awouldbehipster's practice notes (part two)

There is something being lengthened all the same, maybe not the fruition itself, but something which is either pre or post. I think I might be confusing myself as I sit here and try to resolve to stay in the fruition. Sometimes it feels like the prefruition state, right just before the fruition occurs, is lengthened too. Or is it after the fruition as well?

I feel a "clenching" sensation just below the crown as a frution is about to occur. A tensing of something physical there...and it stays clenched/tensed until the resolution time is up. Somewhere within the time it is tensed/clenched a fruition occurs and then it releases and the after glow comes a number of seconds after and the mind comes back online slowly....I think I need to experiment with this to be clearer. Fun! fun!

"Just curious, what is your motivation for working on this? "

Edited to include....oops this was not meant for me....sorry!

To be able to do it. I know, I know.....we all just want to be awake. But can't I have a little fun too?

Chris already gave me the lecture. .....if you were thinking about giving me a lecture...hehe!

No lecture intended for you or Jackson. Just curious!

"Just curious, what is your motivation for working on this? "

It's beneficial for myself and others, and it's fun. Why not work on it?

"No lecture intended for you or Jackson. Just curious! "

Hehe! No worries.

I have read it bit.ly/92id9d that Mahasi gave advice on what to do to progress to the higher paths. He said one should develop the ability to dwell in the frution for whatever period of time you resolve. I know that one really doesn't have to do that because progress is still occuring without me doing that but a part of my brain keeps reminding me that i can't so I want to know why and if I can remedy that. It's one of my personality traits. Overly curious!

"It's beneficial for myself and others, and it's fun. Why not work on it?"

What do you think the benefits are?

"What do you think the benefits are?"

In short, happiness. I prefer happiness over unhappiness. I treat others better when I am happy, and others treat me better when they are happy.

The better I get to know this process, the happier I become, and the more I am able to help others increase their happiness. It's a win-win situation, if there ever was one

So you mean happiness directly from the nature of the experience itself, right?

How would you compare / contrast the happiness derived from fruition vs that derived from material, immaterial, and pureland jhanas? Do you experience a kind of happiness from fruition that is different from / preferable to the different kinds of happiness derived from the different levels of jhanas?

"So you mean happiness directly from the nature of the experience itself, right?

How would you compare / contrast the happiness derived from fruition vs that derived from material, immaterial, and pureland jhanas? Do you experience a kind of happiness from fruition that is different from / preferable to the different kinds of happiness derived from the different levels of jhanas? "

The bliss waves throughout the body and mind are pretty cool. When I am feeling quite tired and cloudy, calling up a fruition and experiencing the subsequent blissful vibrations really do help snap you out of such states.

When I try and resolve to stay in the fruition, that doesn't happen, but Ive described what does in another post here, the blisswaves seems much more prolonged and ..well, more blissful. It is great when you are lying in bed and you've just woken up, a few blisswave hits and you are as right as rain and ready to start the day.

My pure abode experiences, or what I think to be such experiences are limited and I will refrain from calling them that yet, but I prefer the fruition bliss. This is subject to change once I really do feel I am experiencing something like a pure abode...but yeh, don't underestimate the power of a fruition. Hehe! Especially multiple ones , one after the other. Although, having them occur all night makes the body unbelievably subtle and vibey. I would prefer to mess around with the frutions than dwell in jhanas at the moment. Plus the fruitions that I get by focusing on the ball of pressure behind my third eye give a bliss hit which is much bigger and really fullbody and leaves you really blissed out.

"Chris already gave me the lecture. "

Well, not the same lecture, but guilty as charged. And my view has changed a bit since a few weeks ago. I hereby encourage you to play. It's allowed under the Great Intergalactic Constitution for All Sentient Beings.

"Hi Alex,

Thanks for the insightful comment. Nimittas ('signs' or 'replicas') are an interesting phenomenon, as I know that they don't appear to everyone in the same way, and even vary by the object used for concentration. When focusing on the anapana spot, the nimittas ('learning sign' and 'counterpart sign' appear more as a presence than an object of light. Though, with the arising of the counterpart sign, the visual field does become much brighter. The only time I get an object of light as a nimitta is when I use consciousness as the object. A small, bright orb of changing colors will arise and then fade off into the distance... unless I grab on to it. If I hold it with my attention, it grows in size and intensity, and I am soon after transported into first jhana. Interesting, eh?
"

Thanks Jackson. Very interesting indeed!

I missed part of the discussion that followed due to the time difference between Europe and the US, but gave it a try last night. Following your suggestions, I tried to concentrate of the presence -or feeling of energy- felt at the anapana spot. Taking this 'etheric' nimitta as a new object of concentration, I soon got a stable light nimitta appearing before me. Focusing on the bright orb, it suddenly started growing bigger and bigger, enveloping me completely in its bright ecstatic golden light. And there I was in a solid first jhana.

Checking Ajahn Brahm's handbook this morning (nothing better than a jhana junkie when it comes to this kind of stuff), I realize that he also suggests using mental sensations (vedana) as a nimitta. Describing to entrance doors into solid jhanas, he does mention both: being pulled in, or getting enveloped by the nimitta.

I had assumed that one needed to spend weeks in solitary retreats to get into such solid jhanas, but busy laymen like us seem to be able to gradually master these amazing techniques.

"... (nothing better than a jhana junkie when it comes to this kind of stuff)...

...I had assumed that one needed to spend weeks in solitary retreats to get into such solid jhanas, but busy laymen like us seem to be able to gradually master these amazing techniques...."

I have to say, I don't understand the interest in jhana. It seems like playing with fire, to me. But maybe that's just because I'm not enlightened / fearful of getting addicted to the pleasure of it / desirous of the pleasure of it.

I've hardly ever practiced in order to attain jhana, and so it's one of the most murkiest, most curiosity-inducing, and most mysterious parts of the path for me.

continued from above...

What are the arguments for practicing in order to cultivate jhana?

How in the world does one know a jhanic state from a mundane sensation of rapture or bliss or equanimity or space?

For example, I can call up a slight version of rapture at will, but does this mean I'm calling up a jhana?

Sometimes I hope so, but most of the time I hope not. The whole matter is very foggy to me. Maybe best discussed on another thread? I don't wish to clog this one up with my personal queries.

Hey Ryan,

I am not sure if you were directing your question specifically at Jackson or not. Nevertheless... Kenneth has written an excellent description of Jhanas. I find it a lot more accessible than some of the more complicated models out there... I would say don't worry too much about it pre-path... because post SE you will have access to at least the first 4 jhanas... you will naturally run into momentary concentration while doing vipassana... Don't hope that you are not calling up a concentration state that will just generate needless aversion. When pleasure born of concentration arises try to greet it with equanimity just like anything else... Best of luck...

"
What are the arguments for practicing in order to cultivate jhana?
"

What arguments?

Maybe because the Buddha discovered the jhanas, taught them and practiced them throughout his life, even on his death bed. Maybe because they are the last part of the Noble Eightfold Path. Maybe because exiting a jhanas temporarily removes the 5 hindrances, which happens to be a conditions for deep insight according to the Satipatthana Sutta.

"Natthi jhanam apannassa
panna natthi ajhayato
yamhi jhananca panna ca
sa ve nibbanasantike."

"There is no jhana without wisdom
There is no wisdom without jhana
But for one with both jhana and wisdom
They are in the presence of Nibbana"

Dhammapada (Verse 372)

Just kidding, meditation kills!

Yeah, my question wasn't directed to Jackson specifically. Thank you, Clayton, for your reply. What you say makes a lot of sense. : )

(continued from above)

As Clayton said, getting first path does tend to give one access to at least the first four jhanas. It's almost like beating the last boss of an old school video game, in which new levels or cheats are unblocked and can be used the next time through the game. So if you want to wait to practice jhana until after you get stream entry, that's cool. But I don't think there's any reason to be afraid of jhana addiction. Last I checked, jhana was not listed in the DSM as substance one may become dependent on... jhana abuse, however, is another story

~Jackson

EDIT: Spelling.

"continued from above...

What are the arguments for practicing in order to cultivate jhana?

How in the world does one know a jhanic state from a mundane sensation of rapture or bliss or equanimity or space?

For example, I can call up a slight version of rapture at will, but does this mean I'm calling up a jhana?

Sometimes I hope so, but most of the time I hope not. The whole matter is very foggy to me. Maybe best discussed on another thread? I don't wish to clog this one up with my personal queries.
"

Hi Ryan,

Those are good questions. I'm glad that Clayton and Alex chimed in with some good answers.

Why cultivate jhana? Because strong concentration is a help, not a hindrance, to the practice of insight meditation. Because, as Alex pointed out, attaining jhana temporarily suppresses the Five Hindrances, helping one to see things more clearly in life and in practice. Because being able to rest your mind in jhana during difficult times is a blessing. And, because it's fun.

How does one know that they're in a jhanic state as opposed to some other experience? There are quite a few books written by jhana masters that describe the process of attaining jhana very clearly. Pa Auk Sayadaw is a favorite of many, and Ajahn Brahm does a great job as well. Personally, I like Henepola Gunaratana. His short book "The Jhanas: In Theravada Buddhist Meditation" is available in full online at Access To Insight - bit.ly/4oo4Ra

Calling up rapture, like one experiences in the A&P, is not the same as jhana. Just to be clear.

And personally, I don't see how a Westerner with a bias toward vipassana could possibly become a jhana junky. If you want to practice jhana, there's no reason not to.

(continued below)

Cool. Thanks for your replies, Alex and Jackson. I appreciate the clarity and dash of humor, in particular.

This podcast from Vince Horn with Ken Wilber has been a good listen today. I recommend it.

personallifemedia.com/podcasts/236-buddh...zontal-vertical/play

"Cool. Thanks for your replies, Alex and Jackson. I appreciate the clarity and dash of humor, in particular.

This podcast from Vince Horn with Ken Wilber has been a good listen today. I recommend it.

personallifemedia.com/podcasts/236-buddh...zontal-vertical/play
"

Yes, that's a good one. I've listened to it many times on the way to and from work. What would I do without my iPod and Buddhist Geeks?

Practice has been interesting lately. Although I'm slowly refining some of my concentration skills, I feel like I'm mostly at a plateau stage of practice. It's difficult to not become impatient, even though I know it isn't a race. "Constancy, not heroics," is what Kenneth always says, and I think he's right. So, perhaps my goal in practice for this point in time is to simply continue on. Keep making time for regular practice. Keep utilizing the three speeds. Keep inquiring into ways to improve, while not neglecting the fundamentals that got me where I am today.

I find myself speculating a lot about where practice will lead in the future. This activity is of limited value. There's nothing wrong with speculating, so long as it doesn't become a priority over other, more useful activities.

In contrast, while lying in bed last night before falling asleep, I rested in my own innate natural wakefulness, and realized once again that I am not other than 'that' which I seek.

Walking on...

Jackson thanks, your posts are very interesting and inspiring.

May I ask where you think you are according to the Theravada four paths model?

"Jackson thanks, your posts are very interesting and inspiring.

May I ask where you think you are according to the Theravada four paths model?"

Excellent question, yadidb, and I hope to answer it truthfully and humbly.

I choose not to go by the traditional Theravada model based on the "fetters," just to make that clear.

According to a more revised four path model, as taught by folks like Ingram and our very own Kenneth Folk, I'm at least a sakadagami (2nd path), but potentially an anagami (3rd path), depending on the criteria. Being that I can access Suddhavasa jhanas, as well as nirodha samapatti (on occasion), that puts me in 3rd path territory. And some of my dharma buddies who are playing at a similar level as myself (if not the same the exact same level, as it so often seems) also consider themselves as likely to be anagamis. So yeah...

I could be wrong. Time will tell.

~Jackson

Jackson is quite clearly third path/anagami. He's just being carefully conservative when he infers otherwise

"This podcast from Vince Horn with Ken Wilber has been a good listen today. I recommend it.

personallifemedia.com/podcasts/236-buddh...zontal-vertical/play
"

Thanks Ryan I hadn't listened to this interview. Solid.