Third Path

I believe I own the dubious distinction of being the first person Kenneth roped into keeping a public practice diary here. I can recall being very undecided for a few days on agreeing to his request but I'm glad I did. I hope it was helpful to others, not so much because of what it says but because maybe it helped convince others to do the same, thus spurring the creation of the other threads that have either been mentioned or linked to here in this thread.

"But it may even help people that are as confused as I am to see that being confused is part of the game. So I post it."

Yep, that's the thing to do.

It is always as (or more) helpful to me to read about other people's confusion, difficulties and misunderstandings than to just read "it all went so perfectly and just like all those famous books/teachers say!" Because if there's one thing I've experienced over and over, it's hitting points where you think "Am I crazy? Am I doing it all wrong? Is it supposed to feel like this? Should I quit?" etc. And when you see everyone else hits those same points, it's a huge reassurance. And I think it often means more to hear it from modern regular everyday people than to read it in some ancient text.

"
I believe I own the dubious distinction of being the first person Kenneth roped into keeping a public practice diary here. I can recall being very undecided for a few days on agreeing to his request but I'm glad I did. I hope it was helpful to others, not so much because of what it says but because maybe it helped convince others to do the same, thus spurring the creation of the other threads that have either been mentioned or linked to here in this thread.

"

Chris, I am taking the liberty of posting the link: kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/thread/31...fset=0&maxResults=20 . It's pretty fascinating to see. Thanks for doing that. It's barely three short years since you began posting--what a lot has happened in that time!

Time flies!

What I'd like to hear a little more about is reduction in suffering. I woke up after a lousy night's sleep and there was my familiar anxiety in the gut region again. I started to groan and thought, "What's the point! I'll never get rid of this!" Then I thought, just investigate the sensations. Just note them. So I did. But I have to admit I don't like it. I still in my heart of hearts want it gone. It now has much more spaciousness around it, but there's a lurking hope that it will go away.

Yet I do know that hating it and struggling against it is useless, and the only way to deal with it is through acceptance. I've gotten interested lately in how some of this stuff seems to turn on and off like water (I'm in review, which means rapid cycling). I'm also reminding myself not to attach stories to it ("I was raised to be an overachiever, so I always think I'm not good enough; my parents were anxious types so it's in my genes; the weather is creating disquiet in my brain," etc, etc). I've arrived at the conclusion that causes and conditions for everything are so deep and complex that any effort I make to explain it away is only a facade I plaster over it. I also have gotten a clue that all "I" am is a collection of sensations that are continually arising and passing away, and watching the show, and eventually dropping the witness who's watching the show, is getting to the basis of How Things Really Are.

But this is a middle path, and I'm still in the middle of it. So I'm cultivating an attitude of interest and curiosity about it. It's hard not to think about the future--"What will I be like in another year?" In fact, I've given up long-range planning (when to retire, what I might do) especially because I've come to realize I have no idea now what "I" will be like at any point in the future.

You have all the answers...

You want someone to guarantee you that at point X you will never feel anxiety again? The more likely scenario is you will stop being so hung up on it, and since that hang up feeds the demon, so to speak, it will wander off to prey on someone else. In other words, you are working through a process of changing your relationship to things (I am an overachiever, I am afraid of this or that, I don't like the feeling of tension in my abdomen, I am a failure if I don't sleep a certain way, etc.). When the relationship changes sufficiently, those things cease to be bothersome.

Eta: practice, insight and wisdom give us ever more tools with which to work on that relationship (clinging/aversion). Some things drop away now, some later, some suddenly, some gradually. I had difficulties with a couple particular people in my life, for instance. The relationship with one improved radically at 1st path. The other didn't improve at all until a year after awakening. Both were "equal problems" in a sense - no particular reason I can see for one to change and then the other. Just happened that way, and in both cases sort of suddenly and unexpectedly.

I think "reduction in suffering" misses the mark- it's more like "resilience from suffering". When "I" "suffer", it's 100% as bad as it was before and I feel zero percent awakened. However, I work through that much faster- I spend a lot less time mired in the hurt pride or the panic- things that lasted for days might pass in minutes. Maybe suffering "disappears" later. That would be cool. But for me, it really is a question of "increased resilience" rather than "diminished suffering".

It's easy to forget the value of that. The old cliché says that humans are very adaptable, and it's true- when our new normal shifts to so much less time spent suffering, we quickly take that - even that! - for granted!

"You want someone to guarantee you that at point X you will never feel anxiety again? "

Yes, you've totally nailed it!

Rob: Some things still take days for me. It's awfully hard, though, to remember what it was like "back then" (as in a couple of years ago), and of course the new baseline seems unsatisfactory because, as you say, I take it for granted. Kenneth made some quip about "suffering less, minding it more." I think that is quite accurate.

It's true that as we develop in practice we both shed the things that used to bother us a lot, but become so fine-tuned, in a sense, that we discover far more subtle things that are uncomfortable. It's like our senses get more and more refined and delicate. But we also simultaneously are developing an ever greater capacity to be with, work with and understand those things (not necessarily understand as in resolve through intellect, btw). One of my mentors liked to say "it's not that the problems of life go away, they just stop being problems." In my own experience this seems to be both ongoing (a year and a half after awakening) and ever more subtle and...more interesting? Like when some mental swirling or physical discomfort or a challenging real-world situation does arise, I find it kind of interesting rather than unpleasant. "This will be interesting, I wonder where it's going? I wonder what will happen next?" Like yesterday: I used a mirror to watch the dentist give me a filling. I've always loathed the dentist and stared at the ceiling humming to distract myself and come away from it with a throbbing headache from the anxiety. He handed me the mirror early on to show me something specific, and I asked if I could keep it to watch him work. I watched the whole thing and it was completely fascinating. So there's a case where the self-induced suffering I used to feel just didn't come up.

I recall third path territory being quite difficult, with some periods of intense bliss and clarity, but many of deep frustration and grief. But I came at it with total determination to look at everything. I sat fairly intensively coming into it (4-6 short 30 minute sits a day), but later that itself became a point to look at: my attachment to thinking of myself as a driven person who gets the job done...something else to let go of. I scaled down to once a day plus a long walk later on.

Yes, thank you, I haven't looked at it that way before. I tend to focus on negative things that have gone away, i.e. "what used to suck that has now stopped", but it is true that there are new, positive aspects to living that emerge unexpectedly- such as a curiosity, an engagement, a relaxed interest in "what happens next?", even in situations that are "unpleasant".

I have had a growing sense of something I would have previously called "optimism", but I didn't quite like the word as a way to explain it, because it implies that I am hoping for something in the future, and that doesn't ring true. Your description is closer to the mark. Interest.

My understanding, and developing experience, is that suffering still occurs. But... there is little to no "I" to personalize it. It is not "my" suffering.
It is an experience that has arisen based on karma and dependent origination which may be interpreted as unpleasant, neutral, or pleasant. After a short time the experience changes, and is completely fresh and new. It may be "better, the same, or worse" but it is different. And it is still not "mine"
The key for me has been to look at "I", to question that part of the equation. This has greatly changed my experience of life for the better. You seem to be doing just that, and it will pay off if you keep at it.
Regarding paths, I abandoned maps after first, so no idea where I may be.
This is just my own opinion, based on my limited experience.
B

"I woke up after a lousy night's sleep and there was my familiar anxiety in the gut region again. I started to groan and thought, "What's the point! I'll never get rid of this!" Then I thought, just investigate the sensations. Just note them. So I did. But I have to admit I don't like it. I still in my heart of hearts want it gone"

Sounds familiar to me Laurel - I know that really I'd like a big kundalini wave to crash through the knots in my spine and shoulders and leave me feeling easeful and relaxed. But I also know that the tension is just aversion embodied, and that it feeds on itself. Sometimes I ask myself how I would feel if some omniscient being told me that the tension would never go away and that I would just have to live with it. Well, for one thing, I relax pretty quickly. One less problem to solve, because it can't be solved. And, somehow, when the struggle lessens, so does the pain.

But, yeh, I'd still take that wave

A great way of searching the 'depths of wetpaint' is by using google,
for example, to dig up anything chris has posted with the word 'third path', you could enter this query into google:
cmarti third path site:kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com
and you would get any results on this site with the words 'cmarti' and 'third', 'path'.
Not perfect, but still good.

Thanks for the tip, Yadid!

If you look closely at your suffering you will find that it's not the pain that's the problem. The pain is just a sensation. You are adding something to it, layering on anticipation, fear of what you are conditioned to expect next, anger at being in that situation, afraid to feel more pain because it brings... fear of what you are conditioned to expect next, anger at being in that situation, afraid to feel more pain because it brings... fear of what you are conditioned to expect next, anger at being in that situation, afraid to feel more pain because it bring... fear of what you are conditioned to expect next, anger at being in that situation, afraid to feel more pain because it brings...

An endless loop that can only be stopped by not playing that mind game.

Best. Thread. Ever. Except for when Laurel posts the the 'Fourth Path' one.

It really is quite possibly the Best Thread Ever. I'm getting a lot out of it. Neat to see where people's experiences line up.

In that case I'm really glad I stuck my neck out and started it. Now I have another question: I gather that there is not the same marker for having attained third that there is for 1st and 2nd. In other words, going through high eq to a fruition isn't it (am I right?). Rather, it's a question of having certain capabilities. So then, when is the magic moment when we say, aha, I got it, or then again, is there no such magic moment, but rather a gradually dawning awareness? I realize in the case of paths 1 and 2 it can sometimes (often) be a gradually dawning awareness as well. Thanks.

You might be into 3rd path after your 3rd go round the nanas, you might not. It doesn't matter much because at that point you will be into cycles, cycles and more cycles.

Start getting into the Witness, riding the jhanic arc and eventually the Pure Land Jhanas will open up. Then 3rd path is official!

From now on the Progress of Insight is not that useful.

"In that case I'm really glad I stuck my neck out and started it. Now I have another question: I gather that there is not the same marker for having attained third that there is for 1st and 2nd. In other words, going through high eq to a fruition isn't it (am I right?). Rather, it's a question of having certain capabilities. So then, when is the magic moment when we say, aha, I got it, or then again, is there no such magic moment, but rather a gradually dawning awareness? I realize in the case of paths 1 and 2 it can sometimes (often) be a gradually dawning awareness as well. Thanks. "

Are you worried you might miss it?

I tease. But point being, one of the significant processes, I found, that will and needs to happen going forward is accepting not knowing and not controlling... so the question itself points to that attachment. No need to be hostile towards the tendency, but useful to note "attached to wanting to know things and plan ahead" every time it comes up.

For me it there was a rather specific moment of transition/fruition after which experiences characteristic of third path became consistently evident, but I know others who never noticed a specific moment, but just started reporting some of the characteristic experiences with more and more frequency, which clued in that they were in that territory. Your mileage may vary.

I have already seemingly gone through a full cycle with a new fruition since 2nd path with no baseline change. So you will cycle.

I have been told that some have that big fruition and baseline change...others realize they suddenly have have access to NS. I do think you can have PL Jhanas before technically 3rd path.

" If you can access the 5 pureland jhanas and nirodha samapatti, then you are a 3rd path yogi. "

Speaking of things that are difficult to find on the site, I've just done a Google search on KFD on Nirodha Samapatti, since I'm at the point where I feel I would like to start testing myself for Third Path attainment. Unfortunately, I can't find a clear, central text on the NS topic, and how to access NS -- though maybe I'm missing something (?). Fortunately, I remember the podcost where Kenneth talked about how he evokes it. But many folks could be reading the forum and not have a clue that is available, and I recall that different people had found different techniques. I wonder if we could get some key NS info installed in the core texts in the upper left...

There is a lot of information here on that topic:

kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/search/ev...dha?contains=nirodha

Ron made me realize something about how to think about progress after 2nd path since it is not linear like the previous paths. Think about it as the integration of the insights you have already learned into daily life. As you start to have experiential realizations while just walking around, at least to me, it feels like true progress. To me, they feel like very "duh" kind of moments and very simple. But then experiences feel like they slowly change forever.