"Students of Daniel Ingram" perceived as having "dangerous" practice

Regarding mushroom culture, Chris has a point. It seems harmless among friends or in an inspiring book, but when talking with people we might want to be cordial with, telling them they are either serving or being served **** might be seen as aggressive.

At the risk of being disliked I feel the need to raise a point from a different perspective.
In the past, conversations here have been ended because they do not fit into the philosophy of 'Kenneth Folk' dharma. AF was seen as dangerous, rightly or wrongly. This is well within the rights of the administrators of this site, they have a brand to maintain.
Yet when something similar(not the same) happens elsewhere, it's a big deal. IMS has the right to determine what is taught, and how. Perhaps the individual teacher did a poor job, which is unfortunate. Still it seems incredibly arrogant to to see their behavior as inappropriate when the same thing happens here.
As far as Kenneth going to an IMS retreat and giving teachings, the level of disrespect in that action blows my mind. If you had agreed to talk after the retreat fine, but I feel that what you did Kenneth was well over the line, especially being a teacher yourself. Switch roles for a moment, how would you react to someone coming to a retreat you were holding and sneaking off to give contrary teachings?
Are you so sure your way is best that you've abandoned common courtesy?
Feel free to commence the attacks.

How about instead of debating better or worse we simply treat these different methods as experiments. Let the AF, IMS, and KFD people each do their own thing and see how the results unfold.

I think that if Kenneth had stood up during the question period following a dharma talk and proceeded to lecture people about pragmatic dharma, you'd have a point. If he'd gotten evangelical about the practice during a group meeting, then you'd have a point. He did neither of those things; someone approached him, and they left the retreat to talk. If someone on KFD approached another yogi in a personal message and asked that individual to reply to him or her about AF, and the person did so, even using the KFD message system, there'd be no foul either.

In short, this dog won't run.

"As far as Kenneth going to an IMS retreat and giving teachings, the level of disrespect in that action blows my mind... I feel that what you did Kenneth was well over the line, especially being a teacher yourself. Switch roles for a moment, how would you react to someone coming to a retreat you were holding and sneaking off to give contrary teachings?
Are you so sure your way is best that you've abandoned common courtesy?
Feel free to commence the attacks.
"

No attacks coming B.Rice, just disagreements. This wasn't over the line. Yes he broke the rules of the retreat, but in the scheme of things, were others at the retreat harmed? It seems to me that they saw a golden opportunity to break with the mushroom culture and seized it - good for them!
Communities like this were born out of a desire to acknowledge the mushroom culture for what it is and reduce its influence in our lives. It would be a shame if we lost touch with the spirit Kenneth showed when he taught others the maps on that retreat so that we could follow its rules or "make nice."

To me it just shows an enormous amount of disrespect to go to a retreat and teach your own take on things. It is irrelevant whether Kenneth is correct,or not. Or whether he was approached by other participants, or not. He could have met with those interested after the retreat ended. Again, to me it is just Very Disrespectful behavior, especially from an experienced teacher.
In the 'grand scheme of things' I doubt anyone was harmed, but again, how would you feel if someone came to your retreat and did the same thing? How did undermining the teachings during a silent retreat help the students? How were they helped more then a meeting after the retreat could have done. Perhaps I'm just old fashioned, but it sees like a bad example for a teacher to behave that way at someone else's retreat.

I do understand your reaction. But I wonder about the context of the retreat itself - was he really undermining what was being taught? I don't think we can know unless we were in that context.

However, my initial gut reaction isn't to empathize with the teachers on the retreat but with the students. I really feel for those students who reached out to him. As apperception's story illustrates, the mushroom effect that Kenneth himself experienced during his early IMS retreat is still very real and still leaving people in the dark. Kudos to them for taking steps to jump out of that and challenge the status quo!

"I was approached by a member of a local sitting group who asked if I would speak to their sangha." -Kenneth

Were the people Kenneth spoke to on the retreat themselves? It didn't sound like it to me, in which case he was 'undermining' nothing but his own retreat time and the IMS rules.

A Few Rules For Retreats:

Rule #1. Always follow the rules of the retreat.
Rule #2. Never break rule #1 unless wisdom and compassion guides you to do otherwise.
Rule #3. If you break the rules take responsibility for the consequences.

IMO, what Kenneth and the other yogis did at IMS was the epitome of skillful action. Maybe there will come a time when yogis won't need not to sneak off to learn the methods of open, pragmatic dharma. Until then I won't judge them for breaking a few rules in search of wisdom. In fact, I wish I'd been there. Besides where would the dharma be without the awakened renegades constantly pushing the envelope?

"Were the people Kenneth spoke to on the retreat themselves?" -nadavspi

Good point, Nadav; thanks for asking for clarification. In the case I mentioned above, none of the people I spoke to were on retreat. They were members of the local sitting group or visiting from out of town.

Had they been on retreat themselves, it would have been a different question. Would I have done it anyway? Maybe. This has also happened, when I was sitting a retreat and another participant asked me for a private interview. I'm thinking of three times in particular. In two cases, we asked and received permission from the retreat teachers, and in one case (during a self-retreat at the forest refuge), we did not, even though it was clearly a violation of the rules.

So far, I've been talking about in-person meetings. But there have also been a number of times when I've talked to people on the phone or Skype while they were on retreat or on staff at retreat centers. In each of these cases, it was against the rules, and in none of these cases did we seek permission (knowing that we wouldn't get it!). At least twice, I have had regular (Once, twice, or three times a week) interviews, arranged in advance, with people who were on long-term retreat at the Forest Refuge, without permission from teachers or admin.

In any case, it's true that I am a serial rule-breaker in situations where communication is banned.

Kenneth,

honestly, you don't need to defend and justify yourself here. You were clearly not intending to disrespect anyone, nor does it appear anyone felt disrespected. You made a reasonable decision that one member of this discussion group thinks you should have made differently. Nothing more than that it seems...

"Kenneth, honestly, you don't need to defend and justify yourself here. You were clearly not intending to disrespect anyone, nor does it appear anyone felt disrespected. You made a reasonable decision that one member of this discussion group thinks you should have made differently." -Robwynge

Thanks, Rob, but I wasn't feeling defensive when I wrote post 84. Just matter-of-fact.

I know that not everyone will agree with everything I do and I like the fact that members feel feel safe enough to voice their disagreement here on the forum.

"In the time I've been a member of this forum I cannot recall a single post in which Chris has been either passive or aggressive. He is direct and seldom uses three words when one will do. I, for one, appreciate that. I think he was just reminding us that we might be veering into an "us versus them" mentality and that that approach is, ultimately, unskillful and fruitless. "

Never passive-aggressive? Not even once? That's an impressive feat for a human being.

I really don't know where else to go with the conversation from here. I'll just say I was pointing out a similarity between Chris' action and the teacher's action, not impugning his role as a moderator or attacking him as a person. It surprises me no one seems to have considered that angle of it.

But enough. I'm tapping out.

It's not an inhuman skill. Be aware of what you really want. Be direct and honest. Catch the game of trying to manipulate others as it arises. The more one practices meditation, the more one sees through the game that gets played between the root desires or thoughts and the expression of those in attempts to get others to respond in certain ways. For example, the very common game people play to try to extract praise or support from others by whining about difficulties or putting others down (which you can see play out in any family, work environment, etc.) can instead be recognized as that impulsive need, and gently embraced as a human foible or admitted with a laugh at oneself for ones neediness. The more one is aware of these human-social games, the less one is entangled in them.

Thanks giragirasol. All the more reason to go to a platform that doesn't have those "Do you find this valuable" buttons. On the same line, I have spoken on this thread of the value of the online forum, but there's also a danger, and that is getting caught up in drama. I will post something, then watch the thread for people's reactions, which means I am looking for validation or, in a more sinister vein, conflict. I have gotten weary of the tension on this thread over the last couple of days, yet I've also been drawn to it. It's something to keep track of. Oh, and btw, the "watch this thread" button is yet another trap. I can watch it like a cat at a mousehole. It's not a positive thing.

My 2 cents:

We are probably at a size where the Pragmatic community could use a retreat center of our very own.
I'm working on it. Give me a few years. My working name is "The Land Of Misfit Yogis".

@laurel - I find it fascinating. Once you can see the way thoughts are arising (through the attention to more microscopic stuff) the more you can apply that to developing some self-awareness and wisdom - ie observing the macroscopic. So many of our interactions with others (and theirs with us) are driven by needs for status, love, approval, safety, forming social alliances, covering embarrassment, etc. I find that being aware of this brings with it (or helps develop) a great deal of empathy (towards ourselves and others), rather than the more usual impatience, anger, frustration, etc. It's a useful way to complement a more inward focused meditation practice. It is that insight practice which allows the broader application to family life, friendships, work life, and all the rest of the ordinary world we live in, imo.

@owen - I've co-organized a retreat once. It's a tough job just trying to get the minimum number of people signed up and deposits paid (without some kind of financial commitment to cover costs of food, etc., people tend to just not show up). Coordinating dates, planning menus, sleeping arrangements. Ours only had 10 people I think, for 6 days, but it took months of organizing! That said, worth it!

" I taught everyone social noting (noting aloud in groups and dyads, and Mahamudra noting.) There were a small handful of people there,"

I have seen mention here of social noting before. How is it done? I might be able to use it in a seminar I give next Sunday.

jack

"My working name is "The Land Of Misfit Yogis".


"

I can already picture it lovingly carved into a varnished wooden welcome sign at the entrance to the carpark.

"The Land Of Misfit Yogis" - Owen

Where do I sign up?

"picture it lovingly carved into a varnished wooden welcome sign" - AndyW45

I had envisioned an old neon sign, the kind that makes buzzing noises and where the "Y" flickers on and off so that half of the time it reads "The Land Of Misfit ogis".

"I have seen mention here of social noting before. How is it done? I might be able to use it in a seminar I give next Sunday." -jackha

You already do it, Jack. Social noting is just the new term I've been using as a catchall phrase to describe the various forms of noting aloud with someone else. Could be 4 foundations noting, 6 sense doors noting, or Mahamudra noting, done with a partner or in a group.

"We are probably at a size where the Pragmatic community could use a retreat center of our very own.
I'm working on it. Give me a few years.


"

Please keep us posted!

"I can already picture it lovingly carved into a varnished wooden welcome sign at the entrance to the carpark."

Yep. We are also going to have a "freak out tent" with cookies and trip sitters for those who might have some vipassana fallout.

""I have seen mention here of social noting before. How is it done? I might be able to use it in a seminar I give next Sunday." -jackha

You already do it, Jack. Social noting is just the new term I've been using as a catchall phrase to describe the various forms of noting aloud with someone else. Could be 4 foundations noting, 6 sense doors noting, or Mahamudra noting, done with a partner or in a group."

Kenneth, how do you do it in a group without pairing off?

Jack

Jack, you take turns, go from person to person with each person noting aloud, one after the other.