Monson notes III

"The milestone for me was access to NS and the pure land jhanas. If you can reliably get into those, you are an anagami. My suggestion would be to try a sit and follow along with Kenneth's tour of the jhanas with Nick or with one of the Hamilton project podcasts. The NS variety hour has some pretty detailed instructions on how to access it. One of the reasons we put these up was as a path diagnostic tool. I'd be really excited and curious to see if would work for you.
Metta,
-o
"

ok, but what about those who say that samantha jhana abilities are NOT necessary for progression through the paths?
I know that that at least used to be the common wisdom. The idea is that if one has facilty with samantha that path progression allows them access to the upper "strata," right? But, practicing samatha in any way isn't supposed to be a requirement for first, second, third, fourth path.
I was talking to an arahant the other day who told me samantha wasn't a requirement.
I am working on samantha and hope to be able to do what you Hamilton project guys do someday, but it just isn't something I so far spend a lot of time and energy on. it comes and goes for me. I'm still fascinated by vipassana practice on and off the cushion.

"ok, but what about those who say that samantha jhana abilities are NOT necessary for progression through the paths?
I know that that at least used to be the common wisdom. The idea is that if one has facilty with samantha that path progression allows them access to the upper "strata," right? But, practicing samatha in any way isn't supposed to be a requirement for first, second, third, fourth path.
I was talking to an arahant the other day who told me samantha wasn't a requirement.
I am working on samantha and hope to be able to do what you Hamilton project guys do someday, but it just isn't something I so far spend a lot of time and energy on. it comes and goes for me. I'm still fascinated by vipassana practice on and off the cushion."

So yeah, it depends on what you mean by samatha. If you are talking about taking it to the degree of "10 stages of meditation" classic kind of Tibetan system samatha, then no, you don't need anything like that to access jhana. Pa auk sayadaw's system is dead wrong saying that level of concentration is a requirement for vipassana to take you through the stages of insight and the paths.

My current concentration practice is something I'm working on as sort of a side project after 4th path, but I don't want to give the impression that it is needed to hit NS or the pure land jhanas.

The samatha/vipassana jhana dichotomy is a misnomer, samatha and vipassana are simply techniques to access the various strata of mind. Everything I got access to through 4th path was by generating enough samadhi via the breath counting samatha practice to still the mind to the point where getting one clear note per second was possible.

(cont)

Both samatha and vipassana will generate samadhi. The type of samadhi generated via the vipassana technique is called khanikha samadhi. You can get it done with just khanikha samadhi. You can penetrate every layer of mind via khanikha samadhi.

So, working with Kenneth my basic strategy was basically this:

1. Use breath counting (samatha practice) to generate enough samadhi to be able to clearly transition into vipassana.

2. Keep up with one clear note (or more) per second of the sensations arising in my awareness. The longer I did this, the more layers were revealed. Some of those layers are stable (jhana) the rest are nanas.

3. Once I hit second path, I latched onto the sensation of the witness as shown in the 6th jhana, and kept noticing during the day how that sense was consitent thoughout all my experience.

4. Once I hit third path, I noticed I had access to all the Jhanas and NS. The trip then was to tune into the sense of what was remaining to do, all the subtle dukkha that was left. I also needed to give myself permission to get it done, and get clear that I'd suffered enough and was worthy of it.


Sorry that was kind of a long thing, and you probably know most of it anyway, I just wanted to get that all out in one place.

EDIT (changed annica samadhi to the proper khanikha samadhi)

I found that really clear and helpful, Owen.

thanks owen
I have lots of annica samadhi. no doubt on that.
you say things like "once I hit second path" and "once I hit third path" ---- "i then noticed ...."
my question is how do you know WHEN you hit the paths? sure, you can talk about certain abilities coming AFTER hitting the paths but what was the clue you'd hit the paths?
Plus, is accessing strata of mind the only thing that connotes the various paths?
I know I hit first path because I got fruitions and a great sense of freedom and lack of friction. there was no doubt something significant had happened.
And, I think I hit second and maybe third because the nature of the frutions were different and my suffering decreased again.
But, unlike a lot of my friends here, I don't have that ability to I.D. all the strata of mind I am in and out of. Im pretty sure of when I am in equanimity and I sometimes know when I hit "disgust" because I get creepy images, and I know what fruitions are like.
But that is it.
Maybe at this point my practice is a bit lopsided towards being able to "synch up" really easily and I need to develop this "travelling up and down the jhanic arc" ability.
Unfortanately all that doesn't seem to be really interesting to me -- at least not yet.
I just want to really get the 3 Cs and stop suffering and then get on with life and keep practicing in whatever way seems best. -- and, I know that that looks a lot different from what you and a lot of others are doing with all the jhanic development and NS and powers, etc.
Oh, and I'm very happy with where I am at and really enjoying this practice.

"thanks owen
I have lots of annica samadhi. no doubt on that.
you say things like "once I hit second path" and "once I hit third path" ---- "i then noticed ...."
my question is how do you know WHEN you hit the paths? sure, you can talk about certain abilities coming AFTER hitting the paths but what was the clue you'd hit the paths?
Plus, is accessing strata of mind the only thing that connotes the various paths?
"

Path diagnosis is non-trivial, and usually in retrospect. For me, I became convinced of 1st path after a long conversation with Kenneth and going over my retreat history with him. I was aware after sesshin that I'd done something, and my mind just would not behave like it used to.

2nd path was clear after a series of hard and intense fruitions. My old thread "Out of the long dark night" details most of it.

for 3rd, it was being able to get into NS and the PL jhanas. Since only anagamis can do that, by definition I was then an anagami. Exactly when the transition happened, I'm not sure. With 3rd it was more gradual.

4th... yeah for 4th is was totally obvious. I knew I was done and insight disease was over. Suffering didn't have anything to grab onto.

All that being said, there are some things that you might notice when you hit a path. (at least 1-3, 4th is different)

1. Deeper feeling to fruitions.
2. Feeling of an energetic shift in the body. Like a channel gets cleared up. This was my clue for 3rd path since 2nd was all about energy and emotional material.
3. New review cycle. It feels like you own what came before (nanas and jhanas).
4. Feeling like practice just shifted in a way that you can't quite put your finger on.
5. Deeper, more intense dark night that requires new levels of surrender.

"Path diagnosis is non-trivial, and usually in retrospect. For me, I became convinced of 1st path after a long conversation with Kenneth and going over my retreat history with him. I was aware after sesshin that I'd done something, and my mind just would not behave like it used to.

2nd path was clear after a series of hard and intense fruitions. My old thread "Out of the long dark night" details most of it.

for 3rd, it was being able to get into NS and the PL jhanas. Since only anagamis can do that, by definition I was then an anagami. Exactly when the transition happened, I'm not sure. With 3rd it was more gradual.

4th... yeah for 4th is was totally obvious. I knew I was done and insight disease was over. Suffering didn't have anything to grab onto.

All that being said, there are some things that you might notice when you hit a path. (at least 1-3, 4th is different)

1. Deeper feeling to fruitions.
2. Feeling of an energetic shift in the body. Like a channel gets cleared up. This was my clue for 3rd path since 2nd was all about energy and emotional material.
3. New review cycle. It feels like you own what came before (nanas and jhanas).
4. Feeling like practice just shifted in a way that you can't quite put your finger on.
5. Deeper, more intense dark night that requires new levels of surrender.


"

Right, the 1 through 5 list of stuff has happened in varying degrees off and on since first path four months ago, and really strong about every two months (though number 3 isn't so clear and on five i really don't think in terms of 'dark night' I just can tell I need to surrender another layer of stuff or something).
thanks for all your attention to these questions Owen. Nice.

40 minute sit last night.
Didn't use the breath as an anchor (though I was mostly aware of it) and didn't note. Just went straight to synching.
I just synched up with my experience with no real practice-like activities.
Slowly felt more and more empty.
Iron skull cap off and on.
In fact, as I synched with sensations/vibrations/images all over my body the main activity was the wave of energy that seems to be trying to excavate a clear channel up and out my crown.
I'd have a frution and more energy would land there. Again and again. I tried to just keep synching and then when I'd fruition and get the energy up in the head just synch with THAT in a gentle way.
So, it got to be kind of beautiful -- synch, frution, energy pushing up and trying to get out, relax a bit, synch, frution.
Lots of light headedness, lots of bliss. Feeling of a bike tire (my skull) getting inflated.
It all felt right and correct and appropriate and unfinished when the alarm went off.
Great mood the rest of the night.

"Didn't use the breath as an anchor (though I was mostly aware of it) and didn't note. Just went straight to synching. I just synched up with my experience with no real practice-like activities. "

Any tips on what the process of "synching" actually entails, for you?

"Any tips on what the process of "synching" actually entails, for you?"

one is 'with' each object of experience as it starts, as it does its thing, as it ends. and then, right there for the next one as it starts, does its thing and ends.

I'm describing continuity with no pause in between object to think or reflect on what just happened. the one exception to that is if you are able be with the impulse to think or reflect and stay with that as an object. when that happens I think it is a really powerful moment - synching wise, because then you can't lose, frution is right .... there. (bold statement I know, but it matches my experience which is all I got when it comes to this subject)

"I'm describing continuity with no pause in between object to think or reflect on what just happened."-telecaster

Hmm, yes, but the problem is that trying to manufacture that may result it "pushing on a string." Better to pull on the string. Here's how:

Maximize cognitive load through noting. When all of your processing power is used up by the noting, you have nothing left with which to suffer or wander.

Note aloud, once per second, at all four foundations of mindfulness. If this does not max out cognitive load, be more systematic:

Do "pairs" of the 1st two foundations, e.g., itching-unpleasant; coolness-pleasant; pressure-neutral. If this does not max you out:

Do "triplets," e.g., itching-unpleasant-aversion; coolness-pleasant-investigation; (The third foundation, mind states, may or may not be related to the first two; it doesn't matter.) If this does not max out cognitive load:

Do "quads," e.g., pressure-neutral-distraction-planning thoughts. If this does not max out your available processing power, contact me and we will figure out a way to keep you mind engaged in the noting so that you have no mind left with which to suffer.

Kenneth

""I'm describing continuity with no pause in between object to think or reflect on what just happened."-telecaster

Hmm, yes, but the problem is that trying to manufacture that may result it "pushing on a string." Better to pull on the string. Here's how:

Maximize cognitive load through noting. When all of your processing power is used up by the noting, you have nothing left with which to suffer or wander.

Note aloud, once per second, at all four foundations of mindfulness. If this does not max out cognitive load, be more systematic:

Do "pairs" of the 1st two foundations, e.g., itching-unpleasant; coolness-pleasant; pressure-neutral. If this does not max you out:

Do "triplets," e.g., itching-unpleasant-aversion; coolness-pleasant-investigation; (The third foundation, mind states, may or may not be related to the first two; it doesn't matter.) If this does not max out cognitive load:

Do "quads," e.g., pressure-neutral-distraction-planning thoughts. If this does not max out your available processing power, contact me and we will figure out a way to keep you mind engaged in the noting so that you have no mind left with which to suffer.

Kenneth"

thanks Kenneth.
But, I think what I am doing is working for me right now. Do I not give that impression?
My mind is engaged in noticing objects with continuity and when that happens there are fruitions and no suffering.
I feel that my practice is really fruitful right now and I am the happiest I've ever been. Ever. With more to come I think

But, I'm sure that technique you described works, how could it not?

Just watching.

watching objects of experience rise and fall

making sense and creating ideas of those objects

watching one's self make sense and create ideas out of objects ("oh, how lovely, I'm seeing things just as they are and it is wonderful, I am really getting somewhere")

watching one's self come to conclusions ("paying attention is the way to go and will relieve my suffering")

watching objects of experience in fine detail

watching suffering arise and arise and arise

watching resistence to suffering ("what?" "why" "paying attention is supposed to eliminate suffering" "what is wrong?")

watching watching just watching objects of experience

watching thinking

watching analyzing

watching concept making

watching sensations

emptiness emptiness emptiness so nice and one's self must make trouble from it so watch very very carefully

Funny that any of us ever buys into the crap we tells ourselves and each other about the ultimate nature of our existence.
I'd love to stop but I wonder if it's really possible.
Only solution possibly is to pay very close attention and nip it in the bud as much as one can.

"Funny that any of us ever buys into the crap we tells ourselves and each other about the ultimate nature of our existence. I'd love to stop but I wonder if it's really possible." -telecaster

It is possible. It is freedom from suffering. The very attempt to shrink wrap reality is itself suffering (thanks to Chuck Kasmire (Chelek) for the shrink wrapping metaphor). Every subtle movement of the mind away from the present experience is suffering. The Buddha called this dosa. Every subtle attempt of the mind to prolong a pleasant experience (lobha) is suffering. In fact, lobha (greed) and dosa (aversion) are two aspects of the same thing. The Buddha called this root problem tanha. And the fact that we do not see that tanha is suffering is called moha (delusion). Moha is the great enabler.

When you see greed and aversion in realtime (the end of moha "delusion/ignorance") you instinctively drop it like a hot rock. This is why we practice: to be able to see it all in realtime. Every moment of noting cuts through the delusion, making the mind and body transparent to attention. And every moment of noting is like soldering another tiny connection in a vast network of attention, building out the physioenergetic infrastructure that eventually, at the level of 4th Path/arahatship, is capable of continuously grounding all of the free-floating energy in the mind as body sensation. At that point, all you have to do is decide not to suffer (pay the toll), and ground your attention continuously in the body (the lightning rod). To remain undivided in this moment is to be free from suffering. When every fish in the tank can feel even the most subtle movement of all the other fish, they all decide collectively to be a lot less rambunctious. You just have to be the tank and the fish and the aquarium light, all at once.

Be whole. And if you can't be whole, downshift and note.

I think the impulse to "shrink wrap reality" won't go away (I see fourth path people doing it all the time). But I agree that it is possible moment by moment to be free of the impulse by paying close attention.

Speaking for myself I still do the shrink wrap, but the difference today is that I know it when I'm doing it. Before I mistook the package for the content, now when I talk about ultimate reality its clear that I'm only making loud grunting noises. It's a poor excuse, but if we want to talk about it we have to say something. If I don't have to talk about it, I'll usually just sit there and smile.

Yes, that's my current approach at the moment. )**toothy grin and applauds from the sidelines**

At a "free concert" in the park in SF Sunday I early on was grooving on just gliding along with things as they appeared and having wild unitive experiences when I made the fundamental mistake of sort of basking in those experiences and giving them and myself some kind of meaning.
Later in the day i suffered horribly from identifying with those experiences.
I feel better now.

Okay, I guess I lied. I still feel kind of horrible.

I'm practicing: noting/surrendering but these just icky painful disgusting feelings just keep coming and coming and coming since Sunday afternoon at the concert just after all my wonderful experiences of unity and love and peace:

My head hurts, my chest hurts, everything is annoying and stupid, I'm slightly paranoid at work (someone is out to fire me), etc. etc.

Good thing one of the three characteristics of existence is impermanence!

Dookie Bananas!

"Dookie Bananas!"

Fear disgust misery desire for deliverence. I don't know which one is stronger right now I seem to be dancing from one to the other.
I'm used to being able to difuse bad/unpleasant feelings with basic mindfulness/surrender/noting.
But these dookie bananas are stronger than all that right now.
Interesting.

"Fear disgust misery desire for deliverence. I don't know which one is stronger right now I seem to be dancing from one to the other.
I'm used to being able to difuse bad/unpleasant feelings with basic mindfulness/surrender/noting.
But these dookie bananas are stronger than all that right now.
Interesting. "

In spite of this when I wrote Nick on my current horrors he said "surrender!!!!!!" and that made me REALLY surrender in a whole new way that is working to relieve my misery.

Hey mike, things can get pretty hairy around the stage you are in, the thing I found most effective was to keep noting... Give Kennth's instructions a try and see if you notice any thing improving, I have spent a lot of time averred to noting., but at the end of the day it's the best way to keep honest...