I smoke pot, and I have some questions. (I think I want to quit)

In Buddhism, the Fifth Precept is to "abstain from wines, liquors and intoxicants that cause heedlessness." Most interpretations of the Fifth Precept would therefore include all forms of cannabis among the intoxicants that a Buddhist should abstain from consuming. However, the Precepts are guidelines whose purpose is to encourage a moral lifestyle rather than being strict religious commandments, and some lay practitioners of Buddhism may choose to make use of cannabis as a natural exaltator reasonably. Cannabis and some other psychoactive plants are specifically prescribed in the Mahākāla Tantra for medicinal purposes. However, Tantra is an esoteric teaching of Hinduism and Buddhism not generally accepted by most other forms of these religions.

"In Buddhism, the Fifth Precept is to "abstain from wines, liquors and intoxicants that cause heedlessness." Most interpretations of the Fifth Precept would therefore include all forms of cannabis among the intoxicants that a Buddhist should abstain from consuming. However, the Precepts are guidelines whose purpose is to encourage a moral lifestyle rather than being strict religious commandments, and some lay practitioners of Buddhism may choose to make use of cannabis as a natural exaltator reasonably. Cannabis and some other psychoactive plants are specifically prescribed in the Mahākāla Tantra for medicinal purposes. However, Tantra is an esoteric teaching of Hinduism and Buddhism not generally accepted by most other forms of these religions."

My point in this posting is to find your own path and never listen to religious dogma. It's a way to control and cause fear. Make your choice, make it responsibly, develop some morals, and enjoy life to the fullest.

I think the key here is to look hard at your intentions as well as the effects of your actions. If you can honestly say that you could give up weed and it wouldn't be a big deal, that you really can take it or leave it, that's cool. However, if you're using it as an escape all the time to get away from unpleasant sensations, existential dread and the like, then it's a different story.

If I let myself smoke and drink each time the desire to do so came up--it comes up a lot--my life and practice would unravel pretty quickly. I'd gain back the 45 pounds I've lost, be unable to practice and generally make a mess of things. I would also be setting this terrible example for my kids, who would learn that excessive and regular consumption of alcohol was how their dad chose to live.

So for me, this kind of stuff is a battle. I'd love to drink and smoke every weekend, to be honest, but what I have to do is arrest that process by trying to watch dependent origination in action. You can really see how the whole chain of events starts. Some memory of a good time you had when you were drunk and stoned pops into your head; that seems better than what's going on in the moment; the craving kicks in; you start imagining how nice it would be...

Speaking for myself, I face a challenge here. I want to be able to note every part of this process and dis-identify from it so that it's no longer controlling me or pushing me into unskillful directions. Maybe now and again I loosen up and indulge, hang out with friends or my wife at a bar and so forth, but on a day-to-day basis, for me, the use of intoxicants amounts to a big threat and problem. Again, though, this might not be the case at all for you.

Before I say anything I have to consider that the stuff I smoked "back in the day" packs a lot less punch that what people smoke these days. And people have a lot more choices of varieties and strains, starting with indica vs sativa and branching out far and wide.So I don't claim much expertise here. I smoked pot a few times in recent years and the potency of it scares me and makes me back off a little from my 100% pro-legalization stance.

I used to think of weed as medicine, good for occasional use to think and perceive in new or different ways. Now I think of it as "trickster medicine" as in the style of Coyote, the trickster/teacher of American Indian mythology. Sure it can teach me and guide me with wonderful insights and feelings, but it can also trick me. Big time.
Beware!

Be aware. For me, a subtle trick came hand in glove with the pleasure and the guidance. If you see the trick, you won't get fooled by it.

Technically you can note/be aware of the present moment during any mind state and through all phenomena: bored, tired, restless, hungry, sore knees, hanging upside down from a tree branch, at the dentist, high, jogging, eating, drunk, noise all around, on a plane, having sex, whatever... practice is not ultimately dependent on sitting quietly on a cushion.

But as jgroove pointed out, some activities can be heavily driven by attachment/aversion to certain categories of experience - such as avoiding unpleasant sensations or clinging to pleasant sensations, and it's very productive to be aware of that. Whether it's the bliss of altered states (including ecstatic experiences that arise spontaneously during meditation!) or the aversion to tension/pain (again including the spontaneous states arising in meditation), all of this is great food for practice.

The notion of trickster medicine seems very apt.

It is possible to practice high, technically, but I found smoking pot seemed to prevent me from having access to the nanas for several days after. Also, sitting meditation during the days following a smoke made me realize the lingering effects were stronger than I realized. I'm not anti-weed. But that is my experience.

My theory of hallucinogens being connected to A+P applies to pot, too, though in a different way. The pot just makes you want to explore and sense more, which can lead to insight. But then it can bog you down in the dark night for years or a lifetime, imho. (I was a daily smoker, off and on, for years.)

I wonder how it worked out for the OP.

Hey Zen, you know deep down that it is time to put it aside. Not to make too light of it, but reading this thread I was reminded of the last scene in Half-Baked where Thurgood has the "break-up" talk with a joint. It is ridiculous but it has some truth to it. Breaking up is damn hard to do.

As a psychology geek here, I'd be remiss if I didn't chime in about suddenly stopping after daily use. It was once thought that there were no withdrawal symptoms, but a lot of research in the past decade has shown that for people who use everyday there is a pretty significant withdrawal, complete with irritability (you just hate everybody), depression, insomnia and appetite disturbance. The good news is that it usually is not that severe and after the first 1 week (2 in some cases) the brain rebalances the neurotransmitters (that's the theory anyway). You go back to baseline and feel fine and clear-headed.

I say all this not to scare you off from it but to give you open eyes going into it. If you expect to be grouchy and down, and know to wait it out, you'll likely see it through.

And yes, it does impact the meditation IMHO. Especially daily use. It's better to put is aside at least while you are trying to do the work of insight.

"The notion of trickster medicine seems very apt.

It is possible to practice high, technically, but I found smoking pot seemed to prevent me from having access to the nanas for several days after. Also, sitting meditation during the days following a smoke made me realize the lingering effects were stronger than I realized. I'm not anti-weed. But that is my experience.

My theory of hallucinogens being connected to A+P applies to pot, too, though in a different way. The pot just makes you want to explore and sense more, which can lead to insight. But then it can bog you down in the dark night for years or a lifetime, imho. (I was a daily smoker, off and on, for years.)

I wonder how it worked out for the OP."

Someguy, thank you for your reply! I too agree that pot is a trickster medicine. It seems innocent at first, but as time passes, I'm viewing it as a more and more insidious entity. I have not gone more than two days without pot in the last 3 or so years. To be quite frank, the idea of coming home and NOT lighting up is terrifying to me. I have only a vague inclining as to why this is so. Can you tell me your theory on hallucinogens and the A+P? And this might not be the place for this type of question, but how does one know for sure if one is in the dark night? I feel like I might be immersed within in. I have no motivation to do much of anything (including meditation), I am depressed, anxious, sad, and generally unhappy. I have not had a good belly laugh in ages.

"Hey Zen, you know deep down that it is time to put it aside. Not to make too light of it, but reading this thread I was reminded of the last scene in Half-Baked where Thurgood has the "break-up" talk with a joint. It is ridiculous but it has some truth to it. Breaking up is damn hard to do.

As a psychology geek here, I'd be remiss if I didn't chime in about suddenly stopping after daily use. It was once thought that there were no withdrawal symptoms, but a lot of research in the past decade has shown that for people who use everyday there is a pretty significant withdrawal, complete with irritability (you just hate everybody), depression, insomnia and appetite disturbance. The good news is that it usually is not that severe and after the first 1 week (2 in some cases) the brain rebalances the neurotransmitters (that's the theory anyway). You go back to baseline and feel fine and clear-headed.

I say all this not to scare you off from it but to give you open eyes going into it. If you expect to be grouchy and down, and know to wait it out, you'll likely see it through.

And yes, it does impact the meditation IMHO. Especially daily use. It's better to put is aside at least while you are trying to do the work of insight.

"

Thank you for your honesty, it's refreshing. I do know it's time to put it aside, but cannot bring myself to let go. I'm so scared. I beat myself up at times for feeling this way, "it's just pot, stop being so weak." That break-up talk Thurgood had with his little friend is something that would be akin to breaking up with my girlfriend...it would be heart-breaking. I know it must be done, but as I said in my above post: I have no motivation to do anything, least of all put myself through more pain and trying something so new. I know about the withdrawal symptoms, or at least my withdrawal symptoms. They suck! I don't know where to begin. Any tips?

To all those I didn't specifically quote: thank you for your replies as well! I had no idea this thread would become this popular...and while I do not post in it too often, your advice and wisdom is touching. Thank you from the bottom of my heart. This isn't "just pot" for me.

Metta to you, ZenSage.
As I see it, what you're dealing with is no different than what we're all dealing with--craving for experience.
I've had a couple of years of relative freedom from craving for alcohol and weed, but on some level it's like I just switched the craving around. I traded it for craving for stream entry and exalted meditative attainment. Now that I've given up on that a bit, I find that the craving for substances has returned. But think of all of the other stuff we crave, including our own stories. Anyway, seems like you should take full advantage of all of the resources out there that are specifically designed to help kick the habit. Best of luck...

The best meditative method I have found for dealing with craving is Bante Vimalaramsi's anapanasatti method.

There's a good bit of info on it online - here's a youtube video (2 parts):

If you can accept that it's going to be tough, you can do it. If you think it's either easy or impossible, it will be probably be impossible.

It's good not to underestimate it and to get a posse of people who can help you out during the turbulance (not necessarily professionals, a good group of friends or online support can help!).

Zensage,

It's not really my theory. Ingram mentions it in MCTB and it's an idea that's been around a while. Have you read it?

"Zensage,

It's not really my theory. Ingram mentions it in MCTB and it's an idea that's been around a while. Have you read it?"

No, I'm not familiar with the idea. Haven't read it! Could you direct me to it via link or something? I feel like I should know what MCTB stands for, but it is currently eluding me. Thanks!

"I feel like I should know what MCTB stands for, but it is currently eluding me."


MCTB stands for Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha. You can find out all about it and more here: www.interactivebuddha.com/mctb.shtml .

Do you meditate? You don't have to quit before you start practicing. You could start with simply observing those feelings of craving and fear between coming home and lighting up. No need to connect it to an obligation to end by smoking or not for now. Just let in a little light. 10 minutes, 20 minutes. Sooner or later you'll start to find the rigorous honesty of contemplative investigation more compelling than the drug. Why not start now?

And, yeah. Read that book. It'll put all this in context.

"Do you meditate? You don't have to quit before you start practicing. You could start with simply observing those feelings of craving and fear between coming home and lighting up. No need to connect it to an obligation to end by smoking or not for now. Just let in a little light. 10 minutes, 20 minutes. Sooner or later you'll start to find the rigorous honesty of contemplative investigation more compelling than the drug. Why not start now?

And, yeah. Read that book. It'll put all this in context."

It's funny you ask. I don't. I cannot bring myself to sit while stoned, I don't want to mess with the sanctity of meditating. That is what I tell myself, anyway. I feel it is an excuse. Hahah. Your suggestion is compelling. Could you get a little more in depth for me? Essentially, get home and before toking observe my feelings surrounding it?

"Essentially, get home and before toking observe my feelings surrounding it?"

Yep, those feelings and whatever else there is to observe. It's better to approach it without an agenda. You can learn the noting technique from Kenneth's writings on this website. It makes the task a lot easier.

"Yep, those feelings and whatever else there is to observe. It's better to approach it without an agenda. You can learn the noting technique from Kenneth's writings on this website. It makes the task a lot easier. "

Isn't noting related to insight? It was my understanding (and I could very well be wrong) that one did concentration training first, until access concentration was reached, and then move onto insight. Having virtually zero experience with meditation, would noting me a little too advanced for me? Or is noting just something to occupy the mind while sitting, to help focus it? Like counting the breaths?

It's not necessary to practice concentration alone first. Noting will get you concentrated too. Nothing is required to note. You can do it now.

Don't let your weed habit preclude a meditation practice. When I started meditating, I had been a daily pot smoker for several years and pretty much continued to be until at least stream entry. My relationship with weed has changed as my practice grew. At this point, I don't enjoy it much so I rarely partake.

So, practice.

"It's not necessary to practice concentration alone first. Noting will get you concentrated too. Nothing is required to note. You can do it now.

Don't let your weed habit preclude a meditation practice. When I started meditating, I had been a daily pot smoker for several years and pretty much continued to be until at least stream entry. My relationship with weed has changed as my practice grew. At this point, I don't enjoy it much so I rarely partake.

So, practice. "

Noted! (Get it? Hahah )

Thank you, Nada. A question for you: I've read a bit around this site, and have seen I think two different noting methods. Which method do you suggest? Regular noting of sensations? Or the listening for the boats in the harbor noting?

What's this 3 gear transmission thing I am reading on the front page? I am confused, it doesn't seem to "fit" in with anything else here. Help?

Just completed my first formal sitting in a while. I'm not going to say it went well or not, it just sort of was. Scattered. I kept concentration on my breathing and noting for the most part, thought it was wavering. My attention almost felt like what heat looks like rising off the hot asphalt. Thank you everyone.

You can probably keep it nice and simple, like you seem to have, just noting the breath and any other significant sensations that come and go. Your attention/concentration will get better with practice. Better to do a short effort every day than to worry about doing it perfectly or for a long time, etc. and then avoiding trying. Whatever you notice is perfectly fine. It's not meant to be a bliss or relaxation thing, just an observation of the mind at work, all the things that happen to be happening, as if you are curiously watching wildlife on the Serengeti...

I think you'll be pleasantly surprised at the beneficial effect this practice has in just a few months. It did me a world of good.