"Students of Daniel Ingram" perceived as having "dangerous" practice

It seems reasonable at this point to caution folks about demonizing "other." Are we aware of doing that when we do it, and what effect does that have on our actions?

Just to add some grist to the mill.

And are you aware that you are now doing the same thing that teacher at IMS did to me, Chris?

I don't get the impression Chris's admonition was aimed at you, Jim. It could just as easily have been "aimed" at me since I wrote the previous post. But in truth, it doesn't seem to me that it was aimed at anyone, it's just something we should all keep in mind.

Sometimes I've had an "us vs. them" attitude toward other practitioners, especially those who don't see things my way. I got into a quasi-brawl (of words) with someone about it last summer. I've also gotten myself into a bit of drama from time to time over pragmatic dharma vs. IMS and who is right and who is dangerous and whom should I choose, and whatnot, and the truth is Daniel/Kenneth's "students" (people who are attracted to noting, maps, and such) can conceivably get unbalanced, which is dangerous, and students of the so-called IMS approach (non goal-oriented, map-averse) can get caught in Dark Night and/or spin around getting nowhere for years, which is also dangerous.

I have been tempted to be evangelical about this practice, and I also have looked way down my nose at other people, most recently with some of my fellow-sangha members this morning ("they haven't progressed the way I have--nyah, nyah!"), which is just the mind doing its silly, habituated thing.

BTW, congratulations many times over on making path! Please kick back a bit and enjoy it. I am looking forward to getting there myself sometime soon.

Laurel, I didn't think the post was aimed at me. But then, that teacher's criticisms weren't aimed at me, either.

The remark seems to be addressing a problem which doesn't exist and which doesn't seem threatening to exist, either. Everyone here - yourself included - has been empathetic toward the IMS approach. You: "Live and let live." kacchapa: "thinking about my formative IMS experiences and some very positive experiences at "mainstream" vipassana retreats". AndyW45: "I'm always grateful for this community, for the work of Kenneth, Beth, Daniel and others, but it's useful to be reminded precisely why it's so valuable." Me: Leaving a long post with my considered opinions that Kenneth asked me to post here.

I can't see anything to criticize or caution here in terms of intention or tone -- and yet.

It does seem an awful lot like how that teacher was acting, and in my opinion, it's not constructive

"BTW, congratulations many times over on making path! Please kick back a bit and enjoy it. I am looking forward to getting there myself sometime soon."

And thank you so much! I'm thinking of you and wishing you a speedy second path, so that you, too, can march into your teacher's room and say, "Sakadagami, motherf$%ker!"

"And thank you so much! I'm thinking of you and wishing you a speedy second path, so that you, too, can march into your teacher's room and say, "Sakadagami, motherf$%ker!" "

Actually, my fantasies are about saying that to all my departmental colleagues, who consistently fail to appreciate that the sun really does shine out my @$.

Nisargadatta said often that teachers teach what they were taught. They may reject valid paths simply because they were taught differently.

Another way to view this: who cares what an IMS teacher thinks of Dan Ingram and his students? Care about how your experience is evolving. Do you feel like your life is getting better? Then good enough and keep going.

"Nisargadatta said often that teachers teach what they were taught. They may reject valid paths simply because they were taught differently.

Another way to view this: who cares what an IMS teacher thinks of Dan Ingram and his students? Care about how your experience is evolving. Do you feel like your life is getting better? Then good enough and keep going. "

Even teachers within the 'pragmatic dharma' context do the same thing. Happier? Keep doing it. Worse off? Re-asses why it is so. Nice points, Rob.

"And are you aware that you are now doing the same thing that teacher at IMS did to me, Chris?"

You seem to be personalizing this and I meant absolutely nothing personal or threatening, wasn't even thinking of your recent experience and was thinking really about all the "mushroom culture" comments that tend to come up here frequently. I'll take the discussion elsewhere.

"Actually, my fantasies are about saying that to all my departmental colleagues, who consistently fail to appreciate that the sun really does shine out my @$. "

"
"And are you aware that you are now doing the same thing that teacher at IMS did to me, Chris?"

You seem to be personalizing this and I meant absolutely nothing personal or threatening, wasn't even thinking of your recent experience and was thinking really about all the "mushroom culture" comments that tend to come up here frequently. I'll take the discussion elsewhere.

"

Hi Chris,

I just wanted to point this out as I think it is important to consider. All people here (including myself) have at some time or other (mis) perceived what has been written as some 'threat' or such situations have led to the reader 'personalizing' the discussion due to some (mis) perceived attack or (mis) perceived lecturing, or (mis) perceived one-up-man-ship. This is important to consider for both the person (mis) perceiving such things and the person communicating. I also consider myself within this context and highly recommend becoming aware of such (mis) perceptions as it can really aid in one's practice of seeing how we create our own realities and reactions to said fabricated realties, pleasant or unpleasant. It can also help in refining one's way of communicating. This situation can also be significant for any situation, including hearing how an IMS teacher criticizes one's own practice context.

Nick

"You seem to be personalizing this and I meant absolutely nothing personal or threatening"

No, as I said above, I didn't think it was directed to me. It just seemed passive-aggressive and from out of left field - much like that teacher's remarks - and I thought I'd point that out. You mentioned a few messages back that you often do things like that teacher does, so I thought you'd be receptive. Guess not. Carry on.

Really?

Last year, I went to sit a weeklong retreat at IMS. I wasn't involved in teaching, I just went as a yogi. Shortly after arrival, while waiting in the registration line, I was approached by a member of a local sitting group who asked if I would speak to their sangha. This was someone I knew by reputation, a long-time member of the meditation community centered around IMS. I thanked him for asking, saying that it was an honor to be asked, but explained that I was about to go into silence for a retreat of my own and maybe we could do it another time. The man said he understood and we agreed to contact each other later to set it up. But a few minutes later, as I was about to go upstairs to settle into my room, I saw the man again and he volunteered to help carry my luggage upstairs, an offer I gladly accepted. As we were walking and talking, he said that he and his group were excited about pragmatic dharma and asked once again if I might be willing to take a few hours off from my own retreat to speak to them. This time, caught up in his enthusiasm, I agreed, feeling a bit guilty about violating the IMS rules in this way. (Retreat participants are asked to honor the silence and not skip out for errands or appointments during the retreat.) In addition, I had been looking forward to my own retreat and was reluctant to break the momentum that I knew would be taking hold in the first few days of silence. Still, I was touched by the man's sincerity and eager to share pragmatic dharma with his group.

cont...

A couple of days later, I sneaked out of the retreat center at IMS, met another of the conspirators, a woman who works on staff there, and together we walked over to the nearby Forest Refuge, which is part of the IMS complex.

We met in the staff dining room at the Forest Refuge. I talked about pragmatic dharma, the mushroom culture, and the possibility of making real progress. I taught everyone social noting (noting aloud in groups and dyads, and Mahamudra noting.) There were a small handful of people there, including Brown University researcher Willoughby Britton, who happened to be in town and whom I had met before while leading a workshop and getting my brain scanned at Yale. We all had a great talk and lots of fun meditating together. Some of the people there expressed their frustration at not having been given enough information by their IMS teachers even after having being part of that community for years.

Change is coming, even to IMS.

In the time I've been a member of this forum I cannot recall a single post in which Chris has been either passive or aggressive. He is direct and seldom uses three words when one will do. I, for one, appreciate that. I think he was just reminding us that we might be veering into an "us versus them" mentality and that that approach is, ultimately, unskillful and fruitless.

" I think he was just reminding us that we might be veering into an "us versus them" mentality and that that approach is, ultimately, unskillful and fruitless. "

I third this cry to not veer into an "us versus them" scenario and mentality, and would add that it entail not just outside the 'pragmatic dharma' context but from within it as well.

"In the time I've been a member of this forum I cannot recall a single post in which Chris has been either passive or aggressive. He is direct and seldom uses three words when one will do. I, for one, appreciate that." -AlvaroMDF

Thank you for saying that, Alvaro. I agree. Chris does an outstanding job in a difficult and often thankless role, that of lead moderator. He is the one who keeps this forum running smoothly, and I feel extremely grateful for that.

Absolutely spot on nik! I applaud all you guys who have the instincts to put the breaks on.

I am probably the least enlightened person at kfd, but one thing I can say with confidence is that I have absolutely no time for dharma feuds (internal or external). As soon as I see one brewing I head the other way at 10000000 miles an hour, and in doing so I potentially miss out on great the teachings that both camps might have to offer. People who are already arhats might have time and energy to spare to feud, but I sure dont. I can say firsthand that encountering dharma feuds puts a bad taste in the mouths of the hungry people who need the teachings the most.

"I can say firsthand that encountering dharma feuds puts a bad taste in the mouths of the hungry people who need the teachings the most." -MVW

Mark, how would you describe the difference between feuding and disagreeing? This seems important because nobody likes a feud, but pretending to agree when we don't would also be inadvisable. What are the red flags that a good, healthy disagreement is devolving into a feud?

"Absolutely spot on nik! I applaud all you guys who have the instincts to put the breaks on.

I am probably the least enlightened person at kfd, but one thing I can say with confidence is that I have absolutely no time for dharma feuds (internal or external). As soon as I see one brewing I head the other way at 10000000 miles an hour, and in doing so I potentially miss out on great the teachings that both camps might have to offer. People who are already arhats might have time and energy to spare to feud, but I sure dont. I can say firsthand that encountering dharma feuds puts a bad taste in the mouths of the hungry people who need the teachings the most."

I'd say feuds are when disagreements get personalized and carry with them some past baggage of some sort influencing the interactions and what is communicated and how.

But I really am only posting as I wish to deny being at any 'arahat' stage as perhaps implied in Mark's above post.

Nick

"But I really am only posting as I wish to deny being at any 'arahat' stage as perhaps implied in Mark's above post. "

In either case, it means more to me that you are on my list of friends than on my list of arahats.

Within tibetan buddhism, there seems to be a perception that insight practice without prior training of shamatha abilities and probably also moral training is dangerous, perhaps very dangerous. The teacher (Erik Pema Kunsang) at a recent retreat warned directly against this and against "premature enlightenment" (no idea, i should have asked). I have also talked to people within tibetan buddhism, who never heard about such a thing, and considered it very dangerous.
Edit: Not directly related to subject, but thought i'd mention it

Thank you for sharing the IMS update, Kenneth. I think it's a great physical location for a retreat, so it's good to know what's currently going on there. Recently I did a week retreat locally and met with a teacher once. We had a nice conversation, but I talked with Chris by phone about my actual practice. That worked great. It was very helpful to talk with Chris in a retreat context.

There's a feud? I'm open to helpful criticism from all corners. Nick, Jim, I'm listening and processing.