Third Path

Nothing against that version of things but seems a rather limited view of experiences after 2nd path. For me there was a lot more to it, such as the appearance of the sense of "flow," the sense of authenticity, and a deep connection to stillness. Those things didn't really show up much at all before so there were definitely new insights and perspectives that did.

Well my view is still limited there is obviously much more to it, of course, but this helped me redefine/rethink what progress even means at this point but sometimes things can be so unclear. Can you describe what you call flow?

"
For me there was a lot more to it, such as the appearance of the sense of "flow," the sense of authenticity, and a deep connection to stillness.

"

Chris could you please elaborate more on this? Especially, what do you mean by 'authenticity'? On the surface at least, I relate to what you say here because I'm experiencing changes which seem to line up with your comments...(and Russell's comment too).

And 'flow'; Shinzen Young uses that term too sometimes. I think I know what you and others mean by this...but clarification would be helpful.

And while we're defining terms let's not leave out 'stillness'. Does this mean the same thing to most yogis here? Maybe this topic is something for a new thread '“ 'Dharma buzzwords and jargon'.

Didn't read the whole thread so apologies if this has already been covered. My experience of 2nd to 3rd path was that there was a broad cycle and then a series of cycles within that broader cycle. At the end of 2nd path there was an equanimity cycle where I cycled through all of the other stages of insight, but was totally cool with it all. Then there was a fruition. I was expecting something big. I couldn't find it. I went to sleep soon after, and easily, which I never used to be able to do. I woke a couple of hours later to use the bathroom and reality seemed to be moving without any borders. I kept thinking of a wave. My teacher referred to this as "emptiness in real time", and I understood what he meant. Things seemed very beautiful, very calm. I felt more content than I had since childhood. I remember writing that in my journal at the Pragmatic Dharma site at the time. I would go for a walk and the site of strangers talking under a streetlight seemed unutterably beautiful, as did the wrinkles in the faces of the elderly people I worked with. This faded after a few days, but my baseline mood was definitely calmer. I wouldn't have any expectations though. Everyone's experience is different, and I'm kinda odd.

Following up by request on my earlier comment:

Flow - the universe does its thing and we spend a lot of time ignoring its pace or even fighting it. It has a flow that can be sensed directly and accommodated, lived within, not fought against or pushed back on. There is a "should" element to how most people approach life. I should do this now, do that then, do the other thing next week, and so on. It does not have to be that way. Living according to the natural flow of the universe is entirely possible and is the other way.

Authenticity -- this one is tougher because it's a feeling that things - objects and even people - are either true to their nature or not, not pretending to be what they're not, not posing as something else. It's not quite as obvious as it sounds and it's a sort of intuition that develops when one starts to see the flow of the universe and groks the authentic nature of that, and of the things that exist within it.

Both are sort of like the difference between stillness and movement., if that makes any sense (it does to me but I've been describing it this way for a while now).

I'm not sure this will help so I'll be happy to try again if it doesn't.

Super helpful, both of you! One of the reasons I tried to post at least something in this thread. I am getting lots of value out of all this discussion. Thanks again!

"Flow - the universe does its thing and we spend a lot of time ignoring its pace or even fighting it. It has a flow that can be sensed directly and accommodated, lived within, not fought against or pushed back on. There is a "should" element to how most people approach life. I should do this now, do that then, do the other thing next week, and so on. It does not have to be that way. Living according to the natural flow of the universe is entirely possible and is the other way.
"

Okay, we're on the same page here, thanks for the explanation.

I'll never understand why people would click the "no" on the "do you find this valuable" button in an open forum. I mean, I get the motive, but that ***** crazy.

"I'll never understand why people would click the "no" on the "do you find this valuable" button in an open forum. I mean, I get the motive, but that ***** crazy."

It's okay if folks hit the "no" button, I've done it myself. But it's better to post a critique than "snipe".

Sometimes anonymity gives us a little too much freedom. Ultimately, I favor internet anonymity, but it's also worth imagining "what if everything I did anonymously became public?" I don't think it's my natural paranoia but often I reflect on how, given the way everything gets recorded, it's not an unreal possibility.

Sorry if I'm spreading my own paranoia!

"I'll never understand why people would click the "no" on the "do you find this valuable" button in an open forum. I mean, I get the motive, but that ***** crazy."

Is there some particular reason this feature exists on this board? Is there just no way to turn it off?

"what if everything I did anonymously became public?"

An excellent self-inquiry for Right Speech!

I've always thought it was kinda odd that there is this function to carry out a plebiscite on the validity of people's posts, on a forum that requires as much open-heartedness as this one does. And I think it's pretty obvious that people are using it as a quick-hit putdown.

Maybe we should go on a campaign to massively down-rate every single post, to disempower the function!

It can serve as a reminder that nothing written here is *truly* "helpful" for liberation - we're all selling water by a riverbank


Edit to note that I just found that I can actually down-rate my own post! I might do that from now on

I just down-rated your post to help you along!

Thanks! Back at ya!

One could simply ignore the down-votes. Also, no one seems to be bothered by the up-votes - if there were only up-votes, no one would complain about these buttons. Does that say something?

No.

I think it's best to ignore all the votes, up and down. They don't matter, they're childish and they have no affect on anything whatsoever.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I up-rated the shrugging smilely face!

"I up-rated the shrugging smilely face!"

Haha! Well played, sir. You guys are funny. And I got my first "no" as a result of my initial post. Life is goood!

OK, time to revive this a bit. Can anyone talk from experience when and what went on as NS and PL Jhanas started showing up in your practice. Was NS a gradual thing? How long did it take to develop fully? Same with PL jhanas, before or after 3rd path moment?

So, I've read this thread and many of the links in it to 3rd path journals. I know about the yogis on the mountain, and the party hat. I understand the practice that's being prescribed. I don't understand where it comes from though. What is the role of investigation in 3rd path? Is this still Vipassana? Is this departure according to tradition or a later development by Kenneth? Just wondering about the basis for these instructions. The practice is a lot of fun, BTW.

Are you asking about third path or third gear?

If I understand right, we're always talking about the same "mountain"/"party hat" (rising vertically through the vipassana jhanas / nanas), and the same type of investigation.

The difference is: before 1st and 2nd path, you're doing a single ascent of this mountain, so it's more cut-and-dried which practice you do when.

However, toward 3rd (and 4th) path, you climb the mountain many many many times, so that even in a single session, you may be rising through a full cycle several times. You take the gentle samatha approach in order to let that happen.

Someone correct me if this is off base, but any time you are post A&P, "investigation"/vipassana usually happens whether you want to or not, so the focus is on samatha.

So toward 3rd path, you spend most of your meditation time in that state. The exception is in those gaps where you're starting a new cycle: the "automatic" vipassana doesn't happen, because you are below the A&P of that cycle. In those times, it's good to note, in classic vipassana style, AKA first-gear.

I think this approach is pretty well borne out by the Mahasi tradition, too, though the terms used might be a bit more exotic.

"Someone correct me if this is off base, but any time you are post A&P, "investigation"/vipassana usually happens whether you want to or not"

This!

It always comes back to disembedding / vipassana. There's no point where seeing the phenomena that make up your experience clearly is not a Good Idea. The difficulty comes from equating this to moving through the insight stages. This works well for 1st and 2nd path, but is no longer the goal beyond that. So 3rd path territory is the time unhook from the nanas. You'll continue to cycle between dark night (life sucks, no practice works, my teachers fooled me) and equanimity or A&P (life is good, I've figured it out) regardless of what you do, no matter how many times you go through it.

To say that investigation happens automatically anytime you're post-A&P is a bit optimistic, I think. But, we know you're good at vipassana if you've gotten paths and the practice shifts more to daily life than the cushion. You'll continue to *cycle* (go through the insight stages) whether you practice or not but your life will probably be better if you continue to practice, whether on or off the cushion. To be aware or investigate may not mean the same thing as it did before... it certainly won't require as much effort as it did before, but if you think that you can't space out after 2nd path (any path?) then you're delusional. Noting is always good, but if it doesn't appeal to you at this time (it didn't really for me), that's fine too. Whatever calls to you.

Regarding the emphasis on concentration... since Kenneth's technical requirement for 3rd path is being able to access the 5 pureland jhanas and NS, it makes sense to work on jhanas. There's a lot more to 3rd path which may or may not be related to accessing these concentration states but that can come later as the 3rd path yogi ripens. Kenneth's criteria are based on his interpretation of the Visuddhimagga, I believe, but very few people talk about the pureland jhanas in the same way.