Stages on the Way, Part II

'This feeling brings an odd image to mind -- that of a jelly-like brain infused with an electrical current. Wet, static-y, energetic.'

Sounds less like an odd image than a description of what is the case-- or so I've read. Pretty interesting to actually EXPERIENCE it, though.

While laying in bed last night I was meditating on the nature of "me" and how that manifests. It's really quite persistent. If I start in what I would call a normal, everyday operational mode almost everything I think or feel is presumed to be me. As I peel back the layers off the "me" onion and as each successive layer is objectified the grosser sense of me fades but some subtler sense remains. Even when the onion has been peeled way, way back there is a nagging sense of some nebulous little kernel that is presumed almost unconsciously to be me. Maybe this is the hall of mirrors effect folks talk about, but the persistence of the idea that there is a static, permanent me from which I observe all else is very, very strong and persistent, almost all the way down.

There is, then, an intellectual component of not self that arises, usually as a mental image for me, and a felt, in-the-bones sense of not self, which is the absence of any conscious or unconscious assumptions of a static, permanent me. In the end I was left with this:

I am nothing more than a unique perspective on the universe, which has organized a tiny fragment of reality (this body and this mind) in such a way that it can loop back through that perspective and be aware of itself. I am truly no thing but the universe observing itself. That perspective thus created is what causes space and time to arise, because in the raw, undifferentiated ultimate reality there is no time and there is no space. Those, too, are mental constructs.

So, ultimately..... no time, no space, no me.

"That perspective thus created is what causes space and time to arise, because in the raw, undifferentiated ultimate reality there is no time and there is no space. Those, too, are mental constructs. "

Just curious-- does this perspective on time and space come from an intellectual/conceptual basis, or are there any experiential / practice-related insights that indicate this?

"I am nothing more than a unique perspective on the universe, which has organized a tiny fragment of reality (this body and this mind) in such a way that it can loop back through that perspective and be aware of itself. I am truly no thing but the universe observing itself. That perspective thus created is what causes space and time to arise, because in the raw, undifferentiated ultimate reality there is no time and there is no space. Those, too, are mental constructs."

I know I am going to regret this, but I need to wade into this because, every time I take out my telescope and look up...well...there is a whole lot of stuff going on quite nicely without me. I may be a "part" of it, and there may not even be a distinct "I", but this I-thing didn't cause it. The universe was there long before me, and will be there long after me. Furthermore, it is not a construct of my mind, because you can see it too and if I got hit by a car tomorrow, you would still see it.

Am I taking something too literally?

".. does this perspective on time and space come from an intellectual/conceptual basis, or are there any experiential / practice-related insights that indicate this?"

Both, Brian. There is an experience, the "feel" of what I have described here as "it" (experiential, felt, whatever you want to call it) generated by the dropping/death/elimination of everything, and then there is the concept/idea/thought version of it. Pretty much what Nagarjuna decribes, I'd say.


"Am I taking something too literally?"

Tomo, there really is a universe. It's not imaginary as far as I can tell. It's not a product of any one of us... me, you, anyone. It IS us. All of us, all at once, inseparable. And as you say very accurately, it is timeless and it doesn't care one tiny little bit about you, or me, or anyone. As for the concept of causation, well, that whole idea is kind of moot, ultimately. "It" has always been there and will always be there, so what could "cause" even mean in relation to that?

FYI:

I'm describing my very own practice experience here. Yours may differ. I could be wrong, misguided, foolish, stupid or otherwise confused. I'm not an authority on anything but my own experience. I make no claims other than that I will post what really happens to me that I believe is practice related with no embellishment and nothing hidden.

"So, ultimately..... no time, no space, no me.

"

Absolutely.

"FYI:

I'm describing my very own practice experience here. Yours may differ. I could be wrong, misguided, foolish, stupid or otherwise confused. I'm not an authority on anything but my own experience. I make no claims other than that I will post what really happens to me that I believe is practice related with no embellishment and nothing hidden."

Oh, I totally get and appreciate that. The only reason I felt compelled to ask is because you are not the only one that has said something like that here and on DhO, and the "I am the universe, the universe is me" thing has been bugging me for some time. All my desktop pictures and screen savers are different Hubble shots, and I have been into astronomy for a long time, so "the universe" means something very precise and stupefyingly incredible to me. And, similarly, "no space, no time" says something...incongruous?...to me.

I have internalized the "we are all star stuff" message from the first time I heard Carl Sagan say it. But I too am on this journey to figure out how the "me" part of my star stuff fits in. Time will tell how that plays out, but your insights and observations continue to be a real inspiration.

Tomo, you have given me a "Aha!" moment and I thank you.

This is a problem with my use of language, methinks. Yes, the "universe" as I always thought of it, conventionally, is what we saw Carl Sagan describe in his "Cosmos" PBS series years ago. Though I have been using that term here I would have been better served to use the word *reality*. Substitute that word for the other word, and see how that sits with you.

Now, that doesn't change any of the meaning of what I said, at least in my mind, but it might make it more palatable and less confusing.

So I'm sorry. My language confused you, I think.

"I know I am going to regret this, but I need to wade into this because, every time I take out my telescope and look up...well...there is a whole lot of stuff going on quite nicely without me. I may be a "part" of it, and there may not even be a distinct "I", but this I-thing didn't cause it. The universe was there long before me, and will be there long after me. Furthermore, it is not a construct of my mind, because you can see it too and if I got hit by a car tomorrow, you would still see it.

Am I taking something too literally?
"

Except with consciousness the universe is not there as it presents to you. Colours, shapes, stars whatever is percieved or thought of does not and can not exist of itself. When others "see it", "it" is not a "thing". Every - "thing" must be only an appearence. The same is true of movement, space and time perception. When you look through your telescope there is a lot going on only as an appearence, and nothing can be said of reality except as it appears. No "thing" exists without consciousness, to consider something as existing after your gone only comes about by firstly attributing reality with some-thing where there is nothing.

"Except with consciousness the universe is not there as it presents to you. Colours, shapes, stars whatever is percieved or thought of does not and can not exist of itself. When others "see it", "it" is not a "thing". Every - "thing" must be only an appearence. The same is true of movement, space and time perception. When you look through your telescope there is a lot going on only as an appearence, and nothing can be said of reality except as it appears. No "thing" exists without consciousness, to consider something as existing after your gone only comes about by firstly attributing reality with some-thing where there is nothing.

"

Garyth:
I'm still trying to understand your POV. Are you saying that the universe exists in some sense, but , in the exact way we perceive it only exists in our own indiviual minds because our brain and senses construct an object's appearnce anew moment by moment?

I'm going to start a new thread based on Gary's comment. See ya there!

EDIT: Sorry, guys, but I sense that the discussion deserved its own thread as it is interesting and important on its own merit.

Just want to say -- I miss Haquan. I hope everything is okay, David, and that you reappear here soon.

"
Just want to say -- I miss Haquan. I hope everything is okay, David, and that you reappear here soon.

"

I was thinking exactly the same thing yesterday.

Flow.

It's real. There is a way all things work and flow, and if you can see that flow, feel that flow, know you are in that flow, then things seem so much more... livable? Not sure what the right word is. The flow is pretty much just another perspective on the Unity, the Oneness, of it all. I'm focusing on flow these days as I try to do integration work. I have this new thing happening that causes me me sit up, take notice and say, "Now what?" The "now what" is live by this, live in this, live as part of this, ALL THE TIME. This ain't easy. Suffering, in the Buddhist sense, is not seeing/feeling/being in the flow. Not suffering is being in, seeing, feeling the flow. Worst thing you can do? Ignore or fight the flow.

The only sensible answer to absolutely everything life sends your way, the good, the bad, the ugly, is "let's roll with that" or something very similar.

Also -- I've been thinking about self-image lately.

I used to think I was a thing, separate, alone, unique, with complete freedom from everything and everyone. I had the power. It was in my hands. There was, in my head, a big me and a little universe. Big me was responsible for everything, pretty much. That sounds amazing, to have the power, right? In practice it meant fear. It was nightmarish. I was afraid almost all the time, and fear drove many of the bigger life decisions I would make. I wouldn't have admitted that, and I might not even have known it consciously if you had asked me. But it was true. Absolutely true.

Today I see a woven tapestry of reality that doesn't really have much of a me sticking out of it. Yes, there is still a me sense, and a subjective experience. That, I suspect, never really goes away entirely. But in the gut, the intuition, there isn't a massive powerful singular separate always responsible me. I'm just not that, and it is a huge relief from the former burden. And the fear is almost entirely gone. Yet I still don't think I'm anywhere near being done. I'm not even sure there is such a thing.

But I am... content... in a way I would have thought impossible not very long ago. So, just to reiterate one more time, when someone says to you something on the order of, "I don't really know what good my practice does," feel free to ignore that, or maybe you should tell them they're full of it and just keep going, of course.

Thanks, again, Chris for sharing all this.
Flow: Krishnamurti used to talk about llife as a "movement," and, I think, like you, he felt to not be moving with it was to create suffering.
A work mate and I recently had a long talk about all this. Turns out he was a Zen/Krishnmurti enthusiast for years just like me.
However, unlike me, he'd concluded that it was all "too hard." That he thought it was possible to live "in the moment" but it was just, again, too hard.
I told him that it I thought it actually was impossible to freeze a moment and live in it but it was relatively easy to 'move with it' and thus exist in the moment.
I don't think he believed me.

"... he'd concluded that it was all "too hard." That he thought it was possible to live "in the moment" but it was just, again, too hard."

Your friend is right about it being difficult. It's very difficult. But the alternative is to be asleep. I sure as hell don't want to do that any more.

This is not an update

It's been very busy for me. Too much work and travel, too little formal practice. I resolve to change things this week. I notice that when I don't get to sit formally often enough there is a real world effect -- I start to feel distance between me a the dharma. The truth. This is not a comfortable feeling.

More notes on the effects of practice in the real world --

I seem to have less and less tolerance for stories and inaccuracies. I can't sit through or witness a situation and not address the root, the elephant in the room. I have not always been this way. I was, in the past, content to play along with the stories of others. There is a truth in every situation, and tuning in to that truth is the single most important thing you can do in that moment. To ignore that truth is to miss the real world, the actuality of experience... to live in a dream. Once the root is seen the next step is to address it in a way that does less harm than good. Sometimnes this means just shutting up until later. Sometimes it means speaking up quickly. It never seems to mean shouting or getting angry, but rather the skillful use of one's willingness to address those issues that others won't, can't, may or may not see.

This development is practice related, much like the idea of "flow" that I mentioned last week is practice related. So though I don't believe in the limited emotional range models of enlightenment, I do now see how realization clues one in to previously unseen phenomena that clearly direct one's attention, awareness and action in certain ways and not in others. This is another reason to practice with diligence and the faith that you can change your life thereby.

The last few days, especially today, I've been slammed back into a Dark Night-type mode. Everything sucks, stinks, aggravates, angers and just plain makes me want to crawl back into bed and stay there all day. It's nice to kow what this is but it's really challenging to keep it outside and not take it as I/me/mine and literally piss everyone around me off. Past such episodes have lasted anywhere from days to weeks. I have a lot of travel coming up next week and the week after so I hope this cycle ends by, oh, Monday. Another exacerbating problem: the lack of time to sit and meditate. Meditation does seem to help keep the edge off these things. Damn. Just when I thought it was safe to go back in the water.

Since about 6 PM yesterday an extreme form of lightheadedness has overtaken me. In the past this has meant jhana development. So... later today I will sit and see if a new one shows up. I'm kind of surprised it didn't happen last night as that's usually when these things occur. We'll see!

Still walking around light headed....

Eleven.

Unable to practice much at all due to work obligations and a horrendous travel schedule. This is making me long for the cushion. It induces a guilty feeling and a subtle underlying anxiety.