Descriptions of rigpa

EIS, I hope some of this is helping bring some clarity. It'll be interesting to see how this conversation unfolds further. One thing I want to share from my own experience (and it has already been brought up by others, but I think it's important): being asked for a description of what 'rigpa' the term points to is very ironic, because one of the salient features (to me) is that "out" of rigpa, descriptions are always being reified somewhat, while "in" rigpa, that isn't so. Descriptions are like waves arising on a wave in the ocean trying to describe the wave/ocean/wetness continuum, but that which is to be described can never fit into the description. It's different for sense objects or concepts or feelings, which could all be called indescribable from one point of view, but which can all be communicated about comparatively easily nonetheless. That said, my favored description would be the undivided wholeness of openness, clarity and vibrancy/energy which is the unconditioned is-ness of everything that is. When this is-ness is obscured, we're caught up in the eight winds of life and mind is conditioned by hope and fear. When is-ness is self-clearing then there is freedom beyond conditions which is completely intimate with all conditions. Of course, this is just more nonsense, but perhaps it will help as a pointer.

I rather like that pointer, Jake!

Glad you do I have an uber-geeky way of articulating the same point, perhaps End would be interested in it as it's an idiosyncratic-but-very-precise way of articulating it (and I know you can relate to idiosyncratic-but-very-precise descriptions, End ) If not on-thread, then by email or whatever (I don't want to derail this cool thread with an uber-geeky articulation of true nature).

Guys simply noticing that I am aware again and again over a the course of the afternoon/evening has lead to a shift in perspective that I seems to fit the descriptions and pointers.

I'm basically just noticing that awareness is present over and over and this leads to what could be described as consciousness seemingly experiencing itself. Noticing that there is no boundary to awareness and also tuning into how detailed things are also helped to deepen the shift. I get the sense of awareness seeing itself in manifestation form and seeing everything as pure and beautiful.

This is quite nice!

"Guys simply noticing that I am aware again and again over a the course of the afternoon/evening has lead to a shift in perspective that I seems to fit the descriptions and pointers.

I'm basically just noticing that awareness is present over and over and this leads to what could be described as consciousness seemingly experiencing itself. Noticing that there is no boundary to awareness and also tuning into how detailed things are also helped to deepen the shift. I get the sense of awareness seeing itself in manifestation form and seeing everything as pure and beautiful.

This is quite nice!"

I was just gonna say, this and your previous post IMO is a perfect way to switch to rigpa. It explains it way better than what I posted.

I also agree that one has to only acknowledge "I am aware" to shift. Nothing is left out and this would actually suggest that dualistic experience vanishes in rigpa. Maybe what I was trying to say in the beginning is that one can intuit rigpa. But the shift is a whole different issue.

"Guys simply noticing that I am aware again and again over a the course of the afternoon/evening has lead to a shift in perspective that I seems to fit the descriptions and pointers.

I'm basically just noticing that awareness is present over and over and this leads to what could be described as consciousness seemingly experiencing itself. Noticing that there is no boundary to awareness and also tuning into how detailed things are also helped to deepen the shift. I get the sense of awareness seeing itself in manifestation form and seeing everything as pure and beautiful.

This is quite nice!"

Yes, very nice, I meant to respond and say that what you were suggesting up thread could well be a helpful technique to point one in the right direction. I find it helpful to notice that "awareness" or sheer cognizance/basic knowing is implicit in every experience, whether that explicit experience is one filled with delight and freedom or one full of dualistic tension (suffering). By continually appreciating this the illusory nature of dualistic suffering becomes more apparent (i.e., not being conditioned by the dream) and arisings which seemed to be suffering begin to themselves display as more of the same openness, clarity and energy/sensations.

The more my practice develops the less difference it makes, existentially and practically, what sorts of things are happening within or around me, in terms of whether "I" am "suffering" or not. Everything starts to take on a quality of undefinable openness, nonduality of stillness/movement, no inner or outer.

"Maybe what I was trying to say in the beginning is that one can intuit rigpa. But the shift is a whole different issue."

Maybe we could say that while it's possible to recognize that awareness "is", it's also possible to recgonize this fact but to still be confused/deluded about awareness. That's why for some people the "just turn awareness back to itself" pointer isn't quite enough to really get it.

I think that in order to really grok what this is pointing to, there (sometimes) needs to be a pointer regarding the nature of appearances (expressions). Sometimes just pointing to one aspect leads to recognition of the whole enchilada, but it's no guarantee. Thankfully, there are lots of ways to point!

""Maybe what I was trying to say in the beginning is that one can intuit rigpa. But the shift is a whole different issue."

Maybe we could say that while it's possible to recognize that awareness "is", it's also possible to recgonize this fact but to still be confused/deluded about awareness. That's why for some people the "just turn awareness back to itself" pointer isn't quite enough to really get it.

I think that in order to really grok what this is pointing to, there (sometimes) needs to be a pointer regarding the nature of appearances (expressions). Sometimes just pointing to one aspect leads to recognition of the whole enchilada, but it's no guarantee. Thankfully, there are lots of ways to point!"

Yes, also, habit gets in the way. One could discern the whole enchilada and, due to habitual tendencies, lose it later.

"That's why for some people the 'just turn awareness back to itself' pointer isn't quite enough to really get it." This pointer was actually painful for me

"Yes, also, habit gets in the way. One could discern the whole enchilada and, due to habitual tendencies, lose it later.

"That's why for some people the 'just turn awareness back to itself' pointer isn't quite enough to really get it." This pointer was actually painful for me "

This pointer did nothing for me. I was always looking back to try and see awareness.

Simply noticing that I am aware means awareness is aware that it is aware. That did the trick.

APK: "Yes, also, habit gets in the way. One could discern the whole enchilada and, due to habitual tendencies, lose it later."

Good point!

Mu: "Simply noticing that I am aware means awareness is aware that it is aware. That did the trick."

Right on.

"Guys simply noticing that I am aware again and again over a the course of the afternoon/evening has lead to a shift in perspective that I seems to fit the descriptions and pointers.

I'm basically just noticing that awareness is present over and over and this leads to what could be described as consciousness seemingly experiencing itself. Noticing that there is no boundary to awareness and also tuning into how detailed things are also helped to deepen the shift. I get the sense of awareness seeing itself in manifestation form and seeing everything as pure and beautiful.

This is quite nice!"

The advice I have read is that at this point, try to recognize this awareness again and again over the next couple of days to create an imprint in your mind that you can carry with you and come back to in the future.

It is not so important to abide right now as it is to come back again and again. If you get lost, great! Another chance to recognize awareness! Its more like how many repetitions can you get in right away to train this new muscle.

My sources for these instructions are from Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche in person and reading Tosknyi Rinpoche, and their father, Tulku Urgyen. If anyone feels that I am misinterpretting/relaying this instructions, please correct me.

"Glad you do I have an uber-geeky way of articulating the same point, perhaps End would be interested in it as it's an idiosyncratic-but-very-precise way of articulating it (and I know you can relate to idiosyncratic-but-very-precise descriptions, End ) If not on-thread, then by email or whatever (I don't want to derail this cool thread with an uber-geeky articulation of true nature)."

I love uber-geekery. Send it my way.

I've removed a comment that suggested some comments, or posters, are not welcome here.

I like this particular slide show about the topic of this thread:

docs.google.com/present/view?id=0AdIyLjP...TM1ZjZmejhzY20&hl=en

It's good stuff!

"It is not so important to abide right now as it is to come back again and again. If you get lost, great! Another chance to recognize awareness! Its more like how many repetitions can you get in right away to train this new muscle."

Yes. And after a time the existence of stress and/or emotion will actually start to trigger the a return to non-dual awareness as opposed to a return to being stuck in the ignorance of the moment. It's some kind of self-reinforcing cycle.

Thanks a bunch guys. This has been huge for me

Yes, exactly: the very presence of disturbance and confusion can trigger recognition of the true nature of implicit awareness. This is actually what seems to have set off my first a&p: a moment of intense anger and frustration suddenly gave way to a flash of natural state sparkling through, followed immediately by the a&p fireworks. So it's even possible that this feedback loop can kick in before recognition, oddly enough (unless we go down the 'practice in former lifetimes' route to explain it...
whole 'nother thread, eh? But in some sense the natural state is always "prior" to any confusion and distress, since confusion and distress depend on awareness being already present, so in a sense we all have a "history" of liberated awareness preceding all delusion and suffering. In Zen they talk of "buddha ancestors", in ancient Tibet the natural state was sometimes referred to as the "great ancestor". Metaphors, but good pointers).

wow, man, that slide show is great! thanks for linking that!

From the descriptions that have been given, here is my attempt at describing an experience that *may be* what y'all are talking about. I am going to use somewhat idiosyncratic language (I know very little about Tibetan Buddhism), so please bear with me.

***

Distinguish three components of experience: 1) pure nondual experience, beyond concepts, 2) dualistic thinking and conceptualizing, 3) dualistic fixation, the tendency of the mind to pay attention to and generate dualistic thinking and conceptualizing rather than effortlessly notice pure nondual experience.

Dualistic thinking and conceptualizing is a mesh of thoughts and viewpoints and schemes of organization and ordering that divide one's experience up into pieces: "These are separate, these are together, that is over there, those are two separate senses, my body is here, that is not my body, I like this, I don't like that..."

Nondual experience is not describable in any normal way, but can be described by picking out words that generate dualistic thinking and conceptualizing which is suggestive of it: "brightness", "clarity", "peace", "stillness", "freshness", "unconditioned", "perfection", "suchness", etc.

Nondual experience can also be described by talking about the ways which experience would be, were dualistic thinking and conceptualizing not there: "boundless", "unitary", "centerless", "borderless", "free of concepts", etc.

(cont)

The easiest way for me to apprehend nondual awareness is to stop trying to do anything, including trying to stop trying to do anything.

***

I would guess that rigpa = nondual awareness, and the apprehension of rigpa = ending dualistic fixation (temporarily or permanently).

If true, this suggests two complimentary practice strategies: either finesse your way around dualistic fixation, or chip away at dualistic thinking and conceptualizing until rigpa peeks out from underneath.

One who finesses their way around dualistic fixation will find dualistic thinking and conceptualizing unimportant (although it continues to exist for them during the apprehension of rigpa), while one who chips away at dualistic thinking and conceptualizing will find this lack of concern hard to comprehend.

Here is how I relate my description above to what others have said (to help you triangulate what I'm talking about a bit better, perhaps):

As Kenneth has said, the apprehension of rigpa is not the same as a PCE. In a PCE, dualistic thinking and conceptualizing ends. In the apprehension of rigpa, dualistic thinking and conceptualizing may continue, because dualistic fixation ends.

Alex has claimed that one can't help but apprehend rigpa in a PCE, and this would be true, as rigpa becomes clear when there is no dualistic thinking and conceptualizing.

Rigpa is always the same, and the apprehension of rigpa is always the same in one way (that dualistic fixation ends, revealing rigpa) but can differ in another way (that dualistic thinking and conceptualizing can be co-occurent to different degrees and in different ways). Intuitively, the apprehension is more likely to be thought of as always the same because rigpa is always the same.

(cont)

Nondual experience is nothing other than what is happening now. It is not a rarefied state of consciousness. It is quite mundane (in the sense that mundane experiences are perfect examples of it). However, the mind's dualistic fixation biases it towards looking at dualistic thoughts and conceptualizing, so it is not even able to see the nondual experience that is happening, or worse, mistakes dualistic thinking and conceptualizing for nondual experience.

I personally like the word "unsorted" to describe nondual experience. In nondual experience, every moment is exactly what it is, and there is no conceptualization going on to fit it into a mental model of any kind. All the senses are merged together (not by way of getting mixed up, but by lacking any sort of conceptual division between them). There is no "I" or "other". There is no "this" or "that". Just awareness dancing away...

What is interesting about nondual awareness is that, since it's always happening, no amount of dualistic thinking and conceptualizing ever truly obscures it, nor can nondual experience be thus stained. However, one can be oblivious to nondual experience due to dualistic fixation (the tendency to look at dualistic thinking and conceptualizing).

When nondual experience becomes clear, it seems obvious that nondual experience is always what it is, always exactly the same (in the ultimate sense, though the details vary), unstained and pure, despite whatever dualistic thinking and conceptualizing is going on. However, when dualistic fixation is strong (especially in context of an overabundance of dualistic thinking and conceptualizing), it will seem *from the perspective of one mesmerized by dualistic fixation* that nondual experience comes and goes, that the mind can be stained, etc.

(cont)

Kenneth mentioned to me in person that the apprehension of rigpa differs from direct mode in that, in direct mode, the body is extremely prominent, whereas in rigpa, it is everything else that is prominent. This matches my experience. In direct mode, the burden of dualistic thinking and conceptualizing is "grounded" as tension in the body, which makes the body quite prominent. In the apprehension of rigpa, without dualistic fixation, the mind does not give excessive weight to dualistic thinking and conceptualizing, so the body is not unduly prominent, as, even if dualistic thinking and conceptualizing is felt as tension in the body, that tension is not focused on as it is normally.

Concerning direct mode, I find it quite possible to apprehend rigpa in it, but there is a caveat: some experiences of direct mode are "heavy" and some are "light". In my practice journal from many months ago, I described direct mode experiences that I thought corresponded with Kenneth's stage 6 as having a strong sense of the body and a strong sense of being in it, whereas I described experiences that I thought corresponded with Kenneth's stage 7 as de-emphasizing the body. The former is heavy and the latter is comparatively light. However, there is an even lighter way to approach direct mode which de-emphasizes the body even further. My current experience is well characterized as "direct mode without trying", and, when one isn't trying (a light touch / no touch), it becomes possible to apprehend rigpa even while having a direct mode experience. (My impression, and my past experience, was that direct mode typically requires some kind of mental effort and upkeep, however slight, to continue, and this interferes with the apprehension.)

***

(cont)

So, I have made an attempt to describe some things I have experienced, and explained them on the basis of that experience. (Apologies for any theory; I thought it would be helpful in terms of clarifying my description.) What I'd like to hear is whether my description sounds similar to your experiences. But, I'd especially like to hear whether my description sounds *different*. Please ask any questions for clarification. I would prefer on the basis of clear reasoning to hear that I am talking about something different, rather than to be told that I am talking about the same thing, and yet still not be sure that I am.

The main place that may indicate differences between what I would call the apprehension of rigpa (via finessing one's way around dualistic fixation) and what others are talking about, is what I have written about the possibility of the co-existence of dualistic thinking and conceptualizing with the apprehension of nondual experience. I got the impression that APrioriKreuz thinks that something like that is possible, but am not sure. I am not sure what others think. From my perspective, it seems to explain the insistence that the apprehension of rigpa goes beyond dualistic thinking and conceptualizing, without having to remove it.

Let me know what you think!

"
I like this particular slide show about the topic of this thread:

docs.google.com/present/view?id=0AdIyLjP...TM1ZjZmejhzY20&hl=en

It's good stuff!

"

Wow. Really nice.

To tie up a loose thread with respect to what I've just written...many posters have emphasized that rigpa must be seen to be understood, and is unmistakeable. I would say that nondual experience, however one apprehends, it, is *the* thing to see, and cannot be explained in any normal way (as the explanation would be understood via dualistic thinking and conceptualizing, which misses the point).