Psilocybin and Enlightenment

"Its effects are, however, much longer lasting than taking drugs. Like, years. Maybe decades "

In most aspects probably, I would normally agree.

but if you read the study above, it shows that even a onetime-dose changed the openness in personality permanently, while enlightenment doesn't change personality at all (see jeffrey martins dissertation, other things yes, but not personality)

And Roland Griffith, himself a longtime-meditator, is the pope of psychopharmacology in the US. This is not a little study of a small university from somebody who just got his PHD. This as high-end as it can get. Aren't the results surprising?

I have a feeling you're right Loco about these drugs being able to create a measurable, perminant initial opening. They must make a patient very clearly see that, in a very deep sense, they are not their mind and A&P seems pretty likely, too.

Of course then we get to the same problem that even gentle mindful stress reduction therapy has: then what? Have we created chronic yogis?

So it could be a glass half full, glass half empty kind of thing.

It is interesting that this is being studied/measured in a scholastic environment though!

Griffith has already begun initial studies with meditators and psilocybin, so that should be interesting.

If the comparison is to abiding enlightenment, yeah, I'm not sure there is even a contest. But to me the real question is whether there is any usefulness to someone not abiding, who is still on the developmental path. To me, again, the bicycle training wheels effect seems useful. Being presented with a larger perspective in a way that is not just academic, but known deeply and completely, seems useful to me.

Some could argue a certain kind of dogmatic rejection from the precepts. I think there is an almost xenophobic rejection from certain people. And yet on the other hand there is at least mild plausibility that the original Tibetan amrita was part psilocybin.

To whoever mentioned experiencing terror or paranoia, or anything unpleasant while tripping, I feel for you, but in my experience those kind of spaces require some kind of belief or resistance that can be let go of. Along those lines, mushrooms healed me psychologically at such a deep level, it's hard not to sing their praises.

Loco, I don't find the study's results surprising at all, but there is a lot more studying to do before I'll be convinced of the efficacy of medication versus meditation. That's just my own take though, not meant to sway anyone else.

"To whoever mentioned experiencing terror or paranoia, or anything unpleasant while tripping, I feel for you, but in my experience those kind of spaces require some kind of belief or resistance that can be let go of. Along those lines, mushrooms healed me psychologically at such a deep level, it's hard not to sing their praises.
"

I would agree, although I'm not sure about the depth of the healing. As I said above, hallucinogens have legitimate therapeutic uses, but therapy is not really comparable to awakening either.

"Oh, does that mean you had an experience of terror, paranoia, sickness etc. and repeated it 14 times?"

It seems like you're not happy with the answers you're getting. Yes, there was usually a lot of unpleasantness involved. That is my experience. That doesn't mean that I dismiss this research, as I've stated in this thread. But neuroimaging is a young science, especially in regard to the subjects at hand.

Hey everyone! Interesting thread. These brain-body, subtle-body, awareness-mind / mindstream; layered and interdependently arising conglomerates that make up the human experience; our experience is multi-faceted and layered, with various depths and subtleties. As such it's a not a trivial topic to clarify how psychoactive plants play a role in this enormously complex system of human experience, but having experimented with most of the classical psychedelics, and also practicing meditation seriously for several years now, I do have a working theory that seems appropriate and relevant to this thread.

It's been a couple years now since I've experimented with psychedelics, but in the past I've worked with LSD, psilocybin mushrooms, DMT, 5-meo-dmt, and mescaline. The psychedelic I have the most experience with is LSD. I'll take a shot at describing how the experiential factors of the psychedelic experience and my practice relate for me.

First off, I agree with others who have already mentioned psychedelics possibly catalyzing A&P events for people, this happened to me, in 2003 when I did a large dose of 5-meo-dmt. I've been on the ride ever since. I've posted in threads in the past here, describing how I think the serotonin system plays a role in both the experiential factors of awakening or the path in addition to the psychedelic mechanism of action. That thread is here:

kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/thread/42...delics+and+awakening .

April 2011, I experienced a shift in practice, during a time in which I was doing a retreat at home for about 2 months, practicing at least 2 hours formal sitting each day, usually a good deal more. For the last year, the changes of that shift have remained persistent, which I feel was stream entry. Since that time I've continued practicing the 3 speed transmission as it's instructed here on KFD.

( cont )

( cont )

I have found that while doing the direct mode practice, that the immediacy, the vividness, and other direct mode factors, seem to be quite similar to what one can experience with LSD. In short my experience with LSD has often showed a marked similarity to both concentration or jhana, as well as at times similarities to direct mode.

So, how do I think they relate, physiologically? Well as the article Loco linked points out, there seems to be networks in the brain responsible for certain aspects of our experience, and both meditation and psychedelics have the potential for temporarily deactivating these "default mode" networks. This is consistent with my experience with both.

Recent research into these effects, and into neuroplasticity seems to support this. Taking this further, we can infer:

Psychedelics seem to affect these networks with a temporary drop in blood flow. While this can lead to lasting knowledge & insight in some cases, the experiential changes are temporary and non persistent in the majority of cases. With meditation, it is my opinion that we may eventually rewire these networks, or at least create a learned cut off switch for these networks. ( thanks to neuroplasticity! ) So we eventually are able to deactivate these networks at will, and with consistent practice, the results of this remain persistent.

Here I am only guessing, but it may be that at 4th path that the default mode is one of these networks remaining deactivated which then is persistent through the majority of our daily experience.

Perhaps these evolved and learned networks and behaviors act as the "obscurations" in many cases. So, it is my opinion that psychedelics CAN allow glimpses of awakening, and of meditative states, which may correspond to the deactivation of certain brain networks, thus revealing the underlying previously obscured state(s).

" These brain-body, subtle-body, awareness-mind / mindstream; layered and interdependently arising conglomerates that make up the human experience; our experience is multi-faceted and layered, with various depths and subtleties. As such it's a not a trivial topic to clarify how psychoactive plants play a role in this enormously complex system of human experience,..."

That's very well stated, malt, and I think very true. This stuff is enormously complex. So much so that it's never really clear what causes what, what effects what. Most folks under-estimate the complexity - a natural human inclination - and distill the effects down to simpler models. That's what we do here, of course, and we assume their correctness and that assumption, backed by practical experience and reports of yogis, becomes our process. It's not validated scientifically but it is validated by experience. So it's hard to decry the stories about psychedelics that rely on the same practical validation process, illegal though it may be in many places

Loco, you might be interested in this thread by Tommy M on DHO about LSD and PCE: dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussio...ards/message/3074604

"betawave: (....) then what?"

LOL yeah, then what?

First one has to know that a change in the topic "personality" in psychology is a huge thing, very rare and hard to achieve. see secular buddhist E84. very, vvvvery rare. that's not like changing a behavior, healing a disorder or something simple. (that's why one can be an enlightened idiot ).

Second, of course you are right, for the person whose personality changed the question is: now what?
Like nearly all western teachers that we have now in the west: in their youth they took hallucinogens, then they tried to do it without them.

I took the other way round and started with meditation. I had bad sideffects during the first No-Selfs like moderate panic, loss of feelings, memory and getting absorbed in the senses up to dysfunctionality (stupidly smiling like ramana)
The absolute effortlessness of the substance made me understand how playful and innocent the same experience can arise, how important it is to give in and that all sideeffects come from overdoing especially the No-Self, how important it is to let happen whatever happens, Self or No-self and that even in DM emotions like love and joy can arise freely in a completely transformed meta-version, which they didn't while I was "clinging" to the senses, the now and shifted position of the perceptor.

It made me understand that, but not master that. That's the meditation-program for the future

The difference is like riding motorcycle or a bike. if you have to pedal you don't take every hill you should and tend to take the easiest and normally not the shortest route. on the other hand you get stronger (in the sense of stability).

But I hope the hallucinogenist aren't right, when they say meditation can never get as deep as the pure material power of chemistry.

The latest episode of Buddhist Geeks has Judson Brewer talking about neuromapping of meditators' brains, and mentions the psilocybin paper. Brewer describes psilocybin as a "sledgehammer."

wow, that thread is truly a goldmine, indeed, thanks for sharing, someguy77. [=

re:

dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussio...ards/message/3074604

@ someguy: thanks for the links. "not happy with your answers": No, I am just surprised that somebody out there is as crazy as me.
- BG 259: I have to stop sponsoring them )
My experience with it is as gentle as can be. I knew most of the things arising from meditation, often they arose in the same order in a more benevolent way. So for me the 2 things are very close to each other. But it's getting clear that thats not true for everybody.

Hi - sorry to jump into this thread so late but it is such a fascinating discussion I had to add to it.

I've talked to enough people who've had no-self and A&P experiences on ethogens that I don't dismiss it lightly. There really is something going on with some of these substances that can catalyze growth for some people.

It has literally been decades since I experimented with these things, so I'm going deep into the memory banks to recall how it was. What I remember was instances of great compassion and feelings of connection. Moments of fascination and recognition of the beautiful in the ordinary. These also had an effect on me after it was over. I seemed more appreciative of things overall. I think I was lucky in that all my experiences were very positive.

It seems that the drug experiences had instances that mimic some of the jhana and insight knowledge experiences. Maybe they are tapping into something similar, some core mechanism that people call "mystical." But here is the thing - while the path and it's experiences are certainly mystical, the outcome of it is not. Awakening seems to be stepping out of the mystical and back into regular life, with everything changed (and still the same!).

This is how awakening differs I think. It seems to be the most sobering thing that has ever happened to me. The insight knowledges, jhana factors and other unusual experiences are now seen as somehow unsatisfying. That goes for drug experiences too.

So while mushrooms or other drugs do seem to do something similar to things that happen along the path - they are nothing at all like enlightenment, which is nothing like the experiences along the path. One way of thinking about waking up is that one wakes up from the interesting experiences of the path itself, to something beyond it which is more real and far more sobering.

@Ron
- if you would take them now, your experience would be different.

it expands experience, as it did with the old ron decades ago. it took the old ron beyond his limits and it would do the same with the now-ron. the old-ron wasn't ready for more than jhanas and mystic and compassion/connection. comparing a new-rons enlightenment with an old-rons entheogens experience is a bias in my opinion. (I mean one would have to take the meditative experience of the old-ron then.)

- it does biochemically not create compassion, jhanas or anything else, it simply switches off the PCC which is ego-activity (simplified)

if the ego inhibited compassion one will feel comp., if it inhibited excitement one will feel exc., etc...

- psilocybin can not be compared to other entheogens, it has different scans.

- historically it is probably the case that meditation mimics hallucinogenic experiences. it was probably not the case that the neandertalers were sitting for meditation 2 hours a day to get an enlightenment they didn't know of. they rather ate some of the 1000s of hallucinogenic plants like mushrooms that grow everywhere, literally on every b*s* and had coincidentally experiences. then they learned and became "shamans". chemistry was probably the core of religious experiences for the most of our history. it was legal, achieveable and known until the 60ies.

-yes, it has its downsides. i personally don't find acidheads very attractive. but it's not entheogens OR meditation, it's about combining them in a safe therapeutic environment. results are scientificly valid IMHO.

@Someguy: As I've gone through the links, I find no contradictions in them to what I am saying. Especially Jud is saying clearly that it is creating a total No-Self, like all other scientists who are involved in the research of it.

"@Someguy: As I've gone through the links, I find no contradictions in them to what I am saying. Especially Jud is saying clearly that it is creating a total No-Self, like all other scientists who are involved in the research of it."

I agree. I posted the links to be helpful, not contradictory. If my comments seemed to poo poo the comparison of awakening and tripping, it's because there are so many chronic psychedelic "yogis," which is even more problematic than just being a chronic dark night yogi. Combining them with serious meditation practice has more appeal to me in a way, but I don't see it as necessary if your practice is strong. Judson Brewer also mentioned that subjects with no experience in meditation showed the same reduction in self-talk brain activity *immediately* when given basic noting instructions. And there is no evidence that tripping a lot makes the no-self experience more lasting. Meditation does.

I still say the most compelling ("spiritual") use of psychedelics is in bringing people to A+P, which is no small thing - the first time.

But don't let me harsh your mellow. If it's working for you, party on!

"@Ron
- if you would take them now, your experience would be different."

Ha! That sounds like a challenge! One I would have gladly taken up at one time, but unfortunately I'm not at a place in my life where I can run that experiment.

I see your point though and it is a good one. To really know we would need to get someone post fourth who would be comfortable disclosing this. I'm certainly not calling on anyone to do so, but it would be interesting.

I do disagree with you though on the idea that mushrooms don't biochemically create mind-states, but only reduce selfing. I've had selfing reduced significantly but it did not result in anything like the mind-states created by mushrooms. Certainly not the kinds of hallucinations and flights of ideas that happened.

Even in moments when I have almost no self at all it does not result in hallucinations or anything resembling a mushroom high. The mushroom high most closely resembles A&P and some of the other effects of the path, but it just does not touch awakening. Since waking up it feels like I'm coming off something more than anything else. Like I'm getting back to reality.

BTW - thanks for starting this VERY interesting discussion Loco!

Everybody has to have my opinion.

"I know that Nik rails against equanimity in favor of non-arising suffering, but that discussion misses the point that everything is already perfect.

Whatever is happening right now is happening. This is a bigger understanding than a drug state."

rail 3 (rl)
intr.v. railed, rail·ing, rails
To express objections or criticisms in bitter, harsh, or abusive language. See Synonyms at scold.
rail2
vb
(intr; foll by at or against) to complain bitterly or vehemently to rail against fate
[from Old French railler to mock, from Old Provençal ralhar to chatter, joke, from Late Latin ragere to yell, neigh]
railer n

Hi Justin,

Are you referring to me? If so I'm not sure where you have gotten the idea that I have 'railed against' equanimity. I have perhaps indicated that it is simply a fabricated vehicle/tool that is utilized on one's path that can eventually be dismantled itself if one wishes to dismantle the whole fabricating tendency of the mind. I don't think I've railed against it at all. Can you point to where this seems to be the case so I can put in a disclaimer or edit what I've written?

Much appreciated,
Nick

i'd do it (take psilocybin) in a context where it was legal and there was some benefit to science (lab setting, for example). feel free to sign me up and send me the airline tickets.

I am already cooling the champagne for the first class flight. but Oh: a buddhist without the fear of loosing control!

possibilities:
1. an alien abduction took place (what happened to the real giragirasol
2. already on drugs
3. is a woman

You'll need to buy more champagne and airline tickets because I'm willing, too. Assuming it's legal I think it would be damned interesting, and fun, to see what would happen.

"I am already cooling the champagne for the first class flight. but Oh: a buddhist without the fear of loosing control!

possibilities:
1. an alien abduction took place (what happened to the real giragirasol
2. already on drugs
3. is a woman"

That's hilarious!. You know, it never occurred to me that Buddhism and fear of losing control were in the same box, but now you mention it, it does seem not uncommon a coincidence. Of course, people in general don't like losing control, so not sure it would stand up to careful study.

I have been influenced by a lot of buddhist practices and attended buddhist sanghas, but I don't think I could be stuffed into the buddhist box very easily. I've also done a lot of trance/spirit possession practices, devotional practices, occult stuff, and am currently on a Christian Mysticism kick. "Fear of losing control" hasn''t held up very well for me.

Also female, yes.

Heh. My intention in using the term "rail" was not so harsh as that definition implies. My intention was to express explicitly that I had a difference of opinion. I interpret writing of yours from the last number of months suggesting that non-fabrication is superior to equanimity. This would be true if ones goal were non-fabrication. If ones goal were to experience the fullness of the human condition while dynamically attenuating suffering, then equanimity might be chosen. But the choice between non-fabrication and equanimity is a conceptual aesthetic choice, so neither has any real *fundamental* value over the other.

But, I am also completely obsessed with aesthetics lately, so my urge to provide a "balanced" view of different aesthetics may be going overboard.

I'm also not asking you to change what you write. The clarity of different lenses/viewpoints is superior to watered-down perspectives.