Andy's practice thread

Just did my second hour of the day.

Shamatha much better, with a clearer "view" of the sensations of the breath at the nostrils. I was able to enjoy the flow of the breath, and to relax into it, although I became more and more distracted by the tensing up of my neck and shoulders, and found myself unintentionally beginning to note these unpleasant sensations.

When the bell rang after 25 minutes and I moved into the formal vipassana section of my sit, I took this tension head on. I focused on parts of it, felt the kernel of pressure or pain at the centre and was able to watch the margins of the tension fizz and bubble and sometimes dissolve, at least in part. I watched the flow of the tension up my neck, down my shoulders, into the middle of my back between the shoulder blades. I noted whenever I caught myself trying to evade or manipulate the tightness and pain.

Soon, I found myself weirdly contented, even though the pain was still there. I tried to really up the honesty of my noting by imagining that I was noting for someone else, trying to give them the most detailed description of my moment-to-moment experience that I was capable of producing. I realised that I tended to deprioritise lots of very short-lived mental images - especially those which came out of nowhere and which had no relevance to the narrative thoughts in my mind. So I made a special effort to catch those mental images, and the aversive or embarrassed feelings that came with them.

As I became more contented - still noting the tension and following around - I started getting waves of blissful, pleasurable cool energy over my body. Without losing any awareness of what I was doing, I felt myself bathed in energy and white light, but in such a way that felt fairly detached: rapture yes, but sort of at arm's length. I could feel energy gathering in my head, especially moving around the back of the head and towards the top, near the fontanelle.

Continued from above...

Naturally this caused all sorts of thoughts about stream-entry etc, so I made a special effort to note anticipation, mapping thoughts, rehearsing thoughts, expectation and so on. Eventually it all sort of bubbled down, leaving me back with the tension in my shoulder. I noted calmness, disappointment, confusion and so on. When the bell rang for the end, I almost didn't want to get up.

This experience was quite different to what I've been calling the A&P experiences. A&Ps for me are short and ecstatic: they burst in, take you over and leave. Whereas this was different, it felt expansive and big, growing slowly and calmly, without any sort of takeover. I hestitate to describe bright lights and energy, because it makes it seem more grandiose than it felt. It was exciting, but also calm and chilled out, and - importantly - normal and down-to-earth.

I resolved at the end to perservere.

Hi Andy,

I am by no means an expert, but here's some of my observations of the territory and seeing what is what:
Obviously it is much easier to distinguish A&P when it is more 'full-blown',
but I have also come to recognize it as a subtle rush, an excitement, a happiness, and also equanimity,
and thats what makes me sometimes mistake it for that, because there is the factor of equanimity present.

while I find that the 11th Nyana or Equanimity doesn't have the 'wow' factor or even a subtle rush.

Also, even full-blown A&P were different each time for me: the first time I crossed it, I only noticed the after-effects, second time was a full-blown body explosion into vibrations, and when I crossed it for the first time while doing Mahasi noting, it felt like a dissolution of the mind, rather than the body, mind-moment after mind-moment (with the 'wow' factor in all three times).

In regards to not noticing A&P on daily practice - I have a working assumption that there is a kind of temporary centre-of-gravity type thing, even for pre-pathers.
Lets say in the first sit or two of your day, or even practicing while going about your daily business - if you notice a kind of subtle rush or wow factor, that could be A&P.

edit: also what you just reported above sounds like A&P to me, obviously it would be easy to see if you are now in the Dukkha Nyanas, then it was

Thanks Yadid. Really helpful stuff.

Although I make a big deal about mapping, I'm also quite content just to practice without thinking about it and see where it takes me. I suppose the only way all this discussion could be helpful is if my Theory Number 1 is true: i.e. I'm regularly not getting past the 3Cs, in which case something is awry in my practice. But hopefully that's not the case!

I get what you mean.. I find mapping quite helpful if used correctly, which seems to be also working for you.

What you just described really sounds like A&P, so you probably are going through 3Cs..
You just came off retreat recently, no?

Yeah, that's right. A ten day Mahasi retreat at Gaia House - which is kind of the UK equivalent of somewhere like Spirit Rock or IMS.

Nice, I was thinking of doing a self retreat there later in the year when I'm around the UK.

Good atmosphere?

This morning I really tried to pay attention to the different nyanas. I think I could feel a very weak A&P early on - quick rush of energy - shortly followed by an even subtler experience of Fear, which was a just a very brief feeling of uncanniness and disturbance, with a small vibration of energy.

I didn't really notice Misery - this nyana has never been particularly noticeable to me - but Disgust is always easy to spot: the nausea in the stomach, bodily tension gets worse, aversion cranks up, I start imagining bodily tension as a black goo smothering my muscles. Finally, I maybe touched Desire for Deliverance as it all became pretty unbearable towards the end.

I had quite a lot of wandering mind, particularly around what should've been the Misery nyana. Philosophising about the dharma, recalling practice tips and pondering technique. I tried to note it all as soon as I realised. I also tried to note the feeling of wanting to control everything. Sometimes my own desire for what sensations "should" arise means that I don't always note what does. So whenever I noticed this happening I noted "desire for control" or "trying to manipulate".

Well, in that case you should drop in and say hello if you're passing through London.

Gaia House is a great place to go on retreat. It's very conducive to serious practice, but it also manages to avoid that "boot camp" feel that I've encountered at some other retreat centres. For one thing, the house and grounds are beautiful, the accomodation is comfortable and the food is really excellent. I've been thinking of self-retreating there too, but I think it takes a lot of motivation and discipline. I've only ever been on group retreats there, and the personal retreatants can sometimes look a bit rudderless compared to those on a formal timetable. But the advantage of personal retreats is that you tend to get your own room rather than having to share with one or two others.

"Well, in that case you should drop in and say hello if you're passing through London.

Gaia House is a great place to go on retreat. It's very conducive to serious practice, but it also manages to avoid that "boot camp" feel that I've encountered at some other retreat centres. For one thing, the house and grounds are beautiful, the accomodation is comfortable and the food is really excellent. I've been thinking of self-retreating there too, but I think it takes a lot of motivation and discipline. I've only ever been on group retreats there, and the personal retreatants can sometimes look a bit rudderless compared to those on a formal timetable. But the advantage of personal retreats is that you tend to get your own room rather than having to share with one or two others."

Will do! I tend to visit London once a year or so as I like it there.

I see the great part about a personal retreat in exactly this - the self motivation and discipline.. Because I mean, once you're alone and you've got all the time for a retreat, what else is there to do but meditate ?
But yeah it could probably also get rough.

A fairly dull and frustrating sit this morning. Again, I tried really hard to pay attention to specific nyanas, but this meant that I ended up anticipating and craving a great deal. Although I hit the tingly sensations of Mind and Body pretty quickly, I didn't get anything that was recognisable as A&P for a long time.

Eventually - after about maybe 20 minutes - I got a small surge of energy in the spine and then a calming plateau, which was followed by some discursive thought, and then another weak surge which could've been Fear. I then started "looking" for Digust, which was probably a bad idea. It did get very aversive and gross for a while - the bodily tension wasn't as bad as usual, but I was in a lot of frustration and doubt and feeling generally fed up. I didn't have a lot of time left by this stage, and wanted it to be over anyway. But it started to go a little haywire: I started getting more small surges of energy in the spine, pleasurable but brief, which left me feeling fairly confused and disorientated. I did feel some pressure in my head, at the fontanelle, but that was as far as I got. It all felt fairly murky and hard to navigate.

Meh, mopey post. I'll be clearer next time!

Last night's sit was sloth and torpor central (too much time in the sun I think!). No landmarks, no recognisable jhanic arc, just tiredness, mugginess and boredom.

Another hour this morning. Shamatha was in some ways better than it has been - I found I was able to focus on the breath clearly and find it enjoyable to do so - but in other ways worse: lots of wandering in between these moments of focus.

Switching to vipassana, I experienced something similar. Sometimes clear and focused, but at other times there was lots of wandering mind. I moved past the A&P, past Fear and then sort of got lost. Not a lot was going on, it was quite boring, and yet also a bit of a relief: calm, and spacious, and "quiet" even though I could still hear sounds from the road, from the neighbours, and I could still feel the tension in my body. I suppose this could have been Equanimity, but to be honest I'm increasingly confused about this whole jhanic arc business and how it works.

Sounds like progress to me.

Note confusion, boredom. Boredom and confusion are still a set of sensations that can be experienced, broken down, noted. Check out what Jackson had to say about boredom to me starting in my post #21.

On the "body attention, energy blockages" thread, dudeitseddy talks about using dukkha to your advantage, going into the painful parts of your practice. I know that's all pretty standard Buddhist technique, but I've never really grasped exactly how it works before. I tried it last night, and now think I have a better idea.

In short, it's not actually about pain or unpleasantness or discomfort, but about aversion. I made a really concerted effort to pay attention to where mental or physical pain or discomfort was arising and move towards it, noting the aversion to the original pain and the aversion of this close attention to it. I then tried to see if I could note tension, pain, disgust and so on, without the aversion popping up. How long could I stay with an unpleasant sensation before some mental image or plan or idea to get rid of that sensation arose? It turns out not very long! But noting aversion enabled me to go back to the sensation.

I was amazed to find that I had almost zero wandering mind in the sit last night. That might have been because I managed to cultivate at least a base level of samadhi in the shamatha part of my sit (my concentration has been lax recently). But I think it has more to do with the fact that thoughts - particularly thoughts "about" meditation, dharma etc - are seductive, pleasant and essentially a tactic for avoiding suffering. Stay with aversion, and the thoughts don't arise.

I also found that my body started to become cool, light and pleasant, even as I stayed with unpleasant and painful sensations or feelings. I experienced a lot of energetic phenomena, right up to the back and the crown of my head - all pleasant cool tingles and flow - and had already crossed both the A&P and Fear right at the start of the sit.

Continued...

On the other hand, I became aware of just how much aversion and irritation - a.k.a. dukkha - there is with nearly all sensations. It hit home in a way that it never had before. Everything seemed to provoke some sort of aversive reaction, and yet I felt I was able to see this from a fairly detached and equanimous viewpoint. I also became aware of craving and desire in a way that I hadn't really experienced before. And the way that aversion hides itself in a desire, such as the desire to loosen my shoulders holding inside it the aversion towards the pain.

I think this is progress (?!?)

"I became aware of just how much aversion and irritation - a.k.a. dukkha - there is with nearly all sensations."
- AndyW45

Bingo! Progress? You bet!

There is a technique that Kenneth teaches that you might find helpful when investigating this topic further. You could try noting triplets doing first body sensation, then vedana (pleasant, unpleasant, neutral) and finally "greed" or "aversion" depending on how the mind reacts to the sensations. If you cannot make it out, note "dullness". Then there is a special word "equanimity" when the mind is perfectly comfortable with whatever arises. For example:

pressure, unpleasant, aversion
tingling, pleasant, greed
tension, unpleasant, greed
tension, neutral, dullness

Happy investigation!

Antero.

I lost a bit of momentum at the end of last week, managing a lacklustre 45 mins a day on Thursday, Friday and Saturday, rather than my usual 2 hours. I've got back to normal since then, but I feeling like it's taking a lot to re-energise my practice. Things have felt plodding and muggy rather than edgy and clear as they did a few weeks ago. In many ways it feels like a re-run of what was going on at the end of March (see posts 27 and 28 above). Concentration is non-existent, not even a whiff of jhana. My attention gets monopolised by tension in the shoulders and back, and there is a lot of wandering mind.

Although I occasionally get some energetic phenomena - kundalini rushes and that sort of thing - I don't have a clue where on the map I am in my sits. The nyanas are about as clear as mud to me right now. In our last session, Kenneth told me we should probably revise our diagnosis as to where I am. Initially he'd thought early to mid equanimity, but the results of my retreat suggested otherwise, and so now I'm either back in the dukkha nyanas or forward in the dukkha nyanas past first path. I suspect the former, in my typically British underestimating way!

On the up side, I'm slowly getting back into my stride. I did an hour just now, and towards the end the mind felt brighter and more expansive thanks to a short bout of mahamudra practice, listening to the ships in the harbour. I just need to keep this energy and clarity in the rest of my practice somehow.

Tomorrow I'm going to play with some kasinas and see if I can jumpstart my concentration practice that way...

Just a quick note to say that I have a very useful ping-pong session with Nadav yesterday. It's such a great way to get your game up: you can't get distracted when there's someone else there! In fact, I was in the zone so much that I pushed the poor man through 50 mins of noting when we'd originally said 30. But he noted "gratitude" a few times, so hopefully he didn't mind too much!

Still unsure about where I am. I thought I'd got to an equanimous place last night, but then the A&P came along, followed by a whole bunch of dukkha nyanas, so maybe not!

Andy, don't forget that you caved first. I was going for the full hour.

Best of luck with your practice.

He's right. I caved first!

Hello everyone. I am still here, still practicing, although my schedule has been thrown this past month with moving house. The result is that my interest in practice hasn't been as high as usual: I've squeezed it in here and there, but without much momentum or motivation. I think I've been on a plateau for a while, and need to shake things up a bit again.

Kenneth has got me doing two kinds of practice. First is mindstate noting. Mindstates have always been slippery for me, and they have a knack of catching me unawares and making me check the clock or drift off into daydreams. So, I note: aversion, aversion, frustration, boredom, indifference, aversion, desire to get up, interest, aversion, aversion, irritation. That continues for a while.

The aversion is mostly towards tension in my back. I really want to get rid of it and am having regular deep tissue massage to ease it along. It monopolises my attention in meditation as I feel lumps of tension move around from left to right, from muscle to muscle, from spine to shoulder to neck and back. I catch myself manipulating the tension, or trying to get rid of it mechanically. So I note "desire to manipulate, aversion, desire for release". I then try to accept the tension, hoping that it will somehow ease away if I do. I catch myself, and note "aversion, bargaining, gamesmanship".

Sometimes I catch twinges of raw emotion in the tension: "sadness, anger, hatred, self-pity". Sadness is accompanied by cool energy buzzing very quickly. Anger and hatred are a slower, but still rapid vibration, very claustrophobic and tight. I then start fantasing about what repressed memory is stuck in there. I catch myself: "self-obsession, self-criticism, frustration, self-doubt, irritation".

I do this for half an hour or so. Then I switch to Mahamudra practice. I don't think I've got the hang of it yet. I find it hard to "do nothing" and also be alert enough not to daydream. I incline the mind or listen to the ships, but I find that it's very heady - it involves some subtle muscle movement inside the skull to get the effect, which is just another form of manipulating consciousness and hence not what I'm looking for. I ask myself what the original nature of mind is, and have no idea what the question even means. I have mental images of "pure awareness" - another conditioned part of consciouness and hence also not what I'm looking for. I daydream. I come back. I incline the mind and doubt I'm doing it right. Or not doing. And get confused.

Going to keep at it, but I find it so subtle and so rudderless, that I have very little confidence in my own ability to "do" it.

Hi Andy. The mind-state practice sounds interesting. I do note mind states more frequently now than in the past, but I've always found mind states much more slippery than other stuff. In a typical sit I'll notice that I haven't been noting mind states much and then have to "look/investigate" to see what's up there. Do you now find that you're getting more and more able to notice and disidentify from mind states?

Hi Joel,

I've found that mindstates can be less slippery if you root them in the body. Essentially I'm still focusing on the tension in my back, but instead of noting "tension, tightness, pain" I note "aversion, anger, self-pity". There are some mindstates that are less somatic, like confusion, or uncertainty, but this morning I was able to see that this kind of thing is all a form of anxiety and worry ("Am I practicing right? How do I do this?" etc) which is really tied in to bodily sensations, particularly tension in the shoulders. It's amazing how this focus on mindstates in the body helps you release and open up. I discovered founts of emotion and suffering in the body by doing this. It's not always very appealing to do this, but the energy released is very cathartic.

Today I found that I was far more aware of the jhanic arc when practicing this way. Usually I'm only able to recognise A&P and Fear with any confidence, but today I had not only a very beautiful, expansive A&P, but also a much clearer picture of Misery - real deep sadness, like tears almost welling up, self-pity to 11 etc - and also of Disgust - nausea in the mouth, and sometimes the belly, horrible mental images of bodily tension. There's also all this rapture involved in these nyanas: bursts of cool energy that well up and release alongside all the dukkha.

I'm using your "gamesmanship" note a lot - also I find "bargaining" is quite good!

Last night, on Mumuwu's recommendation, I tried narrative noting. Just describing what was going on in my experience informally. I tried to record what happened, but my phone seemed to cut it off after 5 minutes, before I'd even started noting! I'll try again another time and transcribe some of the results. Had a very clear A&P, moments of misery and fear.

This morning: 30 mins of shamatha. 30 mins of freeform outloud noting. A&P, but no other clear nyanas.

This evening: 15 mins of shamatha. 35 mins of freeform outloud noting. 10 mins of listening to the ships. No clear nyanas.

Noting mindstates is the most satisfying practice for me right now. It is challenging, so it really fills the mental bandwidth and also forces me to acknowledge things - unpleasant mindstates for example - that I'd otherwise ignore. Freeform noting doesn't really seem to do it for me at the moment. I just drift.