Stages on the Way, Part II

In the end this is about finding out what it is to be human. Funny, because that's sort of why I started. "Why do I suffer?" Is just another way of asking that question.

"The first is about 'do,' the second about 'see,' and the third about 'be.'"-cmarti

Brilliant! May I quote you?

Kenneth

Of course you can, Kenneth.

"This is the way it is. You detach. You let go. Whenever there is any feeling of clinging, we detach from it, because we know that that very feeling is just as it is. It didn't come along especially to annoy us. We might think that it did, but in truth it just is that way. If we start to think and consider it further, that, too, is just as it is. If we let go, then form is merely form, sound is merely sound, odour is merely odour, taste is merely taste, touch is merely touch and the heart is merely the heart. It's similar to oil and water. If you put the two together in a bottle, they won't mix because of the difference of their nature'¦

Oil and water are different in the same way that a wise person and an ignorant person are different. The Buddha lived with form, sound, odor, taste, touch and thought. He was an arahant (Enlightened One), so he turned away from rather than toward these things. He turned away and detached little by little since he understood that the heart is just the heart and thought is just thought. He didn't confuse and mix them together.

The heart is just the heart; thoughts and feelings are just thoughts and feelings. Let things be just as they are! Let form be just form, let sound be just sound, let thought be just thought. Why should we bother to attach to them? If we think and feel in this way, then there is detachment and separateness. Our thoughts and feelings will be on one side and our heart will be on the other. Just like oil and water'”they are in the same bottle but they are separate."

~ Ajahn Chah, 'The Training of the Heart' in Food for the Heart

That gap, that hole, that seemingly privileged space I mentioned the other day... it's just a space. It appears to be different because that's where our eyes are located, where our brain is. You can't see your own eyes. So maybe because we can't see in there we reify it, make it out to be something special, turn it into a mystery and then that clouds our perception. Well, what happens in there is what happens everywhere. Stuff. Just stuff. It's all just stuff, all the way down.

"
That gap, that hole, that seemingly privileged space I mentioned the other day... it's just a space. It appears to be different because that's where our eyes are located, where our brain is. You can't see your own eyes. So maybe because we can't see in there we reify it, make it out to be something special, turn it into a mystery and then that clouds our perception. Well, what happens in there is what happens everywhere. Stuff. Just stuff. It's all just stuff, all the way down.

"

what is the material we create by the belief that all the "just stuff" is "me" (we quickly take in perceptions of the stuff and create this "me" feeling and "me" image and have "me" thoughts and do things then as "me" that other "me" s react to etc.)
is this just more "just stuff?" or is it in a different category? (my guess: just "stuff)

For context to Chris' "stuff all the way down" comment, here's an entry from Wikipedia:

William James, father of American psychology, tells of meeting an old lady who told him the Earth rested on the back of a huge turtle. "But, my dear lady", Professor James asked, as politely as possible, "what holds up the turtle?" "Ah", she said, "that's easy. He is standing on the back of another turtle." "Oh, I see", said Professor James, still being polite. "But would you be so good as to tell me what holds up the second turtle?" "It's no use, Professor", said the old lady, realizing he was trying to lead her into a logical trap. "It's turtles-turtles-turtles, all the way!"

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtles_all_the_way_down

"what is the material we create by the belief that all the "just stuff" is "me" (we quickly take in perceptions of the stuff and create this "me" feeling and "me" image and have "me" thoughts and do things then as "me" that other "me" s react to etc.)
is this just more "just stuff?" or is it in a different category? (my guess: just "stuff)
"

I actually am just guessing here. At my exact stage of insight I can see the "just stuff" but I can also see the insidious and irresistible and compelling and relentless force that turns it all into "me." And from here that force is so huge that it seems like it's own entity released upon birth from chains of DNA.
Of course I'm very curious how it will look when or if I gain more insight.
(back to your regularly scheduled program)

I sometimes wonder about this. Am I seeing something now that was not here before? No, I don't think so. What I am seeing now was here the whole time. I was just discounting it. I don't see anything new. I've just lost the need to see something other than this.

At least that's one perspective.

I remember feeling very strongly in 2004 that I had wasted 22 years of seeking because I couldn't now see anything that had not been here the whole time and yet what I could see now was good enough.

I even based my teaching for several years on just asking people to directly see what I was seeing. It worked, too, for some people, for a few minutes, as long as I was with them. Then, they went back to suffering. I guess that's when I went back to emphasizing the whole package, with a scaffolded approach and techniques that people could use. Whether it was a coincidence or not I couldn't say, but I could see in so many yogis a correlation between decades of practice and the ability or willingness to see and accept what had been here the whole time. It is a wonderment.

What prompted Kenneth's last comment was this private message from me:

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"Kenneth, I've become somehow laser beamed in on the nature of experience and I thus realized that it has to be only what it is, just what it is, and that somehow the seeking of some "it" factor, some nebulously defined desire to find a "thing" that would allow me to get the thing is ridiculous and a complete waste of time. This little tiny realization - why is this realization so oddly powerful? It has always, always been a part of my presumption about experience and what is going on -- that there is something I wasn't seeing. It's NOT TRUE. I'm seeing what there is to see, and the dropping of that unstated assumption about what is going on makes such a major difference. How odd!

WTF??? It is as though the trying, the wishing, the assuming, is what gets in the way of just seeing.

Over the past few days it has become more obvious that what happens is just plainly what happens. This is a such a weird little change to the thing. Is this possibly the result of the fact that I have been absolutely and relentlessly focused on this stuff for a few weeks now? When this began happening on Friday it was absolutely and abundantly clear, much like in non-dual awareness, that there is nothing simpler, though this is not like non-dual awareness but is its phenomenological cousin.

Stop looking. Stop seeking, and just see.

Of course, now that I type this it seems trite and silly and obvious. But it was not that way before and now it is."

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So, that's the exchange, between us, but in reverse order.

So somehow seeking is that which obscures finding.

"It is a wonderment"

The simplicity and unremarkable nature of this is what makes for wonderment. Not a mystery now that there is a circle in the ten oxherding pictures.

Wow Chris, you and Kenneth's interaction was inspiring. Thanks for keeping us up to date...

Thanks, Clayton.

BTW, I've asked Kenneth to freeze and lock this thread. I may one day start another but for now it feels right to end this one and spend my time trying my best to enjoy all the stuff that flows by in that unending stream.

Peace