Giulio B. re-start

30 mins noting aloud, interrupted at 25. Usual ok start and degradation of the whole thing in the second half. Some thoughts seem to have no content but a foggy, moving blur, with a presence of myself in them.

25 mins noting before dinner. Worked a little bit on selecting the appropriate notes before sitting. It has been a little more detailed and accurate. One note every 1.5-2 seconds approximately, with the usual drop in the second half.

25 mins noting this morning interrupted at 20. There was a little more precision in labeling phenomena. As usual by the end things bwcome messy, i think it muight be possible that thought speed rushes up.

23 mins noting. Speed, precision, steadiness ok for 10 minutes. Then these three characteristics degraded and the whole thing became gruesome. Frustration, heat in the abdomen, aching, anguish, this stuff.

12 mins of noting (were 25, interrupted). This eve was a 'no' time for meditatio. Next session tomorrow early morning.

Devastating afternoon; flooded with fear of death.
Had a concentration session before dinner, 25 mins, which have been spent pretty much by sleeping. I was trying to concentrate (skill i'm not good at) in a lying position (had back pain, wanted a pain-free posture) but got quite sleepy.

Then 25 mins noting this evening, which went ok and now my fear of death subsided dignificantly. I was able yo keep on noting for the whole lenght without getting exasperated, and continued for some minutes after getting up.

Had a 20 and 10 (interrupted at) minutes respectively of concentration and noting aloud. Both went bad. With conc., i was doing it reclined and had backpain and/so the negative thoughts were overhelming. I was unsettled for noting. I must say the timing, setting and preparation for both wasn't good, so as it usially happens the outcome was announced. Skippwd today. Noting first thing tomorror morning hopefully.

25 mins noting aloud this morning. Sleepiness by the second half.
20 mins noting silently before lunch. Ok first half, degraded for sleepiness in the second half.
*attempted* 25 minutes of concentration (nostrils) before dinner. Distractions and negative states were overhelming. Concentration is something i'm simply not good at... It takes time out of noting plus. Was doing it lying down, went to sleep right on the place after a bunch of minutes.

Skipped yesterday. 25 mins noting today before dinner.

25 minutes of noting aloud yesterday evening. It was a particulary depressive evening, so there was a flood of obsessive mental images, proprioceptions and unpleasant physical feelings. I began with counting 3x10. Speed was about the usual, very variable of course, by the end the aching and various pains mostly on the rib cage, i noted "skeletal pain", lots of self recriminations and guilt for thinking about choosing the wrong or inappropriate note. Tension and stiffness of the neck, lots of negative feelings about it. Gave up about 10 seconds before the alarm rang.

25 minutes of noting (silent) this morning at 7.30 am. I was a little drowsy but not too much. Started fast and then degraded after seconds. I had the impression that phenomena were arising and dissolving faster than usual, but that was just "meditation theory" or "speculation". Always some negative feeling arises before choosing to give a note such a s in this case, and follows the choice. The first is too fast, the latter is clearer and i note it "evaluation" or "judgment" when the negativity is light, "self recrimination" or "guilt" when there is clearly guilt, that is almost always, and "self-loathing" for very strong guilt (this just for choosing a note...). It's a mess of guilts, self-loathing/hating/recriminations, feelings of oppression and disturbing mental images. I'm not surprised that i don't want to do it.

Speed report... Saturday blank day. 25 and (interrupted) 15 minutes of noting yesterday. About 40 mins noting today and a few 1-10 counts. Noted while on the street for about 15 minutes.

A depressive replapse... i did nothing for more than a week. In general.

Re-started today after finally going back to the gym and exercizing a little, so i had some encouragment and energy.

So it was 10 minutes breath counting followed by 10 minutes noting aloud.

Breath counting: obsessive thoughts were flooding. Not TOO bad, just bad. I could handle returning to the breath, and there weren't particulary cruel anguish feelings (and alike). The tenth count was still like the first anyway.

Noting: better. only ten minutes, thanks god, i was already in difficult waters by the end of it. But it went fast and relatively steady. Common notes: pressure, thinking, self-judgment, self-recrimination, aching, tighness, negative emotion, speculating, evaluation, hearing, feeling, dryness, coolness, image, blurry though, self-reference, worry, despair, wanting to escape, grief.

Committment: just 10 minutes of conc. + 10 minutes of noting, total 20 mins PER DAY, same hour before dinner. Doing more just get me more depressed. Doing nothing either.

If you have an already-existing tendency to depression, or the meditation is exacerbating it (which meditation can do at times) you might consider additional supports, such as seeing a therapist. Coming to terms with the life-stuff that is weighing you down via therapy can give you more room to meditate. It doesn't "ruin" meditation to get additional support when you are in a tough period in life, or if you have a natural tendency towards depression. Finding someone to meditate with (via skype, ping pong noting, a teacher, a real-life group, etc.) can also be helpful.

Another useful support technique is to do Metta meditation daily - temporarily it can be your only practice, when you are stabilized it can be a supplement to noting.

Sorry you're going through a rough patch. Try to remember that it won't always be like this. Do you suspect this is due to dukkha nanas?

Giragirasol's comments are right on. You're describing a lot of devastating, self-loathing, depressive, gruesome, and overwhelming sits. It's okay for those sensations to pop up occasionally, but if that is most of the content of the sit, then meditation might just be like banging your head on the wall. It won't help much. Seems like you have been trying noting for two months now. What do you think, is it helping you?

"Sorry you're going through a rough patch. Try to remember that it won't always be like this. Do you suspect this is due to dukkha nanas? "

Thank you. No, i'm not in the nana territory (Ron Crouch confirmed).

I wasn't especting this attention, thank you...
I'm in this state (major dep) since i was 10-12, now 25. This was because i grew up very thin and with a curved spine, generally escluded and mocked, i'm better now but i have a depressive tendency that is carved in me. It is the fundamental ground layer on which i stand or live with, and it has been so all along so i'm accustomed to it. I have plans to lift up the mood which are even better than therapy and drugs combined, but the problem is to actually persist in them, because with dep. you are emptyed of operative motivation, so there is craving for lethargy, sleep, distractions, protection, etc. basically anything that shuts you off.

I'm in the spiritual field since 5 years, always been with soto zen before, have done practice and retreats, just not too regularly because there was a lot of frustration with the practice not working, me not understanding what they said or not wanting to follow the instructions, so i had many breaks.

Yes i've done noting practice since two-three months with occasional breaks of either a day or up to a week. It did't work in the sense that i didn't get into nana territory. I like it though. I find it very scientifical and concrete, and i'm a little scientist... i can do it ok for a few minutes, get briefly self-confident at times because i realize i'm really "shooting aliens", and then i get scared to loose the feeling, i want to end the session so i don't loose it, noting gets slower, more confused, this always happen. But noting is what i like the most... on good days lol.

For what concerns metta I have bought the book "loving kindness" by sharon salzberg that exposes the four immeasurables, but i never read it because i find it unsubstantial, and maybe feminine... I probably shold look into it though...

(Any advice or anything to say, well accepted)

10 mins of conc. and 10 mins of noting aloud this evening.
For a few counting series i totally failed to concentrate, towards the end series though i had some self-confidence feelings because i got a little tuned into the bare sensations of the abdomen, but nothing particular.
Started noting well. Mood a little higher than usual. Noted seeing, self-reference, thinking, pressure (sometimes followed by 'unpleasant'), hearing (lots), guilt, emotion, negative emotion, wet, dryness, image (lots), stiffness, tooth-ache, choosing note, speculation, remembering, heat, back (specific proprioception of my posture), pulsing, worry, fear, wanting to escape, wanting to finish.
Noted all ok for about 4-6 minutes, then very mild excitment feelings arose and i feared to lose them, so fear arose, worry, wanting to get up... the noting got slower and less precise.

For now not more that 10 mins of conc. and 10 of noting per day, for a couple of days. I saw that 10 minutes each is the ideal time.

I found it encouraging when reading recently on a thread here a comment by kenneth folk in which he said that his chronic depression was completely gone by the time he got fourth path. i've had years of depression too, at times severe, so what kenneth wrote is really good news....

"Thank you. No, i'm not in the nana territory (Ron Crouch confirmed)."

Let's not be too hasty - this sounds a lot like DN territory, but let's get a little more data over time.

Giulio, if it gets especially rough, do some concentration and metta to sharpen your skills and smooth the roughness out a little. You're dealing with some pretty heavy dukkha and while you want to get insight into it, there is no need to suffer too much.

Hang in there - you're obviously doing the hard work!

"i never read it because i find it unsubstantial, and maybe feminine" - these kind of reactions are great to note. Metta practice is a darn good way to uncover all sorts of attitudes and feelings we have about who we think we are, how we like to perceive others, how we want others to perceive us, etc. - all of which are a bunch of self-defenses we cling to.... equanimity is the place of not clinging nor being averse. That's the purpose of metta practice - to point towards that equanimity towards every last thing in the whole world. The "but I don't want to" and all the other reactions are just more excellent fodder for your noting practice. I guarantee metta practice won't turn you into a bimbo.

"... i have a depressive tendency that is carved in me. It is the fundamental ground layer on which i stand or live with, and it has been so all along so i'm accustomed to it.

I'm in the spiritual field since 5 years, always been with soto zen before, have done practice and retreats, just not too regularly because there was a lot of frustration with the practice not working, me not understanding what they said or not wanting to follow the instructions, so i had many breaks.

Yes i've done noting practice since two-three months with occasional breaks of either a day or up to a week. It did't work in the sense that i didn't get into nana territory. I like it though.

i can do it ok for a few minutes, get briefly self-confident at times because i realize i'm really "shooting aliens", and then i get scared to loose the feeling, i want to end the session so i don't loose it, noting gets slower, more confused, this always happen. But noting is what i like the most... on good days lol.
""

That's great news that you like noting and are looking into metta practice, these can be real life savers!

I think it's important to take stock of our practice history every so often. It seems like you are clearly drawn to spiritual practice, but you might not be making as much progress as you would like. Depression is actually a very strong protective emotion. It takes care of us. It allows us to understand the dark side of the world, face uncomfortable truths, forces us to rest, and keeps us safe by holding us in our safe zones. I'm convinced it has a survival benefit, that's why it exists, that's why evolution didn't weed it out.

Moving from survival in depression into a more open living of life isn't easy, but it doesn't have to be hard either. We naturally want to have a full experience of life. Meditation can help with that...

but it probably isn't the fastest path. One way to think of therapy is it is a kind of meditation practice specifically designed to get rid of some hindrances. So if you have the opportunity to get this kind of help, it would probably help you make quicker progress.

Meditation helps depression because it allows you to re-engage with life a little at a time. If you pick a time when you have nothing else to do, when you are free and safe to practice, then you can simply look at your mind. You will see how it creates patterns of thought that seem to cover up the simplicity of the moment. Over time, your mind will prefer the simplicity of the moment and drop the extra noisy stuff.

But the readjustment can't be underestimated. Like you said, depression can almost be one's identity. It can be one's entire approach to life and the only "view" we have. The mind will not let that go easily. It feels like the only thing we have at times. It isn't clear how else we can be. Anyone who has been depressed for a long time knows what it is like to get excited about something new and then have that fail to make us happy. Meditation practice and therapy and new friends and life changes can all offer that kind of hope for a while... and depression can take it away.

Like I said before, depression is actually a very curious kind of safe space: we feel uncomfortable and oppressed... but we hold onto those feelings because at least it gives us something, some kind of certainty or knowing or confidence that life is this way.

...cont.

There's the classic teaching story about a child that falls into a rose bush and has a thorn jab into his palm. The pain is excuriating and so he clamps his hand closed, holding the thorn in his hand. He walks around for days like that until finally a parent finally notices and asks why he is holding his hand like that. The child doesn't want to say and it's another half day before the child eventually , begrudgingly, tells what happened. The parent takes the child to the doctor and of course the first thing the doctor wants the child to do is open his hand so he can look. The child tries but the pain hurts too bad. The doctor tries to coax the child to open his hand, but the child is scared and it hurts so the child never does. Nonetheless, the doctor has had a chance to look at the hand and sees that it isn't infected or in bad shape, so he sends the child home with the parent and says bring him in when he isn't scared anymore and then maybe I can help. That evening the parent tries many times to get the child to open the hand, but it's still too painful and scary. So the parent puts the child to bed, telling it a bed time story, slowly stroking the child's head, gently playing with the child's hair... and the child drifts off to sleep. The parent then very gently and very very slowly eases open the child's hand. It takes almost an hour, moving the hand very very slowly. The hand is very stiff from being held closed so tightly for so long. Finally, the parent can see the palm of the child's hand. There is nothing. Any wound that might have been there has already healed by now. The pain was from clamping down, holding on so tight, for so long.

beautifully said, beta