Stages on the Way, Part II

Starting a new thread with this post. Happy New Year everyone! I don't seem to have much luck with resolutions but here's a great 2010 for all of us.

FYI - Kenneth has frozen and locked the old thread for me. It was getting awfully long, so... along with the new year comes a new thread.

"
Starting a new thread with this post. Happy New Year everyone! I don't seem to have much luck with resolutions but here's a great 2010 for all of us.

FYI - Kenneth has frozen and locked the old thread for me. It was getting awfully long, so... along with the new year comes a new thread.

"

Happy New Year!

The old thread is a wonderful resource and I'm glad it's being preserved.

I'm looking forward to your posts in this new thread. Thank you so much for sharing your experiences and insights on the Way with us.

Michael

Some of the more esoteric discussions on this site have begun to break down for me these days. Not sure why, but they begin after a while to seem so removed from my own practice that I can't find them. I can't understand them and I seem to have no desire to, and that's just weird for me. I'm concerned about this. It's as if I can't "get" the complexity in the discussions. It's making me think there's something going on that I really need to address, or that it's a phase or a stage oriented thing. I dunno. I do know that as I read the solipsism and freedom conversations today this feeling kicks in with a vengeance.

Anyone else ever had this happen? Or is it just me?

And... I've been struggling with emotions again. My emotions sometimes seem to come from nowhere, to be someone else's or like bolts of lightning, as if from on high. If any of you have ever read the "Foundation" trilogy of science fiction stories by Isaac Asimov you will recall a mutant character called the Mule who could alter the emotions of human beings. It feels like the Mule is making me feel what I feel. Not all the time, mind you, but enough to make it quite noticeable.

Bizarre and unsettling, but not surprising. It's more evidence that control is a chimera.

"
Some of the more esoteric discussions on this site have begun to break down for me these days. Not sure why, but they begin after a while to seem so removed from my own practice that I can't find them. I can't understand them and I seem to have no desire to, and that's just weird for me. I'm concerned about this. It's as if I can't "get" the complexity in the discussions. It's making me think there's something going on that I really need to address, or that it's a phase or a stage oriented thing. I dunno. I do know that as I read the solipsism and freedom conversations today this feeling kicks in with a vengeance.

Anyone else ever had this happen? Or is it just me?

"

Yes, very much so.

Ever since experiencing a flash of the Absolute, I've lost all taste for discussion. Discussion - words, thoughts, concepts are within the realm of dualism. As I've more and more experienced the Absolute, I've lost my taste for discussion, for the play of words, thoughts and concepts, which are like clay and can be formed into anything - it just depends on how clever one is.

I rarely get involved or respond to discussion any more, in forums or in person. The point of my practice is to leave duality behind. I can still be involved in a discussion, yet as I am, I know how multi-sided and inconsequential and (for me) unpalatable it is.

I prefer the simplicity of direct Understanding. Which is why I practice.

Hope this helps in some way.

Michael

One more comment: I love arguing/debating stuff with people like a dog loves to chew a bone. It was always fun, challenging, stimulating, interesting. I've been arguing with other people online for years and years and years. Since forever. All of a sudden, I don't want to argue so much any more. I do though want to communicate. This has never before been my M.O. So the twist here, and I'd say it's practice related if you put a gun to my head and made me choose, is that the heart is now involved at a completely different level. A year ago I wanted to hear me and I wanted to be right. Now, I don't care so much about being right but I do care about "right."

Dominoes..... they just keep falling as that's their nature.

"Hope this helps in some way."

BTW - to my post #5 up there about arguing and debate -- truth isn't about things and facts. Never was, never will be.

"Right."

"
Some of the more esoteric discussions on this site have begun to break down for me these days. Not sure why, but they begin after a while to seem so removed from my own practice that I can't find them. I can't understand them and I seem to have no desire to, and that's just weird for me. I'm concerned about this. It's as if I can't "get" the complexity in the discussions. It's making me think there's something going on that I really need to address, or that it's a phase or a stage oriented thing. I dunno. I do know that as I read the solipsism and freedom conversations today this feeling kicks in with a vengeance.

Anyone else ever had this happen? Or is it just me?

"

Seems normal enough to me - probably good.

Why spend a lot of time on things without personal relevance, or mincing words for their own sake?

The frustrating thing for me about such conversations is that in trying to express a (nonlinear) insight, one is either forced to go one of two routes: 1. An overly lengthy explanation involving technical and sometimes improvised vocabulary. In this route one often spends more time explaining the insight than it's worth.

or 2. Brief apocryphal, paradoxical, ambiguous, or otherwise nonsensical statements.

You can never say - "Hey, have you ever noticed that when putting on a slope above the cup, the most common error is to overshoot? You want to try to underhit it in that situation. (etc.)" So you wind up getting in these lengthy conversations defining terms and whatnot just to get on the same page - when once communicated the insight is of similar value and complexity as that example...

I remember the Mule. Cthonic emotions, eh? Say more about it.

"Say more about it."

There's really not all that much more to say, David. As I watch these things play out from a third party perspective the emotions aren't always as connected to events as they used to seem to be. So if I'm being honest and thorough about this it could be the result of a view change as much as it is a true process change, if you get my drift. But it appears to be just like what Asimov described. It's like there's a dial somewhere in hyperspace that has settings on it marked "angry, sad, happy" and so on, and someone, not me, is turning the dial and thus altering my moods.

You're a psychiatrist so I'm afraid you'll come back and tell me I need to seek real help

Bizarro World here I come!

Well, if not connected to present events or circumstances, are they connected to anything else (past circumstances for instance)? Is there a theme or preponderance of any particular emotions? Any patterns you've noticed?

For a moment, let's pretend there is a kind of Mule figure - what's his objective?

D

His objective is to make me wake up, David.

In other words, as much as the physio-energetic processes stemming from my vipassana practice have seemed to be driven by something external to "me" the same applies to this "other," whatever it is. It makes little logical sense, of course, but as walter Cronkite said, "That's the way it is."

"
In other words, as much as the physio-energetic processes stemming from my vipassana practice have seemed to be driven by something external to "me" the same applies to this "other," whatever it is. It makes little logical sense, of course, but as walter Cronkite said, "That's the way it is."

"

Chris, I can relate to what you're saying. For me, it's like something is calling out to me from the depths of my being, and it's impossible to ignore it. There's a gravitational force to the process, and it just keeps getting stronger - pulling me in. But Who could it be other than Who we are already? That's the part that astonishes me.

Although I have some ideas about it, in all honesty, I have no idea what's going on here.

~Jackson

The words that keep coming to my mind are "tidal forces." Huge, unstoppable, indeterminate energies that push and pull and do what they do. Whatever power I thought I had over any of this is like a tinker toy to this enormous force.

"
The words that keep coming to my mind are "tidal forces." Huge, unstoppable, indeterminate energies that push and pull and do what they do. Whatever power I thought I had over any of this is like a tinker toy to this enormous force.

"

Let me take a non-Buddhist quote here from my late, great Guru, Adi Da Samraj, that always came back to me when I felt the sort of things you're describing, Chris.

Adi Da said "Nothing anyone has ever done has Liberated him or anybody else. Liberation is God's business."

There is this sense that we do some sort of preparatory work, and then we get wrenched out of our little world by forces way beyond our understanding or control. We are along for the ride. But we have to hold on like hell or we'll be dashed on the rocks below!

Regards,
Gozen

Ha! You said "felt." I assume this implies that at some later date, maybe an eternity, maybe next week, this will play itself out?

Not sure about the agency, but the force that propels us toward awakening has to do with what Bill H. called being on "the ride." It begins in earnest with the first Arising and Passing of Phenomena. All of us here know that irresistible pull. It's funny, but what might be thought of as the first half of practice is all motivated by that dharmic gravity. Then, one day, that pull goes away; the ride is finally over, and an amazing thing happens. You keep practicing anyway! I don't know why. Maybe it's habit or momentum, or maybe you've finally ground away enough of the conditioned ignorance that you start to be spontaneously absorbed into awareness. But it feels like rolling down hill. It's not a ride anymore, or a pull. It just feels like going with the flow. And it's so obvious that there is no limit to how deep awakening can go. It goes infinitely in all directions. For me, this is about learning to be a human being, which oddly enough entails learning that I am a fiction, or perhaps a passing thought.

Kenneth

"
Some of the more esoteric discussions on this site have begun to break down for me these days. Not sure why, but they begin after a while to seem so removed from my own practice that I can't find them. I can't understand them and I seem to have no desire to, and that's just weird for me. I'm concerned about this. It's as if I can't "get" the complexity in the discussions. It's making me think there's something going on that I really need to address, or that it's a phase or a stage oriented thing. I dunno. I do know that as I read the solipsism and freedom conversations today this feeling kicks in with a vengeance.

Anyone else ever had this happen? Or is it just me?"

For me (and for reasons vastly different than yours) most of the discussions are turning out to be way above my head and level of practice, and I freely admit to looking around for, and trying to set up, more practice-oriented discussions. I have said this many times: the level of experience here and at DhO is staggering, and everyone is very willing to help. But I sometimes feel like I am interrupting a cocktail party of PhDs to ask how to do long division.

I avidly follow your Stages thread(s), however, as a taste of what is hopefully to come.

-- tomo

Hi, Tomo. Have you thought of creating a topic here called something like "Early Stage Practitioner Discussion" or something like that? There are some risks to that but why not give it a try? What you describe is what Daniel Ingram has always wanted to do with DhO but I haven't visited DhO in some time. Isn't that happening there? It certainly used to.

"
Hi, Tomo. Have you thought of creating a topic here called something like "Early Stage Practitioner Discussion" or something like that? There are some risks to that but why not give it a try? What you describe is what Daniel Ingram has always wanted to do with DhO but I haven't visited DhO in some time. Isn't that happening there? It certainly used to.

"

It is still happening at the DhO. I've been participating a bit in the "Dharma Diagnostic Clinic" page on the site, and there seem to be quite a few practitioners working their way through the ñanas leading up to stream entry.

There's no reason why we can't have those discussions here as well. Heaven knows there are people on this site who have lots of experience with that territory, and would be glad to help others with their practice. In fact, the DhO still has Kenneth's "The Idiot's Guide to Dharma Diagnosis" fixed at the top of the above mentioned discussion page. We have the resources, so what's the issue?

I posted a thread separate thread in hope of coming up with some ideas of how we can make this place more friendly to practitioners working toward finishing the first path of the 1st Gear. Feel free to share any thoughts you have on the subject.

kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/thread/36...l+stages+of+practice

"
Hi, Tomo. Have you thought of creating a topic here called something like "Early Stage Practitioner Discussion" or something like that? There are some risks to that but why not give it a try? What you describe is what Daniel Ingram has always wanted to do with DhO but I haven't visited DhO in some time. Isn't that happening there? It certainly used to.

"

Chris and Jackson,

Starting a generic thread like that is, I think, not super helpful. I want to underscore that, when I need help, I do post specific questions and I do get great answers. I think the issue here (at KFD) is that I don't get the benefit of listening to other's problems and solutions; there does not seem to be that kind of participation. So (Jackson) the issue is not one of resources to solve problems, it is one of not enough in this particular community struggling with the basics as opposed to the "bigger" issues. Yes, DhO is better for that, but I am not getting tons of joy there either for whatever reason.

I guess I want more people to have *my* problems so I can get further faster. And I realize that is a near impossible thing to satisfy (hmmm, does not satisfy...why does that ring a bell?) when my only sangha is a virtual one.

Grumble, grumble. Nothing to see here...move on.

Hi Tom,

Sorry if my posting a new thread wasn't helpful. I appreciate your added clarification as to why you feel you're not really getting what you need from the various virtual dharma communities you're a part of.

Having people within a group who are at the same stage as you is helpful. I am fortunate to have people like Chris and Michael in this forum, who seem to be flying in the same sky as I am (practice wise). So I now know that it's not a matter of being able to facilitate that sort of thing, but rather just a matter of who hangs out here.

I guess there isn't really anywhere to go with this for now. Oh well. I tried.

Now, back to Chris' wonderful practice journal!

~Jackson

I sure misunderstood Tomo, too. Sorry, Tomo.

As I practice more I've discovered that certain experiences occur more off the cushion than on, and usually in that gray area between being awake and being asleep, and for me that means waking up early in the morning. Yesterday, however, stuff happened while I was sitting in the living room in the late afternoon. This wasn't jhanic activity or anything like that, but rather it was a dropping of all the mental "fixins" of everyday life. There as a brief spell of dizziness followed by a deep realization of non-duality, and a feeling of floating. Not physical floating but mental floating, wherein there is complete acceptance, quite contented acceptance, of there being no ground, no floor, and no need for the security of anything. That life is a wonderful experience of experience, just that, nothing extra needed or wanted. What we all call "good" and "bad" and "fun" and "sad" and whatever, it's all the same stuff, and the beauty of it is in the experience of all of it, regardless.

And there's less vipassana, more heart. There are now when hearing certain words, when they're put together in a certain way, when said in a certain way, when carrying certain meaning, will cause me to just choke up spontaneously. It can be during the watching of a movie or television, listening to a conversation, seeing certain images. Whatever invokes this, the result is extremely powerful, almost uncontrollable. I can hold it back on most occasions, but not always. It's a huge surge of feeling that comes up from my chest and enters my throat and ends up in my head as my eyes tear up. I've been trying to find a way to describe the feeling, but it's pretty difficult to say that it's anything other than truth flowing directly through me. That sounds odd, I know, but that's the closest I can come.

"...there is complete acceptance, quite contented acceptance, of there being no ground, no floor, and no need for the security of anything. ... What we all call "good" and "bad" and "fun" and "sad" and whatever, it's all the same stuff, and the beauty of it is in the experience of all of it, regardless.

And there's less vipassana, more heart. There are now when hearing certain words, when they're put together in a certain way, when said in a certain way, when carrying certain meaning, will cause me to just choke up spontaneously. It can be during the watching of a movie or television, listening to a conversation, seeing certain images. Whatever invokes this, the result is extremely powerful, almost uncontrollable. I can hold it back on most occasions, but not always. It's a huge surge of feeling that comes up from my chest and enters my throat and ends up in my head as my eyes tear up. I've been trying to find a way to describe the feeling, but it's pretty difficult to say that it's anything other than truth flowing directly through me. That sounds odd, I know, but that's the closest I can come.

"

Something very deep wells up from the heart. It's not an idea. It's not "cool" like penetrating insight. It is completely authentic and achingly beautiful. It precedes experience, and so is not dependent or grounded in experience. But it sees experience as beauty itself, regardless of what form experience might take: both the breathtaking woman and the aging crone are cherished equally. This is the truth of all experience: none of it is necessary, yet all of it is precious.