Stages on the Way to Cessation

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HI, Kenneth. If I stop pushing down into it it stops and I come back"out" and can either start over or do something else. It's not an inevitable process until past a certain critical point. That's more or less what I was getting at when I said "willful." I have to keep going or it bounces back. Sort of like a rubber band. -cmarti

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If you do this during the day, then get up and do something else, what is your general mind state following the sitting?

Well, I just tried it because I haven't done this during the daytime yet. I didn't take it all the way because that's not easy for me to do. I stopped after getting pretty far into the dark infinity stuff. Now I'm kind of in a fugue-like state. It's a little bit of an "unreality" feeling. Floating, sort of, but mentally. I have a buzz going. This is not unpleasant by any means. Sort of like "being" Jimmy Buffet as opposed to just listening to Jimmy Buffet. This should have a label that says, "Do not drive or operate heavy equipment while under the influence of this state of mind."

Is that what you meant by general mind state, Kenneth?

"Hopefully, it's also helpful to you, too!"

Honestly? It feels a little "out there" sometimes and I periodically think it might be too personal for a public message board. Sometimes I feel pretty exposed. But I made a pact with myself to do this, so on we go....

Yes, Chris - it is helpful in various ways... particularly since I'm hoping to eventually be able to assist others with their practice. Although, my focus is Zuowang and Dzogchen practice, I think it's of value to have a broad understanding of various practices and methods. The more personal experiences that I hear about, the better. Again, thank you for sharing these reports.

[edited for clarification]

"Well, I just tried it because I haven't done this during the daytime yet. I didn't take it all the way because that's not easy for me to do. I stopped after getting pretty far into the dark infinity stuff. Now I'm kind of in a fugue-like state. It's a little bit of an "unreality" feeling. Floating, sort of, but mentally. I have a buzz going. This is not unpleasant by any means. Sort of like "being" Jimmy Buffet as opposed to just listening to Jimmy Buffet. This should have a label that says, "Do not drive or operate heavy equipment while under the influence of this state of mind."-cmarti

Is that what you meant by general mind state, Kenneth?

"

Yes, this is exactly what I was asking about.

You seem to be describing nirodha samapatti, which is an important developmental landmark because you have to be at least an anagami (3rd Path) in order to do it. But I don't want to jump to that conclusion just yet, so if you don't mind, maybe we could triangulate a bit. This kind of obsessive mapping may not be comfortable for you, so just let me know if you'd rather not play along.

What happens when you ride the jhanic arc up through the jhanas during a sitting? What is the highest jhana you get to before you peak and start back down the arc? Are there 8? If you can get to the 8th jhana, see if there isn't a ninth. (The ability to access more than 8 jhanas is also something that only anagamis and arahats have. There are a total of 13 jhanas, although the final 5 are almost never spoken about in the popular literature.)

Kenneth, I'm going to preempt you (sorry) and self-diagnose and say I'm not an anagami. When I follow the jhanic arc I can count seven jhanas, and *maybe* an eighth, but that's a big maybe. A new jhana showed up a few days ago but I'm hard pressed to describe it since it appears to have nothing to describe about it. Truth be told the word "in" doesn't even really apply. That dark, black middle of the forehead non-jhana sort of capability has been with me for a while but I have purposely stayed away from it. It honestly scared me and though I knew it was there. After starting into it a few times I stopped because it was hard to push into it and it was pretty freaking dark in there. As I said, it appears to be an infinity of blackness and only recently did I puch through it fully. Anyway, I'm still feeling a lot of activity in and around my forehead that arcs up onto the top of my head. From what little I know there's a pretty huge jump into anagami territory and I just don't recall anything like that happening to me. Do I experience the world differently these days? You bet I do! I don't see the world in the way I used to at all. I'm now literally a part of the world and not just an observer. But that has come gradually, albeit with some recent acceleration.

I'll try to see if there's anything beyond this new eighth jhana and let you know. I do notice that if I relax into the feelings in my forehead I can conjure up some very, very pleasant experiences, but that's generated not by pushing down into that area with my attention as I described last night but by just relaxing with the feelings that are there already. Is that something that I should know about?

"I'll try to see if there's anything beyond this new eighth jhana and let you know. I do notice that if I relax into the feelings in my forehead I can conjure up some very, very pleasant experiences, but that's generated not by pushing down into that area with my attention as I described last night but by just relaxing with the feelings that are there already. Is that something that I should know about?" -cmarti

Yes, Chris, I would take a real interest in further exploring this territory, which I believe is the cutting edge of your practice. Keep experimenting with these pleasant sensations that are associated with the third eye chakra, and go as deeply as possible into them when they naturally arise during meditation. You may find that you can go directly to any jhana at any time, and that is an interesting exploration in itself. But there is a price to be paid for manipulation, and that price is usually a vague anxiety along with mental fatigue. The most natural way to explore the jhanas is to notice them arise in succession during a sitting. So, the best time to look for the new "very pleasant" state is after the eighth jhana has faded. Don't be discouraged if the eighth jhana is indescribable; that's its hallmark.

Kenneth

Got it, and will do, Kenneth. As always, your coaching is really helpful.

As an aside, I'm not necessarily uncomfortable with maps but I think if I pay too much attention to them they become easy to obsess over and then they can actually hurt my practice as opposed to helping it. It's seems more natural for me to explore in my own fumbling way. I think some journeys require a map and the paying of close attention to it. Other journeys are better if the map is there but used only when the actual journey is at risk. This spiritual journey is the latter type for me. I realize that what is going to happen is just going to happen and will become readily apparent on its own. I don't believe I can make this process go faster and I doubt I could slow it down, either. Wanting to speed this process up is a trap that it has taken me a long time to see. I'm comfortable right here in my own sort of "middle way" now. This is not a contest or a race. If you manage to make it into one you may do yourself and others actual harm.

Okay, end of rant.

"As an aside, I'm not necessarily uncomfortable with maps but I think if I pay too much attention to them they become easy to obsess over and then they can actually hurt my practice as opposed to helping it. It's seems more natural for me to explore in my own fumbling way. I think some journeys require a map and the paying of close attention to it. Other journeys are better if the map is there but used only when the actual journey is at risk. This spiritual journey is the latter type for me. I realize that what is going to happen is just going to happen and will become readily apparent on its own. I don't believe I can make this process go faster and I doubt I could slow it down, either. Wanting to speed this process up is a trap that it has taken me a long time to see. I'm comfortable right here in my own sort of "middle way" now. This is not a contest or a race. If you manage to make it into one you may do yourself and others actual harm. "

Hey Chris,
Great attitude!

Okay, so when I sat last night I was initially drawn right into that new third eye/infinitely black non-jhana. This has never happened to me before. When I sit I naturally get drawn up into the jhanas. I don't know if it was because I experimented with it to answer your question two nights , Kenneth, or.... jeez, I don't know. I was able to draw back and start over, only to have the same thing happen again the second time. The third time restart was the charm and I spent the rest of the sitting following the jhanic arc.

Power of suggestion? Has to be. Maybe I was focused on the third eye area too much.

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Wave after wave of warm, numb-like sensations washed over me, starting in my hands and feet, and eventually wrapping themselves completely around me like a cosmic bliss blanket. All I did to get that effect, which lasted a very long time after I stopped the actual meditation, was to follow Kenneth's instructions to let the jhanic arc take me up and then when that faded focus on the already existing sensations in my forehead.

Oh.... my.... goodness.

If I stay with this process it slowly gets deeper and deeper and deeper.

I have a business trip that starts tomorrow and lasts for a week. Gosh, what to do on those long plane rides.....

Hi Chris,

Although I've never had fruition occur, I did stumble upon a few Jhanas by accident during my Vipassana practice,
What I found interesting about your post is the third eye thing. I experience strong pressure vibrations in my third eye chakra most of the day, usually it is quite pleasant and I dwell into those sensations whenever I got time to notice.

Hi, yadibd. I'm quite certain that I'll wake up one day, get up and go look in the mirror to find that I really have grown a third eye. Well, maybe not, but that's how it feels. And that feeling has accelerated now to the point that it can be a really urgent kind of thing all day long. Feels like there's actually something up inside there. Something not moving around but pushing against my forehead from the inside. It wants to come out, whatever it is.

There are a lot of changes I want to talk about but I don' t have much time due to work commitments. The most noticeable, and probably the most important change, however, is that I'm now part of the world and not just observing it, and that aspect of experience seems to deepen on a daily, if not hourly, basis. I've also talked at length with Kenneth about my recent experiences and he has helped me sort things out (thank you again, Kenneth!) and as a result I have a much better "feel" for where I am on the Theravada four path maps. I continue to have a lot of activity that is happening at night and early in the morning and was again awakened at about 3:00 AM today and ended up in what I believe to be one of the Pure Land jhanas, which is an amazingly soothing and happy place.

I seem to have lost most of my former ability to agonize over the future and worry about the past. When I'm not directly observing a thing it's just not really there any more, and when I focus back onto that thing it's sort of like experiencing it for the first time. In other words, objects are there when directly experienced but they do not persist -- they are impermanent all the time.

Chris,

Thanks for your posts, quite inspiring.

Though I'm pretty sure I have not reached stream-entry,
I also find myself waking up pretty much every morning at 3am without any apparet reason, mostly on days where I practice well, and then going back to sleep.

Interesting to see it is not just me

I would love to hear some history of your practice, methods years etc..

So, just coming off a long conference and noticing that the distinction that used to exist between practice and not practice has all but disappeared. It's so easy to get into a concentrated state now that it just happens automatically, on its own, ant time, waking or sleeping. I'm starting to question the need to sit formally quite as much. I used to sit twice a day and have recently cut that to once a day. Hmmmm..... what to do?

My decision is to maintain a daily formal meditation practice.

For the first time yesterday I used NS for a purpose. On my plane ride home last night (3+ hours) I leaned back and let 'er rip. Nice tool, that. Very, very nice. When I rebooted I watched the new Scorcese movie about the Rolling Stones called "Shine a Light." The combination of these two things was just breathtaking. Absolutely gorgeous.

Also, I want to tell you that everything is so achingly beautiful just as it is BECAUSE it's fleeting. We all really, really need to grok that. It's vitally important.

"NS" ?

I suspect Charlie Watts may be an arahat.

Sorry, Mike. "NS" = Nirodha Samapatti . Kenneth mentions is earlier in this thread and it was discussed here recently on "The Great Freedom" thread. Daniel Ingram discusses at length in MCTB.

I'm having lots of cessations during sitting and sleep that show me the donut/torus/iris shape. I can invoke them easily enough but if I don't they just happen anyway. I assume this to be a sort of re-observation period. Would that be a reasonable guess, Kenneth? I'm also learning how to use jhanas and even NS in daily life, which I think is a nice thing to be able to do, but doing those things brings on a tug of guilt. Why that would be I don't know. I worked hard to get to this "place" so what's bothering me about using the tools I find here? It's as if by using them I'm being selfish. I'd be interested in hearing from Jackson, David and Kenneth on this particular feeling, assuming you guys have had it.

I also assume that to get to the next stage will require a lot more time and effort than I've put in so far... yes?

Hi Chris,

You wrote: "I also assume that to get to the next stage will require a lot more time and effort than I've put in so far... yes?"

After 2nd Path, the process balloons into a complex fractal, with hundreds or thousands of "mini-paths," each with its own set of 16 ñanas. While it's still possible to see the overall pattern of 4 Paths, the daily situation is one of moving through these mini-paths, one after the next. So, to make progress doesn't require any extra effort beyond what you have done so far. It will continue with or without your active participation, but will be accelerated if you practice regularly and/or continuously.

Spontaneous fruitions happen during the Review phase (16th ñana) at the end of each cycle. The torus shape is something I personally associate with the 6th jhana, the Jhana of Infinite Consciousness, but these images and associations vary from one individual to the next. When I have cessations, I usually don't have any imagery beyond a rapid strobing of the mind, and often not even that.

Thanks again for the detailed chronicle of your practice. It's priceless.

Kenneth

Kenneth, thank you.

I plan to continue my formal sittings every day and then all the other stuff will just happen, too. At this point I'm more or less always practicing, awake or asleep. It is doing me now, because there is no doubt at all that I am not doing it. Can you or anyone else comment on my other question about feeling a bit guilty? Is that normal, or am I somwhow a weird case?

As you know, the appearance of this torus shape preceded my latest stage crossing. And it may not have any real connection to that other than in my own mind. Prior to that what you describe as cessations fit my experience - 'til very recently, that is. I'm assuming these more elaborate cessations will fade as they did before and will end up being more like what I experienced a few months ago -- quick little burps or interruptions accompanied, if at all, by that strobing effect you mentioned. Right now though I'm getting a lot of lightning-like "lights" that precede each cessation and a much more pronounced "agony of anticipation" just before most cessations occur. I also am having a much more pronounced "electricity" sort of feeling, kind of like I've plugged into a low voltage system. This happens mostly at night but it can come on at any time. It's a crackling, anxious feeling. Just a mental feeling. No lights or noises or anything else. Just an electrically charged "jaggedness" to experience.

Jhanas get easier and easier to both experience and identify with each passing day. I've tried to enter various jhanas directly and while I can do that it leaves me feeling uneasy. It's like I'm doing something artificial - out of the natural flow of things - and the mind doesn't really cotton to it much. So I stopped and just follow the normal arc. That's never boring.

"Chris:
Jhanas get easier and easier to both experience and identify with each passing day. I've tried to enter various jhanas directly and while I can do that it leaves me feeling uneasy. It's like I'm doing something artificial - out of the natural flow of things - and the mind doesn't really cotton to it much. So I stopped and just follow the normal arc. Never boring.

"

Hi Chris,
I defer to Kenneth's expertise on the details of the jhanas. As I've said before, I only pass through that territory without dwelling or even lingering there, so I have not observed many of the detailed attributes of those states. I have noted, however, their characteristics. These are precisely the same as the characteristics of ordinary experience: impermanence, unsatisfactoriness, and absence of intrinsic self-nature.

One of the statements I keep on making over and over again (which some folks, such as David, may have found cryptic) is that Awakening is neither an experience nor does it exhibit the characteristics of experience. You can take that as a theoretical claim that must be tested in your own case. I assert without qualm or qualification that this is so. The implications of my claim are that ALL experiences -- here and there, up and down, in and out, mundane or extraordinary -- are fundamentally the same. How we deal with, or relate to, experiences is the only thing that changes. From the "point of view" of Awakening, every moment of experience presents exactly the same challenge, merely differing in degree and details. If you love, help or relate to everyone and everything present in your field of awareness, then your practice -- which is your life -- unfolds in a mysterious yet satisfying way because you operate from the position that is precisely the opposite of the three characteristics: it feels and is permanent, without suffering, and exactly like a self that has no location or definition in time and space.

Hi, Gozen.

I was making a comment on the practice of intentionally entering jhanas "out of order," so to speak. Did you think I was in some way asserting something else? I'm quite certain that jhanas are just states and as such exhibit all the characteristics of any state. Nor do I confuse jhanas with Awakening. Jeez, they're nice and all that but they aren't anything beyond what they very simply are.

So... can you please connect what I said to your point, just for this poor fool?

Thanks.

Okay, wait. Are you, Gozen, referring to that solid, clear, definite and very "here and now" sort of feeling I have sometimes? The one that doesn't have a handle to hold onto? The one that doesn't include me other than as the same as everything else? The one that makes me absolutely certain that everything is perfect as it is? The one that doesn't care about anything but just knows? The sort of thing that I referred to recently in a post here when I said it is absolutely critical that everyone understand that the world is so achingly beautiful *because* it is fleeting? That thing? Were you worried I was confusing the jhanas with that? I'm not.

But thank you for speaking up, Gozen. I sometimes get lost in the technicalities of the phsyio-energetic path.