Records of a Reclus

Ian, for the stuff in your second post today, I recently also felt all of that stuff on retreat, the exact same worries and obsessions. I apologize for asking a really basic and obvious question and saying the same thing in two posts, but are you noting that stuff? By that stuff I mean the concern about where you are and the reaction to it, the impression of blockages and the reaction to that, the impression of meditating incorrectly and the reaction to that, the desire to do more focused meditation and the reaction to that, etc... All of this unpleasant, uncontrollable, distracting mental stuff is great fodder for noting. The "see how it" formula is great for that, as are the things I mentioned in my last post (pleasant, unpleasant, or if it works for you, craving and aversion or the three characteristics, if you can detect a specific characteristic at a given moment). When I started doing that consistently is when I started really buying into Kenneth's disembedding theory. I was using a more flexible and less focused noting format on retreat, but any way that you have within the instructions you've been given to note your emotional reactions to things that seem like hindrances to meditation is probably correct meditation.

Also, are the mental states that underlie the apparent distraction more expansive than usual? How about the area of concentration on the rising and falling? When you go back to rising and falling after being distracted by an obsessive or distracting thought, are you going back to a specific narrow focus?

Actually, sorry, scratch the 3C advice I mentioned. My understanding of the technique has some holes in it.

Hey Jigme,

Thanks for all the advice. When it comes to "noting that stuff", I think I am but I also think I'm missing some parts of it (clearly still embedded there, eh?). The passage you linked to from "Practical Insight Meditation" was really helpful in pointing something out in this regard. I've been seeing objects arise and pass away, but I was still identifying with the consciousness that was aware of their movement away. I wasn't aware that the consciousness that watches their movement passes away as well, but I can see this happen now when I turn my attention to it.

I've also been experiencing weird moments where my whole field of experience kind of skips, for lack of a better word. Like when there's a scratch in a DVD and the movie keeps playing but the visuals are stuck and then jump ahead. This seems to match the book's description as well. The sleep problems though are probably mostly due to the fact that I've been getting up at 4:30 in the mornings to sit (and do chi kung, and exercise, though I rarely make it through the whole plan). I let myself sleep 8 hours last night and my energy levels are back up.

Perhaps I am in the dukkha nanas. I certainly had something explosive happen last Friday. Thanks again for all the reminders! As I said above, I can hear advice many times, but its only good when I can attach it to my own experience (as you've done here).

(cont)

In regards to the underlying mental states, I'm not too sure what you mean by expansive. Do you mean the awareness? I do seem to have a wider "net" of awareness than before; its much easier to watch multiple things (breath, thoughts, images) going on at the same time, though I have a problem with noting when there's many things happening at once. When that happens, I've been keeping in mind that Mahasi quote that Mike posted here: "In vipassana meditation what you name or say doesn't matter. What really matters is to know or perceive."

As for the rising and falling, I'm focused on that in my abdomen, and ever since whatever happened on Friday, I'll get a warm bliss that comes spreads out from the center of my area of focus. I've been focusing on the breath there for nearly two years, and this is the first time I've had that bliss come up pretty much immediately. Whatever it is, it's nice.

I can keep that narrow area of focus on the abdomen and open up the awareness "net" pretty wide at the same time. This doesn't happen all the time, but it is my current definition of a "good" sit.

Thanks again for all the feedback. It is really really helpful.

Okay, here is my experience/opinon on noting technique as it relates to some of what you are saying: it's impossible for me to decide ahead of time how I'm going to note, what I'm going to note, or what level of detail or speed the noting will have, especially if I'm basing this decision on some previous sitting.
That's just bringing too much thinking/reflecting into the practice.
"there's no time to think about it"
For me, I just note what comes up as it comes up and sometimes that is relatively shallow and slow with a lot of stuff missed and sometimes it is fast and detailed with the mental snapshot of the object perceived right along with the object -- and anything in between.
But, I guess my point is, the qualities of the noting can't be predicted or controlled, you just have to jump in and do it knowing it will be different everytime, and knowing that as long as you are steadily noting with whatever quality that things WILL happen at their own speed.

hi Mike,

This is helpful as well. It's like a koan, of sorts. You can't plan what to note, but make sure you're not forgetting to note any thing.

Between you and Jigme, I think I've got myself a great middle path. There are now some things that I know to note that I did not consider noting before, but I also don't have to worry about whether I actually get around to noting them. Thanks guys, it's good to have you both here.

(edited for grammar)

"hi Mike,

This is helpful as well. It's like a koan, of sorts. You can't plan what to note, but make sure you're not forgetting to any thing.

Between you and Jigme, I think I've got myself a great middle path. There are now some things that I know to note that I did consider noting before, but I also don't have to worry about whether I actually get around to noting them. Thanks guys, it's good to have you both here."

Good I was hoping that I didn't make it more complicated.
The thing is, it is really simple -- just note what comes up. That''s it. Steadily, calmly without over thinking it.


But, when you do that and look back at it, sometimes it seems so much "better" or "worse" or more effective or more productive than others times and we want to make sure we do it in the way the creates the "better" noting sits. However, I just don't think we can, all we can do it is note and realize the sits will have a different quality each time.
For example, over the past several months I've had sits in which my noting was so quick and refined and steady and detailed that I was in this amazing state of high equanimity with feellings of bliss all over the edges and, I've had sits in which all I could do was note "pain," and "unpleasant" over and over. Was one sit really more productive to my actual practice than the other? No. Can I somehow control which kind of sit I will have? NO.

I concur with Mike!

Whatever takes centre stage is what should be noted, and if there is some sort of slight aversion to what you are noting, then start noting what has now taken centre stage; that "aversion". Then you have a thought that "I should be noting something else", then start noting that very same "thought" which has arisen. Then you get confused about what you should be noting, then note "confusion" or "searching" or "dissatisfaction" or whatever. Then the mind gets pulled to sensations vibrating at your chest and thus you note "vibrations, unpleasant" etc. And so on and so on.

My point being, one should note WHATEVER takes CENTRESTAGE! And if something takes centre stage for more time than something else, doesn't matter, you keep noting it until something else takes its place. And thus with this momentum, layer upon layer of identification with phenomena is peeled back, until no more to peel back and ...POP!

Looking at, NOT looking for! If you look for, you are kind of setting up a mindset where you "need" to experience certain phenomena, and if it isn't experienced then the tendency is to get frustrated. The sticky "I" is sticking to things and when it does that dukkha is on its heels. But if you just note whatever is there without craving or aversion for something (if these arise as mind states they should be noted too), and you do this by looking at, then you are making the "I" less and less sticky. That can only be a good thing. Trust me!

Edited to include: The end result is really being happy in heaven and happy in hell. The great thing about this is that you don't have to wait until Arhatship to experience it. Note in heaven and in hell and the ride will be a quicker one.

Hey Nick, thanks for chiming in! I love "looking at, not looking for". I think I was allowing my sense of "centerstage" to believe it was being pulled around, when it really can't be pulled around. That sticky I sure is a sneaky little fellow. Just gotta remember, if it's getting pulled around, it's not (CAN'T be) center stage.

Just got back from an hour long sit (ate my lunch at my desk and spent my lunch hour in the stairwell!). Mike's and Jigme's advice really helped me get into things. There was just a lot of freeform noting, mostly in the "see how it" mode. The "see how it" eventually pushed me outwards so that I could really see "it" doing things, to the point where I realized that the "it" that thinks its acting on things is really just another thing moving around with all the others!

That centerstage advice really rings clear to me right now. Will be back at it first thing tomorrow morning! Thanks again guys, I am really really loving being here right now. I can't stop smiling.

(edited for typos)

If getting pulled around means the attention just naturally falls on whatever phenomenon that presents itself to the centre stage of the mind, then note that phenomenon. If getting pulled around means you are looking FOR, then you could just note that as "searching", "looking for". So even what you might want to avoid, which is the "looking for", can become fuel for your rocket ship to awakening. The idea of "being pulled" somewhere can mean either intentional or unintentional, I reckon, so could be confusing. I think "looking for" versus "looking at" are what one needs to know they are doing or not. Yes, the sticky "I". It's amazing how things are when it just doesn't stick.

"The "see how it" eventually pushed me outwards so that I could really see "it" doing things, to the point where I realized that the "it" that thinks its acting on things is really just another thing moving around with all the others!
"


And you keep peeling back the layers.....POP!

"If getting pulled around means you are looking FOR, then you could just note that as "searching", "looking for". "

Yeah, that's it. I think it's like, I'm trying to hold onto something or looking for something, while something ELSE is taking center stage. Better to let the first thing pass away and just note the thing under the spot light. It really is all fuel for that rocket ship.

Then one of these days, that "POP!" will take centerstage! : )

"Yeah, that's it. I think it's like, I'm trying to hold onto something or looking for something, while something ELSE is taking center stage. Better to let the first thing pass away and just note the thing under the spot light. It really is all fuel for that rocket ship.

Then one of these days, that "POP!" will take centerstage! : )"

Exactly, so just to clarify....if the attention falls on sensations somewhere for example and you start noting them, but those sensations, being impermanent, may disappear and then you find that you don't know what to note next...well, THAT is what you need to note..those thoughts of "I don't know what to note" or "confusion" or "searching" or "looking for something else to note". That very moment where you are searching for something to note can actually be noted itself. EVERYTHING can be noted...all mind states including the sublest ones which dupe us into thinking we aren't noting what we should be noting. Those doubts and thoughts themselves should be noted too. Nice! Keep on swinging on the rope, Ian!

and what can be fascinating (but won't always happen of course) is that in between the thing disappearing and you realizing there is nothing to note, all kinds of little sensations, and thoughts and images or whatever can be happening.

Thanks guys, welcome and helpful reminders that the baseline assumption is "there IS something going on here, what is it?"

Off to sit now, another hour long sit.

OK, I'm back.

Noted the breath until i felt some stability, then let my awareness drift to see what would take center stage. Started with tension, pain, judging, watching, bystanding, withholding over and over. Hit a few spots of fear and anxiety, more judging, controlling. At a certain point they got stronger and I could feel them kind of coming up from a center point around my diaphragm. There was a feeling falling down into that centerpoint area, it was very strange, hard to describe.

Then things kind of opened up and I suddenly felt way more expansive (I see what you meant earlier, Jigme!). Started noting peacful, open, tingling, fluttering, vibrations. These were more open feelings, sort of bodywide and perhaps outside the body. Then I was drawn to the feeling of tension, grasping, contraction, and clenching in my lower abdomen. There seemed to be a specific label that was needed each time a sensation arose in that area, I could almost pull the correct label from the sensation itself. And as I noted that label, the feeling would open up and release in a wave a bliss. It was as if a knot of chronic muscle cramp had released.

After two or three of these, I seemed to hit some kind of floor, a steady flat hardness. I tried noting it, but noting changed and I'd eventually be drawn to "boredom" "watching" "frustration" and then back to the breath for a bit. There was maybe only a slight unpleasantness to that feeling of flatness though, whereas the previous contractions were all unpleasant (though all of this was kind of wrapped in an expansive openness).

(cont)

I was also drawn to note this chronic tension I have in my upper right chest area (a problem during meditation for a year and half now), to which the label "cramping" seemed appropriate. At this point, I don't expect that chronic tension to leave any time soon, though it has lessened through the many months,

I ended the sit alternating between "frustration" "watching" "judging" and "joy" "openness" "fluctuations". Walking back downstairs, I noticed myself grasping after the maps again. "was that entry into equanimity?" and trying to grasp at my progress and test it. To which I noted "sabotaging" and it died down. : )

I was at a retreat recently at the Zen Mountain Monastery that was being run by Malidoma Some, an African shaman in the Dagara tradition. One thing he said that 's stayed with me very deeply (and totally applies here, I think) is that the English language in particular is one of doubt and testing. There's something about our language, or maybe just the way we use it, that sort of automatically looks for flaws in things, that tests things and breaks them down in order to understand them.

Whether this is true of the English language or not, it does point to a string tendency I've noticed in myself, one of always doubting in order to get to the "truth". This seems to have the unfortunate side-effect of undermining the unfolding of any natural developmental process (such as the insight stages). And to this, I note "sabotaging!"

What Could It Be, It's all a Mirage
You're Scheming On A Thing That's Sabotage!

'So as long as the mind is comparing, there is no love, and the mind is always judging, comparing, weighing, looking to find where the weakness is. So where there is comparison, there is no love. When the mother and father love their children, they do not compare them, they do not compare their child with another child; it is their child and they love their child. But you want to compare yourself with something better, with something nobler, with something richer, so you create in yourself a lack of love. You are always concerned with yourself in relationship to somebody else. As the mind becomes more and more comparative, more and more possessive, more and more depending, it creates a pattern in which it gets caught, so it cannot look at anything anew, afresh.

And so it destroys that very thing, that very perfume of life, which is love.'

'” J. Krishnamurti, excerpt from a conversation with students at Rajghat School, December 19, 1952

Hi Ian,

Some brief observations...

"At a certain point they got stronger and I could feel them kind of coming up from a center point around my diaphragm. There was a feeling falling down into that centerpoint area, it was very strange, hard to describe... Then things kind of opened up and I suddenly felt way more expansive [...]. Started noting peacful, open, tingling, fluttering, vibrations. These were more open feelings, sort of bodywide and perhaps outside the body."

The first part of this sounds like a shift into the first ñana: Mind & Body. This would explain why things opened up/expanded afterward. I'd like to know what happened before the next thing you described, which was...

"Then I was drawn to the feeling of tension, grasping, contraction, and clenching in my lower abdomen. There seemed to be a specific label that was needed each time a sensation arose in that area, I could almost pull the correct label from the sensation itself. And as I noted that label, the feeling would open up and release in a wave a bliss. It was as if a knot of chronic muscle cramp had released."

This sounds a bit like 2nd and 3rd ñana territory. The hardened sensations are very 3rd ñana ("Three Characteristics").

"After two or three of these, I seemed to hit some kind of floor, a steady flat hardness. I tried noting it, but noting changed and I'd eventually be drawn to "boredom" "watching" "frustration" and then back to the breath for a bit. There was maybe only a slight unpleasantness to that feeling of flatness though, whereas the previous contractions were all unpleasant (though all of this was kind of wrapped in an expansive openness)."

(continued below)

So, it sounds to me like you got stuck at 3rd ñana, which is a common road block when one first starts trying to get familiar with this teritory. I tend to get stuck here during fresh insight cycles that I haven't been paying good attention to.

My advice? You can try two things. First, you can just continue to note pretty quickly (at least one note per second) of any changing phenomena you can find. The rise and fall of the abdomen is my favorite place to re-gather my attention when I get stuck. This tends to speed things up, and pushes me over the A&P hill.

The other thing you can try is less conventional from a Mahasi Sayadaw point of view. You can actually change your breath in order to make it more pleasurable. Trying breathing in long and out long, breathing in short and out short, breathing in long and out short, breathing in short and out long, etc, etc. When you find a way of breathing that really energizes the body and brings a sense of refershment, the whole body will tingle. Pay attention to the tingles, and allow yourself to enjoy them as they pass - much like Champagne bubbles. This may be enough to speed things up to the point of getting you out of the 3rd ñana rut. It works for me.

I may in fact be mis-dianosing you, so take anything I say with a grain of salt. I'm excited to read future posts!

~Jackson

"I may in fact be mis-dianosing you, so take anything I say with a grain of salt"

No worries, Jackson, I welcome any and all advice! : )

In response to your first question, I don't believe there was anything noticeable between the expansive openness and the noticing of the hardened sensations. The sensations seemed to arise into the open awareness and my attention drifted to them and began noting. At least, that's how I remember it.

As for the advice, it seems that both are sort of a powering up kind of thing. Either note quickly or breathe quickly. I'll go give this a shot in a little bit and report back.

Also, I'm taking a flight out to Seattle tonight (any Seattle KFDers out there?) and so will be leaving work early to go finish packing. Probably won't be back on here until early next week. Hope ya'll enjoy the weekend!

"As for the advice, it seems that both are sort of a powering up kind of thing. Either note quickly or breathe quickly. I'll go give this a shot in a little bit and report back." ~Ian

Yes on the noting quickly. The breathing technique isn't so much about breathing "quickly" so much as it is about finding a way of breathing that results in feeling refreshed, alert, and happy. This could very well be deep, slow breathing, as well as shallow, quick breathing. It takes some experimentation to find what works best for you, and it could very well change each time you sit.

Have a good trip! Seattle is a 3 or 4 hour drive from where I live, so I doubt I'll be seeing you around town

~Jackson

So, to report back...

Started out trying to settle into concentration, got into the sort of unpleasant feelings again,"judging" "tension" "seeking" "withholding", very down on myself (though as the noter, I was surprised to see how little that actually mattered to "me"). Then another kind of "tension" "rushing" and sudden burst of anxiety that left me panting and I was back into that spaciousness of yesterday. Again the feeling of "grasping" and "clenching" arose in that space, and I noted it until it faded (just faded, not into a bliss wave like yesterday).

Then I tried noting faster, keeping up a constant stream of notes, repeating when necessary. More tension, shaking, and then another burst of anxiety, within the spaciousness this time. This was followed by lots of vibrations and fairly regular physical shaking, "tensiontensiontensiontensiontension" "graspinggraspinggraspinggraspinggrasping" with occasional "experiencing" when I had sudden bursts of really really inhabiting my experience. A few moments of "I have to get out of here!" and lots of heavy breathing.

It seemed to kind of plateau out into a level intensity just as my alarm was about to go off, but I've had fairly good luck with my inner "progress" syncing up with my outer circumstances before, so I don't think I should pay too much attention to that plateau moment.

Walking back downstairs, I noticed the feeling of a bright empty spot resting up and back from the roof of my mouth. Its still there when I check. After noticing it is stairwell and watching it, my awareness suddenly expanded and I could feel the stairwell as a whole sort of slipping through my awareness, kind of like the feeling of water moving around you when you're swimming....

And with that, peace out yall!

Alright, back from vacation and all caught up at work. Here's my notes from the first part of last week and the past few days.

7/17:

A very frustrating sit. Started noting with body sensations, lots of "tightness" and "congestion" (of the energetic type, rather than the snotty type) in the chest, the feeling of two spears being thrust in under the collar bones and through the back ribs. Continued with the body for a while, then got more emotional/psychological: "anger" "frustration" "saddness" "judging" "thinking" "worrying". Then there was the sense of defending those feelings, as if part of me wanted to feel them. Very strange. I could feel these moods moving through me, like familiar bodily poses. I recognized them as the rose up and was surprised by often I feel them without being aware of them. Then I slipped back into body awareness, "tension" "pain" "blocking". My feet were asleep when I got up. This hasn't happened in a while.

Overall feeling was one of shallowness, restlessness, as if I were dry dust being blown around, or a fish attempting to swim in a trickle of water.

7/18:

Began with lots of "pressure" "tension" "pain". Very body based. Switched to "pleasant/unpleasant/neutral" but everything that came up was unpleasant. Noted "bored" after a short while. Then another play-though of emotions, watching depression, judgement, and scenarios of my behavior and its effects on others played through my mind (noted "watching" or "thinking" as it felt similar to thought). I didn't record the specifics, and I can't remember them now, so they must have bothered me. Then dropped into "rising/falling" and felt little flickers of things going on all over but nothing sharp enough. Kept noting rising/falling along with "flickers" "thinking" "tingling". Body based, but more neutral than before. Again, ended with my feet asleep.