contemplate such an innocuous-seeming thought such as "I am here."

"About craving, this sutta is interesting (as is Thanissaro Bhikku's note): www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.199.than.html

What an utterly different mode of experience it must be to be free of craving...never to contemplate such an innocuous-seeming thought such as "I am here.""

Plop!

reading up more on D-O, my take is changing:
- it matters not, thinking in terms of 'me' or 'not me' - just think in terms of suffering , its cause, cessation, and path to the cessation. thinking in terms of duality/non-duality doesn't seem as skillful.
- likewise in terms of emotion or suppressing emotion or what-not, is also less skillful than just looking at whatever happens in terms of the 4 noble truths. is it stressful? if you think something isn't, then just look again - there **WILL** be stress until final release.
- ignorance refers to ignorance of the 4 noble truths, which include the ability to apply them appropriately to whatever suffering arises (the path).
- ignorance is required not only to generate formations unskillfully (2nd link), but also for any link to go to any other link (which doesn't always happen in linear order)
- thus fully eliminating the ignorance at one link in the chain, will cause the entire process to collapse
- thus, observing any link, mindfully (keeping in mind the 4 noble truths, which include the 8-fold noble path), is beneficial
- D-O stopping doesn't mean consciousness and vedana, etc., disappear, just that they are not linked together by ignorance anymore. the mind is no longer bound. the aggregates are free. (though they themselves were always free... or rather it is inaccurate to talk about them being free or not. just the process of ignorance has stopped.)

it all seems to be about skill in dealing with suffering. the greater skill you have, the less suffering, until finally D-O stops for good. what does being mindful result in? learning about suffering. it's just about learning as much as possible about experience!

I agree with Kenneth that mindfulness can contain the entire 8-fold noble path. right mindfulness is only one factor, but i think everything you do, feeds into mindfulness. you are gaining skill in dealing with suffering via 4 aspects (recognizing it, it's arising, figuring out how it ceases, and developing qualities leading to the cessation). the more you learn, the more powerful a moment of mindfulness - remembering all that you have learned - is. everything feeds into mindfulness. watching suffering mindfully, leads to everything you know being applied automatically to end it. and in the process you learn more about it, so that later on, it is easier to do. and so on.

One moment of mindfulness will certainly not result in the end of suffering. But I think mindfulness is the most important factor. Mindfulness of what? Of the 4 noble truths (and thus the entire 8-fold noble path). I don't think there is any real disagreement among us on this topic, just perhaps a different way of phrasing things.