Psilocybin and Enlightenment

Recent studies suggest that enlightenment and mushrooms probably have a similar or nearly similar effect on the brain.
(Of course in this thread everybody everytime did only legal things, so if you write about experiences, you are writing about experiences under legal conditions like having been in Amsterdam or in a scientific research program at Johns-Hopkins etc, you don't have to tell us)
happinessbeyondthought.blogspot.co.at/20...like-meditation.html and recent research shows the advantages of the use csp.org/psilocybin/

I would like to know if somebody here on the forum tried them both
And can compare the experiences

i ate mushrooms several times in decades gone by, long before i ever had a meditation practice. its a bit hard to compare, because ithe times i did it it was just something to do for fun with friends, and i had experienced altered states before so it wasnt very novel. for example i remember the first time i took lsd vividly, because it was so completely unlike anything i'd ever experienced.

with mushrooms i vaguely remember being very sociable and cheerful and engaged with sensory things for a while, with the senses being very vivid.. i also remember at least once not wanting to be with other people because i felt terribly raw and sensitive to touch and noise.

the problem for me in comparing that to awakening is that those mushroom experiences were without any context and were not long lasting. i also dont recall being functional, as in being able to go to class, etc.

i had some intense altered states experiences from meditation, but awakening has never felt like an altered state, even if there were moments of novelty especially in the first months. i just feel like a normal person who's deeply content and satisfied, rarely upset by anything, and generally loves everything and everyone. im also very, efficient and focused on whatever i am doing, so my work goes very easily and productively, too.

My guess is that compounds only mimic the real deal, which is what meditation engenders.

I have found the pairing of mushrooms and meditation to be very useful, but the possibility of intense or challenging experiences may not be for everyone.

I don't think that at this stage (1st path) I would have had such a large amount of insights and just plain experience in abiding as oneness without the mushrooms. I think of it as a kind of bicycle training wheels thing, not strictly necessary, but something that might be very helpful to some. Definitely makes the jhanas stand out loud and clear.

I had to work up to a very high dose to break the ego the first time. Now it takes almost nothing, 0.5 gm is plenty. I would also say that it could be very easy to miss the stuff I'm pointing toward. Set and setting are very, very important, and there are some things that can be done to enhance the experience that most people aren't aware of. My advice would be to be well informed, close your eyes, go within, and stay present.
insanebraintrain.blogspot.com/2012/03/ps...lic-trip-guides.html

i tried 11g once because of the paper in your link, to see how it compares to my meditative experiences (meditating since 1,5 years). The effect was like a turbo boost for meditation, i was very surprised to reach states just with the shrooms, which would normaly only arise after very long meditation sessions/ days (or out of luck). The effects have been: diminishing/ disappearing of head pressure, void between chin and crown or head gone, less background sometimes just foreground, stillness, wider focus or not feeling/ experiencing a focus, contentment, colors brighter, objects seem cristal clear, dreamy stuff inbetween, upset stomach for the first three hours.

it does beg the question though: experiencing altered states or unusual phenomena or mystical experieneces has, really, nothing directly to do with awakening. what matters in a good practice is sharp attentiveness to what is being experienced in each moment. the content of that experience ( blinking lights, boredom, pain, joy, weird noises, etc) is really irrelevant. certain phenomena are typical at cartain stages, and can therefore be used as guides to 'where' one is, but they are not the cause of insight. they are just what happens to be going on. so im not sure why paying close attention, noting, etc would be more productive done on shrooms than done in the bath, hanging by your toes, in an igloo, on a retreat or in any other circumstances. might not be any less productive either, of course.

"... experiencing altered states or unusual phenomena or mystical experiences has, really, nothing directly to do with awakening." -- Giragirasol

This is absolutely correct in my experience. While altered states might be fun, exciting, even filled with a sort of dangerous allure, they are in the end not part of being awake. They're a side show for the real thing, which is being fully present right here, right now.

Psychedelics can lead to A+P, imo, though I doubt their usefulness beyond that. There is recent, legitimate research into their therapeutic benefits as well, which are substantial under proper conditions. Under unfavorable conditions... disaster.

Wow. It's getting interesting here!!! I experienced a fullblown No-Self by meditation and was surprised that this should be Enlightenment.
In the next months I experimented with it, because it is so close to a state which is used in the hypnotherapy (of untreatable pain) that is called partial depersonalisation (the pain happens then, but not to you/loss of ownership). Even if all scientific datas showed the sameness of both, I was skeptic.
When I heard about the paper that compared enlightenment to mushrooms, there appeared another chance to check out if what I was experiencing was the real thing.

In my experience all three states enlightenment, partial depersonalisation and psilocybin are more or less the same state. The state is in my experience not really an altered state, rather the opposite of an altered state in the sense that something falls away. (If the conditions are bad, the opening creates resistance which leads somehow to altered states. they seem to be a defense mechanism of the psyche).

The combination of all these methods seems to be a very interesting topic for future developments. (Imagine that as I heard on youtube plants can easily be grown (not recommended), and an hypnotherapist normally should not need more than 10 hours to depersonalise a patient)

"what matters in a good practice is sharp attentiveness to what is being experienced in each moment. the content of that experience ( blinking lights, boredom, pain, joy, weird noises, etc) is really irrelevant. "

hi gira, nice to hear from you:-))) what you are writing is how i sometimes saw it. but the thing is: it is not completely effortless this way and this little rest of effort is a problem.
the thing opens to a new dimension if there is no intention, attentiveness, mindfulness to the now or anything else etc.

there needs to be an absolute free flow, to allow the cosmic game to happen, it's mainly playful. This innocent freedom doesn't know that we want enlightenment nor is it interested. going from self to no self to shopping without resistance and back without even interacting with the part that pays attention/or not. only 1g of effort or giving direction stops the whole thing.

Being awake is not a state, so if you're after a temporary state keep taking the meds. But remember, the meds wear off. What we are after here is a long term change in how we perceive and experience the universe. We know how to engender that kind of change, we know it works and we know it lasts. Some may decide to pursue the medication path as an alternative, but I would argue that doing that is delaying the deeper process that I think is the more effective, more long term path. And let's not discount the risks that drug use can carry.

But I'm not here to tell people what to do so you all get to decide for yourselves how to get where you want to go. This is JMHO.

i have nothing against the use of drugs or plants for health, wisdom or for fun, as long as people dont hurt themselves or others. i think the trap that can arise in using them with wisdom practices is that one thinks a certain kind of experience defines awakening, where in fact the great insight of awakening is that it includes all experience.

@ giragirasol:
-yes, and altered states are a trap, no difference if they are induced by drugs or meditation. but what the studies suggest, and this was new to me, is that this substance does not create an altered state but instead switches off the ego for some time.
- in enlightenment in all experiences there is something in common, otherwise enlightenment wouldn't be distinguishable from not enlightenment, isn't it?

@cmarti: - medication is no alternative, I find the combination interesting. that maybe somebody who had seen a place, finds it easier afterwards without hanging around for years in jhanas or narcisstic, stoned and altered states, dark nights or whatever artificially created kinds of suffering there might be.

the fact that 99% of meditators don't get enlightened, doesn't speak for the traditional methods in my opinion. nobody knows yet if the alternatives are better. the risks if taken in an medical environment and having no psychiatric history is zero, according to the johns-hopkins-study. so maybe this will be an alternative in future for those who are not the most talented in training the mind, the normal mass of 7 billion people who would never reach the peak of those who are the most gifted. or maybe it's just another drug and there will be no change in consciousness.

"Being awake is not a state, so if you're after a temporary state keep taking the meds."

everything in human experience is temporary. if one reads the biographies of shunryu suzuki, ken wilber, ram dass, namkhai norbu etc. one can see that bodily problems/illness let their achievements disappear quickly. ken wilber couldn't even enter the witness when in hospital, shunryu stopped taking painkiller while dying of cancer because they made it impossible to keep his state, ram dass woke up in hospital shocked with the loss of all his achievements, namkhai norbu is thinking about to become musician because he is so bored beeing a dzogchen master. there is no eternal safety or something like it.

"...the fact that 99% of meditators don't get enlightened, , doesn't speak for the traditional methods in my opinion...
"

I don't think there has been a statistical analysis of the pragmatic world, but I'm sure the success rate is far above 1%. I don't know anything about your practice, but there is virtually nothing but journals of success here. On the other hand, I know many people into worshipping peyote, or ayahuasca, and they don't seem to really get anywhere beyond the stage of visions and cosmic vibrations.

I don't know of these examples you mentioned where people seemingly lost their attainments but I'm skeptical as to the real implications. Generally, when people experience awakening the changes are permanent, at least compared to the transitory effects of being on a drug.

the original idea of this thread was to collect reports/comparisons of people who have experience with one substance - psilocybin AND enlightenment and see if they fit with the results of recent scientific research.

the idea was not so much to collect opinions of people who have no experience with psilocybin, discuss about hallucingens generally, or suggest the use of hallucinogens. these would be also great threads of course and there is a lot to say about that. just to remember, because I wandered off myself, now one should feel free again to post whatever one wants of course...

this is a rather interesting subject. regarding people not getting enlightened frequently, i would suggest that one reason my be lack of commitment. yes, i know people who have meditated for decades and not awakened. but i know far more who dont want a spiritual, meditative etc practice of any kind, and more still who do not want to change, even when thry are miserable. consider, as a strong example, the abused spouse afraid to leave the marriage, or the person with poor health who is afraid to give up their comfortable habits in favor of a new routine. contemplative practice leads to facing your own mind, letting go of treasured attachments, etc scary. challenging. fierce. thoughts? excuse the clunky typing in my replies. im stuck on a mobile device while traveling.,

" I know many people into worshipping peyote, or ayahuasca, and they don't seem to really get anywhere beyond the stage of visions and cosmic vibrations.

I don't know of these examples you mentioned where people seemingly lost their attainments but I'm skeptical as to the real implications. Generally, when people experience awakening the changes are permanent, at least compared to the transitory effects of being on a drug. "

I am not convinced that enlightened people are more "developed" in the sense of abstinence, they seem to like altered states and drugs, chögyam trungpa was an alcoholic, josho sasaki too, af-richard is a chainsmoker, and we don't need to get into sexscandals: genpo, richard baker, osho, they are rather more "sex drugs and rockn roll" and altered states than others it seems (at least the ones in the public) I mean even Eckhart Tolle took LSD )

"the original idea of this thread was to collect reports/comparisons of people who have experience with one substance - psilocybin AND enlightenment and see if they fit with the results of recent scientific research."

Ok, sorry. I've had psilocybin mushrooms maybe 15 times. I don't think any of those experiences compare in any way to the effect of stream entry. On mushrooms, I would be incapable of functioning in society. After stream entry my relationships are improved. On mushrooms, I'm subject to terror, paranoia, hilarity, hallucination, physical sickness, and the whole experience is generally exhausting. After stream entry, my mood is stable, negative mindstates are consistently reduced, and even my physical health is better with less adrenaline, better sleep... even my skin is better, believe it or not! On mushrooms, I'm pretty much on a mental roller coaster with little control over the ride. After stream entry I can focus better and be more productive. Moreover, my curiosity for any kind of psychoactive or altered state, even a glass of wine, is pretty much gone. (Well, maybe a glass now and then.)

I did experience a lift in spirits after taking a very low-dose that was insufficient to induce hallucinations, and that effect lasted several weeks. I don't think it correlated with any insight or personal growth. To me it was like taking an herb or medication. The effects were temporary.

"I am not convinced that enlightened people are more "developed" in the sense of abstinence, they seem to like altered states and drugs, chögyam trungpa was an alcoholic, josho sasaki too, af-richard is a chainsmoker, and we don't need to get into sexscandals: genpo, richard baker, osho, they are rather more "sex drugs and rockn roll" and altered states than others it seems (at least the ones in the public) I mean even Eckhart Tolle took LSD..."


There are no studies, no academic, peer reviewed quality data that I know of but we do have some information from this group right here, and I'd have to say the hit rate of awakening seems to be much higher than 1%. Anyone who claims to be able to quote the numbers about the success rate of either meditation or drugs is, well, they're probably smokin' something

Also, I can name all the bad eggs in any batch and make any endeavor sound, well, make it sound really bad. That's not very accurate, or fair, as I see it. No offense meant, Loco, but really? Are those people you listed representative of all the people who are awake? Not the ones I know.

"everything in human experience is temporary. if one reads the biographies of shunryu suzuki, ken wilber, ram dass, namkhai norbu etc. one can see that bodily problems/illness let their achievements disappear quickly.... "

I didn't claim anything stemming from meditation to be "permanent." Its effects are, however, much longer lasting than taking drugs. Like, years. Maybe decades

"everything in human experience is temporary. if one reads the biographies of shunryu suzuki, ken wilber, ram dass, namkhai norbu etc. one can see that bodily problems/illness let their achievements disappear quickly. ken wilber couldn't even enter the witness when in hospital, shunryu stopped taking painkiller while dying of cancer because they made it impossible to keep his state, ram dass woke up in hospital shocked with the loss of all his achievements, namkhai norbu is thinking about to become musician because he is so bored beeing a dzogchen master. there is no eternal safety or something like it."

My recent experiences with persistent pain has been surprising with how it affects mood and personality, but at the same time has given me an even deeper realization of emptiness.

All of the blissful, peaceful, no-self enlightenment ideal is simply a conceptual aesthetic for those who want to rid themselves of a certain kind of suffering. In normal moments of (pain-free) human life, the non-conceptual truth of the moment is life-as-it-is and is usually quite blissful and peaceful.

However, this positive concept of enlightenment is not the whole truth of being awake. Some moments are simply filled with pain and confusion. These painful, confused moments can be seen as empty, but the person these are happening to is likely to seem very fragile and human and not much like an idealized Buddha.

When we abide in this moment, exactly as it is AND the human body is healthy, there tends to be side effects of vividness, brightness, lucidity, and peace with no sense of self.

These same side effects may or may not correlate with a possible drug induced state. But are they the same thing? I would suggest not.

A confidence in emptiness allows such a state to naturally arise while simultaneously allowing acceptance of any other state of being. Whatever is happening is happening, no matter what it is.

I know that Nik rails against equanimity in favor of non-arising suffering, but that discussion misses the point that everything is already perfect.

Whatever is happening right now is happening. This is a bigger understanding than a drug state.

I don't know that I can add much here. I think CMarti took the words out of my mouth with his posts. But, having experimented with mushrooms any number of times years ago and having had some small taste of enlightenment, I can't find much comparable in the two. I had some "spiritual" experiences on mushrooms, but none whose after effects lasted that long. Unlike meditation, what mushrooms brought about felt "altered" and other, while the moments where awakeness is present feel natural and like coming home. Also, the effects of meditation seem to deepen and persist, where there is little of my earlier psychedelic experiences that seemed to bring about any long lasting positive effects. As a side note, I'm in recovery so my opinion may be biased in ways I'm not conscious of.

"I've had psilocybin mushrooms maybe 15 times....On mushrooms, I'm subject to terror, paranoia, hilarity, hallucination, physical sickness, and the whole experience is generally exhausting..."

Oh, does that mean you had an experience of terror, paranoia, sickness etc. and repeated it 14 times?