Descriptions of rigpa

A number of practices endorsed by Kenneth are focused on "rigpa", but I have never managed to figure out what this is. I have never managed to match it up to any terminology that I use or any theory I've managed to spin. But, my vague working theory on the matter is that rigpa may be some kind of preview of full enlightenment.

In any case, I would like to hear descriptions of rigpa / the state of apprehending rigpa / etc. (however one thinks about it), *as it has been experienced by people here*. It would be beneficial to me to hear about the phenomenology of this thing in a precise way, as I have never understood it when described in other, broader ways.

What is on-topic for this thread is phenomenological descriptions, questions aimed at clarification of those descriptions, and discussions of practices or attitudes that are helpful in apprehending (or unhelpul in apprehending) rigpa. What is off-topic for this thread is any debate or discussion related to the value or non-value of rigpa, etc.

It is possible that people will have different opinions on what rigpa is. Describing those different opinions, or recognizing their existence, is on-topic. Debate about what rigpa "really" rigpa is, is off-topic. The point of the thread is to talk about what kinds of experiences people associate with rigpa, however they use the term.

Discussion of whether rigpa relates to the PCE will generally be off-topic, as it would not about experience, but about theory. (There may be exceptions to this. Use your common sense. When in doubt, abstain.)

So, for those who are interested, please share your experience concerning rigpa.

Rigpa, to me and at this precise moment, is the undefined, ineffable nature that is present in discernable phenomena. Nothing can describe it, nothing need be done to see it, and it is completely empty of causes, effects, karma, nirvana, samsara, etc. It is the purest aspect of everything I sense with the six senses. "Purest" to me means: absolutely no definition, description, conception.

What I do to abide in rigpa:
- Read Dzogchen texts and let the texts point the nature of mind (which is rigpa).
- Read Mahamudra texts and let the texts point to the nature of mind.
- Practice ngondro (Tibetan Preliminary Practices), in my practice thread "Alejandro's report", you will find descriptions of my ngondro practice. These preliminary practices are similar to Kenneth's 1st and 2nd gear: they help practice 3rd gear. In the same way, ngondro helps you recognize Rigpa.

My attempt to point out rigpa in a very brief way:
Rigpa, the innermost essence of the nature of mind is beyond any characterization. Nothing need be done to abide in it, nothing to accept or reject. No need to alter pleasantness, no need to alter unpleasantness. All rises purely, all liberates itself spontaneously.

It might be interesting for you to review these threads on KFDh:


kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/thread/3332138/Rigpa

kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/thread/35...a+with+no-thought%3F

kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/thread/3392446/The+Great+Freedom .

kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/page/Cons...Primordial+Awareness

Well i guess the best way to get an idea of it is to get description from practitioner but also from scholars. There are so many misconceptions about dzogchen that sometimes it's good to check on the intellectual side..
Here are very thorough descriptions of dzogchen and rigpa. It's worth reading.

www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/archives/a...facets_dzogchen.html

www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/archives/a...uction_dzogchen.html

there is a lot more to read on the site about dzogchen and mahamudra.
enjoy

"Well i guess the best way to get an idea of it is to get description from practitioner but also from scholars. There are so many misconceptions about dzogchen that sometimes it's good to check on the intellectual side..
Here are very thorough descriptions of dzogchen and rigpa. It's worth reading.

www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/archives/a...facets_dzogchen.html

www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/archives/a...uction_dzogchen.html

there is a lot more to read on the site about dzogchen and mahamudra.
enjoy
"

I love that site. I've visited so many times to clear up doubts.

"Rigpa, to me and at this precise moment, is the undefined, ineffable nature that is present in discernable phenomena. Nothing can describe it, nothing need be done to see it, and it is completely empty of causes, effects, karma, nirvana, samsara, etc. It is the purest aspect of everything I sense with the six senses. "Purest" to me means: absolutely no definition, description, conception. "

How do you know when you are apprehending rigpa? How do you know when you aren't?

When you apprehend it, what (if anything) about your experience changes?

"It might be interesting for you to review these threads on KFDh: [...]"

Thanks for the pointers, Chris.

Part of my goal for this thread was to be able to ask questions in relation to people's descriptions, in order to better understand. (I have already heard rigpa described in all kinds of ways, sometimes in ways that seem to me to be quite contradictory.) I doubt that I can pull up a description that someone gave in the past and demand a clarification. However, for those who choose to post their descriptions here, that can be the basis for a conversation right now.

"How do you know when you are apprehending rigpa?"
Solidity "feels" transparent, without actually getting rid of solidity. Reality is apprehended as an hologram without disconnecting from it.

How do you know when you aren't?"
Whenever Im trying to accomplish something, trying to get something out of whatever, when Im fascinated with a sensation, when I feel repulsion, tension, when I feel Im struggling.

"When you apprehend it, what (if anything) about your experience changes?"
Shapes don't matter anymore, tension ceases almost immediately, what was labeld as impure it is almost immediately recognize as pure since the beginning.

"How do you know when you are apprehending rigpa?"

Also: "I" am sensed as part of the hologram as well, and my shape doesnt matter anymore. It all appears effortlessly like a gigantic hologram.

I have a couple more questions, but let's start with these few:

Is the apprehension of rigpa the same at all times? Can it be apprehended in part?

Separate from that, has your reflective understanding of it changed over time? Would you say that you (dualistically) saw certain things in it in the past which, upon further experience, you no longer see? Or is everything about the experience, and everything surrounding the experience, always completely identical?

"Is the apprehension of rigpa the same at all times?"
It has expanded. Since last year, it has been the same: empty, lucid, omnipresent. Before last year, I thought rigpa was something else, I thought it was something different from pain.

"Can it be apprehended in part?"
IMO yes. In a sense, thats how tantra works.

"has your reflective understanding of it changed over time?"
Yes, like I said, in the past I thought it was present only in certain types of phenomena (like in the arupa jhanas for example). Now I see it everywhere, even in dukkha.

"Would you say that you (dualistically) saw certain things in it in the past which, upon further experience, you no longer see? Or is everything about the experience, and everything surrounding the experience, always completely identical?"
In the past I was confused about it, I thought it was a phenomenon. Now I know it was never a phenomenon yet its present in every phenomenon.

"

"Can it be apprehended in part?"
IMO yes. In a sense, thats how tantra works.
"

yes, AP, good point. I'm tempted to say that every experience apprehends it in part*, as it's always already the unconditioned nature of every condition.

which is just another way of saying "how tantra works" come to think of it, eh?

*or misapprehends, if you prefer, but over time gaining familiarity with it, my experience of non-explicit rigpa (i.e., ignorance) seems to trend in the direction of explicit rigpa, if you follow. Like, ignorance has no substance, but is just another conditioned movement of the same unconditioned nature.

"ignorance has no substance, but is just another conditioned movement of the same unconditioned nature. "

Exactly. Another "wave" in the ocean.

""Is the apprehension of rigpa the same at all times?"
It has expanded. Since last year, it has been the same: empty, lucid, omnipresent. Before last year, I thought rigpa was something else, I thought it was something different from pain."


What caused the difference in your apprehension of it (i.e. what is the new thing about it that wasn't there before, or what is the old thing about it that isn't there now)?

"What caused the difference in your apprehension of it (i.e. what is the new thing about it that wasn't there before, or what is the old thing about it that isn't there now)?"

"The old thing that isn't there anymore" is still fading, not completely gone. The old thing is like an idea imposed on sensations that assumes itself existing.

So rigpa is "under" some kind of dualistic experience, and the dualistic experience fades as practice goes on?

Not really, it feels like that but when the fading continues, I can see rigpa is also the dualistic experience.

I'll echo what Alejandro said - become immersed in the writing or presence of a Dzogchen/Mahamudra teacher and experience what is pointed to.

In my meager experience, there are symptoms that correlate, but those symptoms can then be conceptualized and confused for the thing itself. Tsoknyi Rinpoche writes about experiencing and knowing Rigpa then periodically recalibrating to looseness, brightness, and lucidity.

Somehow thinking about Rigpa or trying to explain it, for me taints it. Perhaps this is not true of the masters giving the pointing out instructions - or perhaps those pointing out instructions are simply words pouring out of that place.

""Is the apprehension of rigpa the same at all times?"
It has expanded. Since last year, it has been the same: empty, lucid, omnipresent. Before last year, I thought rigpa was something else, I thought it was something different from pain.
"

Has your experience of Rigpa changed or is it your understanding of that experience that has changed?

"Has your experience of Rigpa changed or is it your understanding of that experience that has changed?
"

My understanding of it has changed and that has increased the size and depth of rigpa. But I think overall it has been the same experience.

"

In my meager experience, there are symptoms that correlate, but those symptoms can then be conceptualized and confused for the thing itself. "

Yes my experience too. The fireworks (of relaxing into the natural state) are side effects, but are easily taken for it itself at first.

The conditions under which one typically recognizes/relaxes can become associated with "it" and it can be easy to get in a situation where one (more or less unconsciously) attempts to bring about those conditions rather than actually recognize, at the beginning anyway. As the beliefs about what is and is not "it" gradually drop one by one, the wetness of each wave becomes more evident, regardless of the waves shape and movement.

That's more of less how I could try to describe the flavor of Rigpa: no one meditates, no one tries to reach or achieve anything; the mind rests in its natural condition; everything is allowed to be as it is; there are just luminous ungraspable thoughts, feelings, sensations and perceptions that arise and self-liberate according to causes and conditions; everything manifests as a magical display of the mind in an ungraspable luminous flow of experiences experciencing themselves; great perfection; emaho!

Thanks for posting this topic, EndInSight.

I've enjoyed the descriptions provided by Alejandro, Alex, and Jake, as they resonate with my experience of recognizing rigpa.

For me, there is a very spacious quality to resting in/as rigpa (the natural state). It's not the kind of spacious quality that results when space is taken as object. Rather, it's the spaciousness that results when even the concept of space is allowed to dissolve.

When letting-be in naturalness, there is no confusing essence with expression; no misperceiving of awareness and objects apprehended as appearances of awareness.

In the Dzogchen and Mahamudra teachings, as I understand them, reality is always as it is. The difference between the awareness of sentient beings and that of Buddhas is that for the former, awareness is suffused with ignorance. For the latter, awareness is suffused with wisdom. The primordial essence of mind (being insubstantial, non-local, and luminous/aware) is not falsely perceived as any particular separate object or series of objects that arise and pass. Clear, natural perception is apprehended when the conditioned false perceptions are allowed to pass away, and the tendency to buy into them is suspended. False perceptions may arise, but they (as others have noted) 'self-liberate'.

Also, I find that when practicing in this way I often have a slight smile on my face Simple happiness and contentment are characteristic of this practice.

One of my all-time favorite pointers for recognizing rigpa is Padmasambhava's "The Instruction of Pointing the Staff", which I shared with my fellow Dharma Forum Refugees not too long ago. I highly recommend it.

dharmarefugees.lefora.com/2011/09/11/pad...of-pointing-the-sta/

"Not really, it feels like that but when the fading continues, I can see rigpa is also the dualistic experience."

So, would you say that one recognizes that all experience is encompassed by rigpa to the extent that dualistic experience isn't manifesting?

"The fireworks (of relaxing into the natural state) are side effects, but are easily taken for it itself at first. "

A question for you (and orasis): what are the "fireworks"?