Stages on the Way to Cessation

Hi Chris,
In reply to your 2 most recent messages to me:

(1) I know that you were not confusing the jhanas with Awakening.

(2) I was indeed connecting back to your earlier statements about "that solid, clear, definite and very "here and now" sort of feeling" that you have had sometimes. Everything you've said about it in your various postings has been right on target.

At the end of your last message, you said that you "sometimes get lost in the technicalities of the phsyio-energetic path."

That's why I posted what I did. I know you understand that the jhanas are not Awakening. But they are immense, offering so many pleasant possibilities, that we can get lost in their technicalities and their pleasures.

So it's important that fools like me re-state the obvious now and again

And it's important for silly fools like me to listen.

You know, I just got here. I mean, I'm pretty new to this level of Theravada practice. It's exciting and wonderful, and the jhanas are indeed immense, fascinating and often very, very pleasurable. But having tasted the Ultimate I'm certain I'm not in danger of getting lost in the jhanas. Of course, that kind of certainty has the earmarks of massive folly written all over it. So again, Gozen, I thank you for being here and for reminding me. Please feel free to do so at any time. I also feel very comfortable that Kenneth more than gets it all, and as long as I stay within the reach of one or both of you... well, you'll slap me back into what really matters

I have yet to find a jhana that measures up to that Ultimate Thing. I told Kenneth recently that I was beginning to feel a hole in my practice, and this was why -- not enough of the Ultimate.

Edit: spelling.

Hi Chris,

As always, your exchanges with Gozen are instructive and profound. What a treat it is for those of us who get to see it! I just want to get back to your question about guilt, which I forgot to address before. You wrote:

"I'm also learning how to use jhanas and even NS in daily life, which I think is a nice thing to be able to do, but doing those things brings on a tug of guilt. Why that would be I don't know. I worked hard to get to this "place" so what's bothering me about using the tools I find here? It's as if by using them I'm being selfish. "

It's very common for yogis to feel guilty about enjoying the pleasure of the jhanas. In all of the cultures that compete for our attention, including Christianity, Judaism, and Buddhism, we are warned about the dangers of greed. At the same time, though, we are promised some reward if we do everything right. And the reward is always described as some variation on unending bliss! Ha, ha, what a "mindf_k"!

Keeping in mind that pragmatism is king, the question is how to have a good, authentic, and reasonably pleasant life while spiraling ever deeper into the understanding that "it isn't about me, anyway."

As westerners who are utterly drenched in Calvinist guilt, I don't worry that most of us will succumb to the siren song of jhanic pleasure. If anything, the opposite is true; most of us will so carefully skirt the edges of bliss that we will fail to develop the concentration necessary for progress through the strata of mind. So far, you have done an excellent job of threading this particular needle; your progress speaks to that fact. My recommendation is to enjoy jhanic pleasure as a natural part of a whole human life and observe the guilt as it arises and passes away in each moment.

Kenneth

Kenneth, I'm thoroughly humbled and exceedingly happy to have you and Gozen both here and, further, to be able benefit from your expereince and wisdom so directly. I want to tell you how much this means to me. It's huge, as my teenage daughter would phrase it. Huge.

Thank you.

And speaking for the rest of us, it is equally huge that you are sharing this in real-time, Chris, and we get to continue to eavesdrop while you are being guided through this. Way huge.

"Hi Chris,
...
It's very common for yogis to feel guilty about enjoying the pleasure of the jhanas. In all of the cultures that compete for our attention, including Christianity, Judaism, and Buddhism, we are warned about the dangers of greed. At the same time, though, we are promised some reward if we do everything right. And the reward is always described as some variation on unending bliss! Ha, ha, what a "mindf_k"!

As westerners who are utterly drenched in Calvinist guilt, I don't worry that most of us will succumb to the siren song of jhanic pleasure. If anything, the opposite is true; most of us will so carefully skirt the edges of bliss that we will fail to develop the concentration necessary for progress through the strata of mind. So far, you have done an excellent job of threading this particular needle; your progress speaks to that fact. My recommendation is to enjoy jhanic pleasure as a natural part of a whole human life and observe the guilt as it arises and passes away in each moment.

Kenneth"

Hi Kenneth and Chris,
There is a certain irony in this for me. What I said here with regard to the bliss states is counterbalanced elsewhere by what I say to my Zen students. They've long read in Zen texts that the jhanas are to be avoided. I encourage my students to learn and explore the jhanas without becoming attached. My duty, as a teacher, is to sympathize with whatever the student seems to be denying or leaning away from. So I'll often appear to be somewhat contrarian.

Regards,
Gozen

"And speaking for the rest of us, it is equally huge that you are sharing this in real-time, Chris, and we get to continue to eavesdrop while you are being guided through this. Way huge."

Way, way huuge.

"So I'll often appear to be somewhat contrarian." -Gozen

You'll hear no complaints from me, Gozen. Three quotes come to mind:

"My teacher has contradicted everything he's ever said to me." -Shinzen Young (from memory)

"Do I contradict myself? Very well, then, I contradict myself. I am large. I contain multitudes." - Walt Whitman, Song of Myself

"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines." -Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance



Kenneth

"It's very common for yogis to feel guilty about enjoying the pleasure of the jhanas.....As westerners who are utterly drenched in Calvinist guilt, I don't worry that most of us will succumb to the siren song of jhanic pleasure. If anything, the opposite is true; most of us will so carefully skirt the edges of bliss that we will fail to develop the concentration necessary for progress through the strata of mind....My recommendation is to enjoy jhanic pleasure as a natural part of a whole human life and observe the guilt as it arises and passes away in each moment.

Kenneth"

First of all, thanks all for this conversation. Chris, your reports are really helpful to me, as a younger practitioner, with unraveling the beliefs and worries that have been forming in my mind about insight ability declining with age (analogous to difficulty with language learning). Given that I've had a clear grasp on conventional impermanence for a while (i.e. aware that I could pass away any day now), it's good for me to be reminded that in the (statistically) likely case that I'm alive 15-20 years from now, I could make robust progress on the path at that point, as well as now. It's a check on anxious urgency.

Secondly, and I'm speaking from a pre-stream-entry POV, here, I want to share my approach to bliss, similar to Kenneth's but a little different. Different in that IMHO bliss (and the ability to enjoy bliss) is not just natural, but in fact healthy, nutritious and recommended. *Please dispute if you disagree.*

Lately, I've been enjoying jhana in the midst of sitting and daily life as a refreshment, like stopping for a deep drink of water on a long hike. It's pleasurable, energizing, and a really good way to keep going. No need to feel guilty about that!
; )

Cheers,
Ryan

Note:
I edited your post, Kenneth, for brevity. My bad if I subtracted something vital.

Okay, here we go again...

For the past few weeks I've experienced an increasing change in my perception. Yes, that's right, in the way I perceive things, as in see, hear, touch. It started as mostly a vision thing, but it is now getting stronger by way of feeling, body awareness and hearing. I can't prove this is related to my practice but it appears to be so because it seems to be related to the sort of light-headed feeling that accompanied the emergence of more immediate access to the jhanas.

Please allow me to do my best to describe this, but words will not really be adequate: I have a very electric-feeling sense of things. I see and feel jaggedness, edginess, impermanence. I see behind and in front of my eyes at the same time. I see an "aura" all the time, not so much as an obvious and in your face thing, but inferred. I feel hollow tonight. Yes, hollow, in terms of the sense of my body. I see blue, but not the color blue, the sense of blue. This is all accompanied by a very clear, fairly emphatic sense of... impermanence. Yes, that what I'm seeing wherever I look is not essence. There is a mental compenent to this that's not clear to me (yet?) and I need to sit with this more to grok that part. Well, I hope that will help, anyway.

I asked Kenneth about this in an e-mail tonight. I was concerned because of the accelerating nature of this phenomenon, and wanted to compare notes. I really think this is related to my practice because it has that physio-energetic feel to it that I'm becoming intimately familiar with. It's quite un-nerving RIGHT NOW, and it's getting more so with each passing day. It doesn't feel bad, really, but it sure does feel DIFFERENT. I see different, I hear different, I sense different.

It fades away, and almost completely sometimes, but then comes back and when it comes back it usually comes back stronger than before.

Bizarre, huh?

"Bizarre, huh?

"

Yes, quite bizarre. And yet, not out of the ordinary... at least not in my experience.

Though this stuff manifests differently for a lot of people, what you're describing sounds a lot like a span of time I went through in my practice. I was practicing A LOT during that time, and the intermediate realm stuff started becoming really apparent. That's right, "intermediate realm" stuff. That's what this is. At least that's my guess.

Things can get pretty weird there for a while, but it won't last forever. You'll be able to revisit this way of seeing by intention and resolve in the future, but it won't be your every day state for long. Enjoy it while you can, and remember that you're not going crazy. It's just a part of the fun.

I remember noticing that reality manifests both in particulate (binary) and wave-like (analogue) ways. I'd see big waves of reality pulsing and shifting, and I'd notice the cracks in between, and how they canceled out in to nothing. I saw little tiny flickers of experience going in and out, lie each tiny particle had an on/off switch. And I noticed the aura stuff too, particularly with animals.

Anyways... I just thought I'd share my experience. It's good to journal about this stuff so you don't forget. Things start to get a lot more "normal" after this stage. It's all just a part of making progress.

~Jackson

EDIT: I should mention that this stuff really ramped up for me sometime during late second-path. Early second-path was all about the chakras, man. Once the chakras started to balance out, the other stuff started showing up. Does that correlate to your experience at all? Just curious.

You've just made my day, Jackson. Thank you.

It continues to unfold...

There's no obvious center point. The old anchor, the center of the universe, that feeling of eyes and ears and feeling and what-not being located inside the head, of the safety and security of that feeling, is gone. It's GONE. ("You mean, Copernicus, that the earth isn't in the center of the universe? How so? Isn't it just obvious? To everyone?") You may not realize how much you rely on that feeling, but you DO, and once it's gone you WILL notice! My perceptive field is enormous, or so it seems. Panavision. Dolby sound. Technicolor. I am, to quote the woman in Shinzen Young's 'The Science of Enlightenment," big. Sensations are unmediated in the sense that the reference point of "me" isn't included in there, in the perceptive process. At least not right now. I think that's a major part of the un-nerving feeling, but it's also starting to feel more or less liberating. And, to top it off, this now appears to have some metaphysical and moral implications, but I'm going to hold off on talking about those tonight because if I got started I think I'd end up writing a book and WetPaint only allows for 2000 characters

More tomorrow, I'm sure.

Chris,

I know the territory you're describing. Very surreal. You're actually describing what sounds to me like anagami (3rd path) stuff, especially when you start talking about feeling "BIG." It's a bit like the way that 5th samatha jhana feels big, yeah? Let me know if I'm off base.

Don't worry too much about the reference point stuff. Trust me on this. Just keep practicing, making time for both concentration and investigation. Take the time to enjoy the territory and keep giving us updates as things progress.

~Jackson

Yes, it's anagami stuff, Jackson. Same thing today, no change. A month ago "I" was large inside my head, had a "narrow" field of experience and my own thoughts occupied much of the territory up in there. Now there's a tiny little "me" rattling around in an enormous field of experience. That's the "big" part. The sensation part hasn't changed from yesterday, either.

Kenneth told me I was in anagami territory several weeks ago on a phone call and I resisted saying anything here because, well, because it makes me very uncomfortable. But yeah, it's clear to me that's what it is. And, of course, Kenneth is always pretty much right on target, followed by the few of you who have also "diagnosed" me -- David a few weeks ago and now you, Jackson.

So.... the "big" feeling is what carries all the metaphysical meaning, and I'll post about that at some point but you can all probably guess what I'll say.

Wow, it's really so good to have others who've been there to talk to. At one point yesterday evening I was about to crawl out of my skin. I e-mailed Kenneth, posted here, and then went to lie down. As I lay there just soaking it hit me, WHAM!, all of sudden -- "Hey, now I'm really tiny and I'm rattling around in this enormous THING!" It felt like I had lost something or like something was cut off or disconnected. This, I believe, was previewed by the "hollow" feeling I was talking about here last night.

Whew.

Chris,

Based on your description, the testimony of others, and my own experience, it's hard for me to disagree with our favorite Buddhist Geek (Vince Horn) that the anagami/3rd Path stage is congruent with Tozan's Third Rank. I know that there is some contention around this idea, in that Kenneth has told me that he thinks Tozan's Ranks and the Theravada Four Path Model are somewhat unrelated (Kenneth, correct me if I am mistaken).

Here's what Bill Harris has to say about the Third Rank:

"You are established in the transcendent, not as a place to visit, but as a place to live. This third stage is what is generally thought of as enlightenment'“taking up permanent residence in the transcendent. In this place you aren't just 'one with everything,' you ARE everything, and everything is you. (In fact, you always were everything. It's just that now you've realized it, not intellectually, but experientially.)...

The experience is one of having no boundaries, no beginning, no ending. From this perspective everything is just as it should be, including everything you used to think of as 'good' and everything you used to think of as 'bad.'"

(continued below)

(continued from above)

Both Tozan's Third Rank and the anagami/3rd Path are stages where a big chunk of duality drops and a true sense of "I AM THAT" first emerges and generally abides. Without good teaches and adequate models (which both you and I are fortunate to have), many people get to this stage and think, "That's it! I'm done!" Rest assured - there's more to come

Just in case you haven't read Bill Harris' articles on Tozan's Five Ranks, I have provided links below.

"The Five Stages of Enlightenment" - bit.ly/27nAmo

"So, there you are, enlightened..." - bit.ly/1g9q2D

I guess I should probably state why I thought it necessary to bring this whole Tozan's Ranks thing up...

I find Tozan's model extremely helpful, particularly for the stage you (Chris) are experiencing. Having some foresight in to what lies ahead can give you the edge you need to keep things moving and to keep from getting complacent. I'm not at all suggesting that I think you are anywhere NEAR complacent, as I believe the opposite is true. Nevertheless, as a fellow dharma dude, I do what I can to be one of the many fingers you see pointing to the moon.

Have I mentioned that I think this thread freaking rocks?! Thanks for continuing to share your experiences with the world, Chris. I'm sure that many sincere seekers will benefit from this detailed chronicle of your journey.

~Jackson

"
The experience is one of having no boundaries, no beginning, no ending. From this perspective everything is just as it should be, including everything you used to think of as 'good' and everything you used to think of as 'bad.'"

"

- sounds like a good place to be .....

Jackson, thanks for the references! I'll be reading that material pretty quickly.

"I should mention that this stuff really ramped up for me sometime during late second-path. Early second-path was all about the chakras, man. Once the chakras started to balance out, the other stuff started showing up. Does that correlate to your experience at all? Just curious."

Yes, my experience is very much like that. And coincidentally, the "other stuff" all started to show up not too long after I started this thread, so it's a weird kind of confluence of events based on where I was and Kenneth asking me to start this online journal. Maybe Kenneth kind of knew what was going to happen. (Kenneth?) I certainly didn't.

@Mike, now it feels like a good place to be, sort of. But last night it felt very much like the rug was being pulled out from under me.

"Yes, my experience is very much like that. And coincidentally, the "other stuff" all started to show up not too long after I started this thread, so it's a weird kind of confluence of events based on where I was and Kenneth asking me to start this online journal. Maybe Kenneth kind of knew what was going to happen. (Kenneth?) I certainly didn't."

Thanks for the further information, Chris. It's been fun to "talk shop," with you.

The intermediate realm stuff seems to follow the four major States of consciousness that Ken Wilber talks about (which he picked up from Advaita Vedanta and Tibetan Mahayana Buddhism). They are: gross, subtle, causal, and non-dual. Gross if your waking, everyday, non-enlightened stuff. First path gets your foot in the door to start experiencing more of the subtle stuff, but not much. The subtle stuff really ramps up during 2nd Path, particularly with how noticeable chakra activity/development becomes.

The shift in to 3rd Path is where the causal realm stuff gets more apparent. For example, during regular sits I remember accessing levels of mind where whatever arose was accompanied by its opposite. I first noticed this when working with the "Mu!" koan. "MU," as you know, means, "No!" As I recited the koan while deeply concentrated, the "No!" was accompanied with a "Yes!" that was just as emphatic. It was as if "No!" could not really exist without "Yes!" somewhere in the mix, and that Sasaki Roshi is right when he talks about the Source polarizing itself into opposites in order to be observed as particulars (heavy stuff, yeah?). It was yet another interesting way to observe the activity of Impermanence, and at a much deeper level than simply noticing that things don't last, which is sort of a kindergarten variety impermanence.

As for the non-dual'¦ well, what can be said?

Jackson, I just read your links. I see what you're saying about there "more to come," and it is sobering. Sobering indeed.

Thanks.

"
Jackson, I just read your links. I see what you're saying about there "more to come," and it is sobering. Sobering indeed.

Thanks.

"

Sobering, yes. But there are some other "goodies" to look forward to as well, depending on how the whole thing plays out. I've never read a description of a person's insight progress that was exactly like someone else's. Though, it is almost always somehow related to what is influencing their practice at the time.

I'm saying that you shouldn't expect your progress to play out just as the article details. The degree to which different landmarks manifest varies greatly from one person to the next, from what I understand.

I'm looking forward to your future updates. Don't forget to enjoy yourself, and don't forget to let yourself be curious if that's what happens. Explore the hell out of this terrain if you are so inclined. There's so much to discover!

Jackson, From the perspective I have now the past is more or less gone and so is the future. What I see that I never did before is the seemingly infinite reality that is mind and universe. I don't frankly know which causes which because they're really an identity. There is a vast openness, no center. The universe can be experienced right here, right now, IS right here and now. As I drove home from the office I did think about the need to explore, and so I really do get the "be curious" part of your comments and plan to do exactly that

Also apropos to your links, Kenneth asked me a few weeks ago, "Are you done?" As I'm sure he would tell you, that question surprised, flummoxed and confused me for some minutes. The article you posted puts that confusion into good perspective. No, I am NOT done. I don't feel done. I feel.... open. I feel weird. I feel crazy energy. But I don't feel like this journey is over. I look forward to more with a mixed sense of anticipation and dread (I gotta be honest, there are times when this is painful and scary). This last 24 hours has produced the biggest metaphysical, energetic, philosophical and perceptual change I've ever experienced. It's funny how this plays out over time -- I would have expected a huge, short duration BANG and then everything would be different immediately. Well... no. This has played out of the course of about a month as pieces popped into place, went away, came back, and alternated with other pieces. This has been much more like watching something grow. It is ORGANIC. Which of course argues for the biological basis of it we've talked about and is assumedly why Kenneth calls it a "physio-energetic" process (hope I got that right).

I'm rambling and I sort of scared my wife last night in the middle of all the hoopla so I want to be with her now. I may even watch a soap opera with her

Chris, I remember getting the "Are you done?" question from both Kenneth and Tarin. It's a real trip. It's safe to say that when you're done you'll know it at some level. At another level, though, you'll probably continue to doubt yourself to some degree. It's because we make a habit of doubting everything all the time. I hear it can take a while for the doubting thing to fade off, after getting it done and all that.

I think you're in a great place, man. Congrats on your progress.