Stages on the Way to Cessation

Thank you all for the support and the well wishes. I do want you to know that I'm fine and that I find all of these effects, occurrences and energies fascinating and a huge great adventure. It's interesting.

And I liked District 9. My twitchy jumpiness at the time added to the drama.

Tonight this little thread is about non-duality. I sat with all the intention in the world of doing vipassana, but other things just happened. As I was watching the world unfold the thought came: "Who is seeing this?" And then the universe revealed its luminosity as me and any thought of doing or being melted away. I got up after some indeterminate time with tears on my face. Again.

Traveling again a lot this week. Commercial airplanes, es[pecially the window seats, are pretty convenient places to practice -- as long as you don't have a curious seatmate. My practice periods have been unremarkable with nothing ragingly new or different.... and that's okay. I do notice a greater willingness to sit for more and longer periods of time and a new aspect of clarity (around seeing a deeper and wider field of experience all the time) and peace in general, both on and off the cushion. I seem to be able to access certain states at will now. I especially like the one I call "quiet and calm."

Thanks for continuing to share your reflections along the way.

They are like postcards from the path.

hi cmarti, congratulations! and thanks for sharing your experiences. looking forward to the ongoing adventure = )

i also attained 1st path, august 3, but on aug 10, i ended the review and was back in mind/body. i take u have been in review for more than a month now? in mine i only noticed cessation clearly about 3 times during that time. i did not have that much weird or strong energy thruout mine, one day was full of being eaten and shredded to pieces by invisible forces, but not so bad.

did u see anything extraordinary during the day u got stream entry? in mine, i dont think i remember clearly w/c exactly was the exact moment, but a couple of times that day i clearly remember seeing the world with perfect "signlessness", like the objects in my vision were brand new, meaningless. but also in a way that allowed me to see into compassion, and how we are branches from the same tree.

I don't remember the day much at all, mindful. It happened a few years ago. All I really remember is the cessation and a few seconds before and a few seconds after. The instant it happened is very, very clear, even now. But see, at the time it happened to me I didn't know what it was so it carried no exceptional value or weight in my mind. Meaning is funny like that. It's contextual.

oh ok ic. wow that was long ago. do you know what path you are in now? have u been practicing continously throughout those years?

that 'allowing me to see into compassion, or branches of the same tree' didn't feel like it was just a given meaning, it felt like a truth that was touched and experienced and an emotion that was felt for the first time purely, like it is an alien feeling that i only saw that moment.
... but it felt like 'something new', just as cessation is 'something new' and alien. hmm, or maybe it was a meaningless delusion and my minds habit of applying meaning. do you remember what that complex object you saw in stream entry looked like? is it similar to the image i mentioned: like branches, or like: multi-layered sliced bread dimensions existing simultaneously?

"... what that complex object you saw in stream entry looked like?"

It looked like a complicasted mandala. Another time it looked like a complex network of veins seen through thin skin, and another time it looked like a highly ornate temple. Now, if I notice it, it's just a very quick flash of light - not much to write home about any more. I don't place any importance on the look of it, though, and those are very, um, generalized descriptions. I've been practicing continuously since but I have no real clue what path I'm on. I've never placed a lot of importance on that part of my practice, at least until Kenneth Folk got me interested of late.

"
I don't remember the day much at all, mindful. It happened a few years ago. All I really remember is the cessation and a few seconds before and a few seconds after. The instant it happened is very, very clear, even now. But see, at the time it happened to me I didn't know what it was so it carried no exceptional value or weight in my mind. Meaning is funny like that. It's contextual.

"

Hi Chris/cmarti,
The overall structure or pattern will be repeated at every successful path completion, but your understanding of what's going on will deepen each time. When you think about it (and I use the word "you" to mean "one" i.e. a person), our experience qua experience is all of a piece (i.e. all experience belongs to the same category of phenomena). One of the two "things" (i.e. progressive insights) that changes with our maturing practice is how deeply we understand what experience truly is. The other thing that changes is our understanding of what does NOT change, because it is NOT an experience and so does NOT display the Three Characteristics.

OK, enough abstractions. Here's what it means where the rubber meets the road of the Path:

Awakening (which we'll tag as being completion of Fourth Path) has exactly the same phenomenal (experiential) pattern as attaining First Path, except that it is finally understood completely. (a) Going into cessation is known and remembered. (b) Cessation is known as Awareness without any objects of experience (not even subjective experiences). (c) Emergence from cessation is known and remembered. Then you (the knower) have the "crazy" feeling that all of this is incredibly profound and important, while at the same time being perfectly ordinary and something which has always been there in the background every moment of your life. You feel blissful and bouyant. And then you do the laundry (or whatever work needs to be done).
[Edited spelling]

Yes, thanks, Gozen. Very helpful.

Gozen, the path seems to me to be an ever increasing objectification of experience. What I mean by this is that slowly over time and through various experiences we gain the ability to see more and more of what's going on in our experience, not as a participant but from a more objective, observational POV. I think this maps pretty well onto what you have said here and what Kenneth has explained in his written material about the path.

Question: where do you put the experience of rigpa/kensho in the model you described? I seem to be able to get to that pretty easily these days. As I described in a recent post on this thread, sometimes the mere thought of "what am I?" or "who is experiencing that?" can invoke it. I believe that experience (rigpa/kensho) is the peak experience of the path but it does not seem to map onto the four path model you and the Theravadans describe. It seems different, outside of that model to me. Yes? No?

Help....

Also, please, everyone, call me "Chris."

Hi Chris,
Yes, you're correct that development on the path involves "an increasing objectification of experience." Instead of identifying with experience as "me" we recognize it as something that just happens, like a summer breeeze. It's "out there."

As to your other points, let's first examine your terminology: "the experience of rigpa/kensho".

"Kensho" (as the term is often used) refers to an insight, but not to the permanent turnabout or transformation in "point of view" that IS Bodhi/Awakening.

"Rigpa" is the Tibetan term for the One, the Buddha-Nature, the Ultimate. Rigpa is What or Who you truly are, and thus can be recognized as being what is always already the case. But kensho/insight and rigpa are **not** experiences. Experiences are intrinsically impermanent, never completely satisfactory (even if only by virtue of their fleeting nature), and without whatever it is that we could properly call "self-nature."

Certain experiences are associated with rigpa's recognition (literally "knowing again" or "cognizing beyond the superficial"). But those experiences are not rigpa itself.

You may get to rigpa "pretty easily these days" because it does not map to the Thervadin four path model and rigpa is not an attainment. Rigpa is never absent; only our conscious awarness of it can come and go. I refered to the four path model (saying that we'll tag Awakening as being completion of Fourth Path) because such a mapping is simply convenient. We find is easy to conceive of developments when they are arranged in such a map. But the map is not the territory. Just as a map of the USA leaves out the rest of the Earth, and a map of the Earth leaves out the rest of the universe, so too will any comprehensible map we make be unavoidably incomplete and therefore somewhat misleading.

That pretty well matches up to what I thought. It's nice of you to spend so much time on this.

Thanks again!

""Rigpa" is the Tibetan term for the One, the Buddha-Nature, the Ultimate. Rigpa is What or Who you truly are, and thus can be recognized as being what is always already the case. But kensho/insight and rigpa are

**not** experiences. Experiences are intrinsically impermanent, never completely satisfactory (even if only by virtue of their fleeting nature), and without whatever it is that we could properly call "self-nature."

Rigpa is never absent; only our conscious awarness of it can come and go."

Is Rigpa synomous wth "I am" or is it the Absolute? The reason for wanting the clarification is the terms "the One" and "Ultimate" suggest it to be the Absolute. While to be consciously aware of Rigpa puts it into the realm of "I am". I am guessing the word "conscious" mabe the slippery term here. Anyway it would be good to clarify terms so the "I am" and the Absolute are not confused between traditions.

[edit] added quote from previou thread

"Is Rigpa synomous wth "I am" or is it the Absolute? The reason for wanting the clarification is the terms "the One" and "Ultimate" suggest it to be the Absolute. While to be consciously aware of Rigpa puts it into the realm of "I am". I am guessing the word "conscious" mabe the slippery term here. Anyway it would be good to clarify terms so the "I am" and the Absolute are not confused between traditions."

Words fail. (You know the currently popular FAIL blog? It's like that.)

I can only take responsibility for how I used those words -- the One, the Ultimate, rigpa (or Rigpa?). And then there is the term "I am" which you used. For teaching purposes in the current context, I would equate all those terms; they all mean the same thing.

But tomorrow I may say something different. I may choose to distinguish between some of these terms because I want to make a practice point. Or I may toss all those terms into the dustbin and use something else. We can easily get stuck on particular terms, reifying them into mental objects, which then become stumbling blocks in our path.

Take the word "conscious" for example. It is indeed a slippery term. In some traditions, Consciousness is IT (i.e. the One, et al). In traditional Buddhism, consciousness (small "c") is merely the 5th skandha (aggregate). Similarly, I slid that slippery term into my sentence as an adjective modifying awareness (which is another slippery term!) in order to make the point that the BIG THING (rigpa) is unchangable, but we see it only by the flickering light of our conscious awareness.

I like that dustbin thing. Let's forget all the terms and go practice... and then live our lives.

"
I like that dustbin thing. Let's forget all the terms and go practice... and then live our lives.

"

Thanks Gozen; and I am with fully with your sentiment Chris.

My "living life" seems to be one of looking in dustbin's, not helpful .

Another update this morning after meditation: there remains a "stillness" accessible to me that does not flee as conditions arise. Accessible at any time, it is. While it's hard to describe the effects are quite real. It arises immediately when I sit down to meditate. It is otherwise available pretty much whenever called upon, and is very nice and calming and quiet and....well, nice, calming and quiet. I don't know what it means, but I can actually use this in daily life, which I think is extraordinarily important. What is most noticeable is patience with other human beings and other things that are usually seen as "external" phenomena. I seem to be more prone to apologize for real and imagined slights when called out by others. This, I theorize, reflects the slow diminishing of the sense of "me" being so central to experience. Patience is a funny and somewhat unexpected expression of that, I think.

What this is not: this is not a limitation on what I can do, what I feel, or my innate reactions to what happens around me. All those things remain as they were. This is more like the ability to observe from afar that which is occurring in the immediate vicinity and see the nature of experience, as I said yesterday, from a more objective viewpoint. It is what led me to make that remark.

Maybe this is a new level of equanimity?

Nothing particularly new to report. I'm busy, busy, busy at the office ritgh now and will be until mid-November but I am pondering the need to actually go on a retreat at some point because, well, I think I need to do that. So I'm open to suggestions. What's a good place to go if you are in my place, my condition. I'm not a fan of hierarchy and I have plenty of self-control so I don't think I need someone else to keep my nose to the grindstone. I'd probably have more trouble doing so if pushed in that direction.

"not to forget the original topic, but I had a similar movie experience in 2006 or 07. The movie was David Lynch's Mulholland Drive. Someone had described it as a metaphorical tour through the bardo realms. I was intrigued.

But after I watched it, I literally suspected that I was being haunted for about 2 weeks after that. I'd start my standing meditation, and would feel a sense of unmooredness and impending malevolence. It stayed with me throughout the days. And took about 2 to 3 weeks to subside."

Incidentally, this is the very kind of thing a simple banishing would have taken care of within a few minutes.

Interesting thread, I'm following closelyl...

I've been out and about in the world for the past few days, mainly with my economist friends. (Now that's a group that could use a good dose of spirituality!) I've had little time to practice formally, which is frustrating but, as I probably mentioned somewhere here before, isn't necessarily a terrible thing, especially after my friend Gozen reminded that a practice doesn't just take place on the cushion. So I made it a point to practice while I was working, talking, thinking, and so on. I've noticed that this practice kind of settles in no matter what you might be doing at the time, and the more you work on it the easier it becomes to sort of "be there" with it. Then, too, business meetings can offer some really interesting opportunities to just let go. Ego and I/me/mine are always on high alert in that milieu, for everyone, and noticing your own is a fascinating way to notice everyone else's

In the just letting go there is.... everything.

A nice session on the front porch this evening, the first since Sunday morning. I ended up playing a sort of cat and mouse game with objects or, better said, the subject-object aspect of normal awareness versus a much more expansive and immediate view. There was a sort of strobing effect going on with "me" seeing things from an everyday perspective (I'm here, it's over there, a mental map of my physical location determining perspective, geography, things like that) and then a super wide, in-your-face very intimate experience of being everything sensed, from the butt on the floor to the kids playing down the street to the cars driving by to the train whistle in the distance. Periodically this dance would lead into to a very deep visual field that was dark but held a fuzzy blue light in the center of the background. The blue light seemed to be comprised of smaller individual dots. After what seemed like a few minutes one of our cats jumped up in my lap and cried to go inside. It had actually been over 45 minutes since I sat down.

Of course, I got up and let the cat in... and fed him.

Today I feel like I'm not getting anywhere. Practice seems chaotic. Random. Unfocused. Is this related to a chaotic day at the office? Don't know. Sometimes it feels like I don't have the verbal tools to say things adequately. Like a little kid who's limited to one syllable words and needs Websters. Is this a new path showing up? Don't know that either. There's only one thing I do know and that is to push on because that's the only way out, or forward, or up. Whatever.

When I sat I had a serious amount of tingling on the back of the neck. Hair standing up on end kind of stuff. Weird. Not a bad feeling, though, but different. The energy has moved. Why? Maybe I should become a map maven. That might clue me in...

Really don't know.

"
I've been out and about in the world for the past few days, mainly with my economist friends. (Now that's a group that could use a good dose of spirituality!) I've had little time to practice formally, which is frustrating but, as I probably mentioned somewhere here before, isn't necessarily a terrible thing, especially after my friend Gozen reminded that a practice doesn't just take place on the cushion. So I made it a point to practice while I was working, talking, thinking, and so on. I've noticed that this practice kind of settles in no matter what you might be doing at the time, and the more you work on it the easier it becomes to sort of "be there" with it. Then, too, business meetings can offer some really interesting opportunities to just let go. Ego and I/me/mine are always on high alert in that milieu, for everyone, and noticing your own is a fascinating way to notice everyone else's

In the just letting go there is.... everything.




"

Sorry - meant to post a response to this earlier.

Just wondering if you've ever encountered Peter Senge's thought or Otto Scharmer with "Theory U" - talks about how to create institutional change in line with an enlightened perspective - might be helpful in terms of integrating practice with work.

www.presencing.com/presencing-theoryu/

""Today I feel like I'm not getting anywhere. Practice seems chaotic. Random. Unfocused. Is this related to a chaotic day at the office? ...Sometimes it feels like I don't have the verbal tools to say things adequately.""

Hi Chris,
Putting it altogether, perhaps you will see the answers to your questions herein.
"...a "stillness" accessible to me that does not flee as conditions arise. Accessible at any time, it is. ...It arises immediately when I sit down to meditate. It is otherwise available pretty much whenever called upon... I can actually use this in daily life, which I think is extraordinarily important. What is most noticeable is patience with other human beings and other things that are usually seen as "external" phenomena. I seem to be more prone to apologize for real and imagined slights when called out by others. This, I theorize, reflects the slow diminishing of the sense of "me" being so central to experience. Patience is a funny and somewhat unexpected expression of that, I think."
"What this is not: this is not a limitation on what I can do, what I feel, or my innate reactions to what happens around me. All those things remain as they were. This is more like the ability to observe from afar that which is occurring in the immediate vicinity and see the nature of experience..."

"I've been out and about in the world for the past few days... I've had little time to practice formally, which is frustrating but... isn't necessarily a terrible thing, especially after my friend Gozen reminded that a practice doesn't just take place on the cushion. So I made it a point to practice while I was working, talking, thinking, and so on. I've noticed that this practice kind of settles in no matter what you might be doing at the time, and the more you work on it the easier it becomes to sort of "be there" with it." -Chris