Giulio B. re-start

Meditation and therapy is like the parent gently opening the hand.

Noting practice does this by taking a big experience and breaking it into little pieces. Nothing more or less than that. We get to see how a mood has this sensation and that thought, and we get to see that those sensations and thoughts are made up of smaller and finer sensations and thoughts. We don't push those sensations and thoughts away, we just let them be, we honor them and allow them to be.

Two important things:

1) go slowly (shorter sits, gentle investigations) so the hand feels like it can release just a little. If you practice too long at a time or with too much intensity, the hand will just lock up again. Even if you make initial progress, you will lose it when it locks up from going too fast.

Lots of 10 minute sits can be better than a one hour sit. Really.

2) Investigate the pieces of experience. Don't stop at big categories of sensations/thoughts. If you note fatigue or frustration, look into those experiences and see how they are made of a lot of smaller sensations. Try to be a specific as possible. The story line of depression can continue to exist because we think it's one big and very true "view", but actually it isn't totally true, it is partially an interpretation of a lot of smaller sensations put together, a thought plus a feeling plus a memory plus a future idea plus a feeling, etc.

And lastly a word of caution... and I know this from personal experience.

There will be little moments, like rays of sunlight, that will start popping into our minds as depression starts thinning out. Don't make a big deal about this. I've seen myself and others become almost manic as our body starts feeling good sensations. Depressive minds are super sensitive to positive mind states.

The best thing to do is to allow those good moods and sensations to gently wash over us. Over time, the mind will actually re-wire itself and our baseline will be able to handle and hold these states. But it takes time. (By the way, walking, dancing, or gentle exercise can help loosen up manic energy and allow us to be more grounded. These things also help thin depression. Another way depression keeps us depressed is by not having us move our body, not letting the juices flow, keeping us stagnant.)

Metta practice helps. Usually depressive people find it easier to wish other people happiness than themselves. If this is the case, it's okay to focus on others at first. But at some point, we need to ask, why don't we deserve metta? All beings deserve kindness and love. And we'll realize that giving metta to ourselves helps us to be better people, to practice better, to be out in the world better, which is ultimately better for all beings. (Depression likes to keep us depressed because it is a safe way to be. Ironically, happiness is threatening and can feel unsafe! But usually the mind is clever and won't admit to feeling unsafe, it will say "this is stupid!")

Good luck! If you start off well, with acceptance and a willingness to take lots of little steps, then you will get to your destination.

All wonderfully put beta. Great advice!

Thanks for the compliments, but I hope I didn't just vomit dharma all over this practice thread! If any of this is helpful, great -- if not, throw it out! No worries

Thanks to everyone. Thank you very much Beta...

I can't come up with anything else to say for now, but thanks again.

From the last report, friday, i have skipped both saturday and monday (whole days).

10 mins concentration + 10 mins noting saturday before lunch. Nothing particular aside that i recognised the importance of trying to note the actual sensations, not sensations that have arisen in the past (2-3-4 seconds back for example). I think that in the first case what happens is the training of the function called "apperception", while in the second case it is probably just thought content that gets verbalized.

5 mins concentration + 17 mins noting. I started quite late (around 23), with the back already aching and assumed a sat posture. I had played a massive multiplayer game for all the afternoon until a minute before meditation (the damn account is now closed), and i was attached to it for the concentration period - frustration and a mind that seemed a scared beast began to mount so i began with noting. Started with a moderate speed (1 note / 1-2 seconds) with massive resistance, worry and loathing fueled by back aching. After 2-3 minutes the speed increased a little bit reaching my usual peak for 2 minutes (1/ second), then slowly decreased. Back aching was too much so i lied down on the floor. Speed risen up again from zombie-mode where it was, then decreased again near the end of the session.

10 mins of concentration plus 10 mins of noting wensday. I don't remember much, apart that the second part of the noting have made arise powerful negative stuff...

I almost skipped thursday, but i found myself awake at 4 am so took a shower and done something. It has been 10 minutes of concentration, not well done, and my ocd were interfering. Switched to noting but sleepiness really kicked in and went to bed.

Today 15 mins of concentration + 15 minutes of noting. Very reclined position, i have worked well with the concentration, staying close to the feelings from the abdomen most of the time. I pheraps did more than three series of counting 1-10 while keeping some extent of focus (not ininterrupted on the low time frames of course). Switched to noting. Started mild, noting lots of "hearing" and physical sensations, seeing, image, verbal thought, though, self-judgement, self-recrimination, self-reference. I noted once "worthlessness" (similar to self loathing). Noted "chest" when i had some sensation coming from there that i couldn't tell better, breathing, heat, dryness (lips). A certain sustained and unrestricted speed was there around the second fifth of the noting session... after it slowed down and got clearly lost in though or fantasies (note) for a few times. The bell rang, noted a few intentions and was mindful about the movements in getting up.

While a few days ago i classified mine as depression primarily now i think it is an ocd that concerns the posture and the body in general. My spine is more curved than normal and so every time i catch myself slouching, which is always because i can't assume an acceptable straight position if not through stretching, i feel a strong oppression, a feeling of thick air from my lungs, heat, seems like something that explode and then slowly fade away in my mid-chest. Very very powerful, it commands me to get straight, get up, distract [...]

[...] to move, move, just move, anything not to feel that i'm slouched and so curved. I can tell this is what gives me massive problems with the studying duties. I've began reading "The mindful way through depression", that is more or less a self-taught MBCT, but i'm not too much enthusiast about it.

30 mins conc. followed by 30 mins noting laid down yesterday evening. It came since a 3-days break. A lot of discomfort from the neck / throath, pressures. About halfway of the conc. time i realized i wasn't really applying, and so open the eyes and verbally committed to concentrate at full throttle. The following 2 - 5 minutes were probably done so, but then the discomfort problem at the neck penetrated that space and covered most of the sensations from the abdomen, and i lost some momentum. I noticed that in general the blood pulsations sensations are much more powerful and tend to cover the mechanical sensations of movement of the abdomen. These same blood pulsations aren't pleasant anyway, and the more they get attention the more they get unpleasant.
Noting was devastating concerning the mood, for the sole reason of having the neck that hurt in that laid position, a phenomenon which is linked to my spine and gets me frustrated. I completed the whole hour though. The feelings from the neck and related self-loathings were incredible. I moved a lot but stayed there. Mood was below ground level afterwards. This morning mood up, will to practice more, improved fearlessness at negative states.

Hey Giulio, I know this is a bit personal, but I thought I'd put it out there since you've mentioned a couple of times your back problem feels like a pretty big burden to you. It reminded me of a friend I had in college who when he was young had accidentally cut off several of his fingers. He constantly thought about it and was terribly ashamed and embarrassed by it. He felt like it his hand was really ugly and everyone would notice it and it was such a sign to him of the dumb thing he'd done as a kid that led to the accident (I don't remember what exactly happened). Honestly? I never remembered he had a damaged hand. I constantly forgot. Maybe he got teased about it in school and that made him more sensitive. It's just one example. The point being we've all got weird things - small or large - with our bodies that we can struggle with, thinking we are not "Joe" but rather "Joe the Idiot Who Cut Off Three Fingers" or "Mary with the Ugly Nose." No one feature of us defines us unless we let it. We are so much more than that, so much bigger and more wonderful than some random quirky body part. You will see that in time. Be gentle to yourself. You deserve it.

Thanks gira! It's true that i have strong hate-circuits. I can tell that abstract thoughts/images alone are not able to hinder my meditation so much, these are usually linked with physical sensations though and these are disturbing when i'm focused on something, for ex. reading stuff or following the breath, also noting. Now that i'm writing, for example, i'm unconsciouusly stretching myself at periods of 10-20 seconds and moving my foot.

Meditating (anything) while in the sitting position:

The pattern that constantly repeats itself is usually made of three / four components arising in chronological order: touch sense, an image, and a sensation of oppression and burning at the chest level, that brings about a strong feeling of aversion (or fear) to the same.
Specifically a sensation of touch pertaining my back and neck arises, followed by a very fast mental image of it, then immediately the oppression feeling, aversion. Sometimes the order changes.

Laid down position:

The trouble shifts at the neck level, because when i do straighten my spine by laying down somewhere not too soft the cervical lordosis increases (the curve changes position to some extent), and so the cerv. vertebrae push the throath "insides" forward making after 7-10 minutes pain arise, difficulty to swallow and restricted breathing. This does not involve much muscle tension though so i'm able to stay for a hour or more in this position, but it's very uncomfortable, and very very unpleasant.

60 mins conc. two days ago, laid position. The feeling was like rowing against the current. The neck unpleasantness was just too evident, omnipresent, although i always sticked to the breath/heartbeat feelings. Settling into the neck-sensation seemed to increase the unpleasantness.

Skipped yesterday. 20 minutes noting this morning, sat position, discovered "the pattern".

It really helps when you start to see the processes that are involved in the feelings, like you are. The more you see the process, the less grip the discomfort will have. Good stuff.

Thanks for the info, it's good to remember...!

20 mins of noting (sat on a kneeling chair). Began with a mild speed and poor steadiness. After a short time, speed and steadiness increased by a good amount and i was pleased with it. Notes mostly hearing (lots), pressure, thinking, images, self-recrimination (usually linked to the noting itself), some self loathing, verbal thought, desire, dryness, burning. After a while the speed slowly decreased and so the steadiness, and this was unmistakenly caused by the burning sensations in the abdomen. It happened after 10-12 minutes, muscolar tension of the back extensors went up, strong burning in the chest area, which i sometimes note as "oppression", it is physical. Aching everywhere in the trunk. Noting got slower, concentration (noting-related) got destroyed, a lot of desides to get up. Clear aversion to the position. Noting is ok, there is no way i'm going to get anywhere with pure samatha practice with these things going on though, i think. When i do it is just for testing purposes.

My practice lacks discipline, mostly done at late afternoon or after dinner, sometimes skip, i shall establish a fixed and unavoidable space in early mornings.

It's been more than two months that I have posted. I don't feel entitled to write here, but please bear with me. Thanks to everyone who was here reading or saying something in the past, in particular to betawave.

For anybody, I am a 25 years old male with a spinal deformity (sheuermann kyphosis) which brings a cronic back and neck pain, headaches, severe stress and tension, and of course i'm physically deformed so you can imagine. My depression is extremely severe, it actually doesn't pass a day or two in which i spend several hours dreaming to find a gun to shoot myself. When i'm in such a state it is terrible. In some other hours of the day though i feel better, stronger, wanting to do something. I cannot die unfortunately because my mother would crumble as well as other family members, and because I cannot protect people that are in need if i'm gone.

I cannot find a therapist in italy, because i've been to a few of them and believe me they make damages. They are scared of me themself. Too much suffering to take on. For this reason i need a therapist who's advanced in the path of insight, because just they could take me on. But there aren't here anywhere in italy. I've contacted one but he said he was busy (true). If anybody knows somebody please pm me, it is extremely important, I need all the help I can afford.

So lately i went into drugs and experienced a very bad trip on a high dose of shrooms. Definying "bad" here isn't meaningful, as even the worst experiences can be instructive and might bring good, and in fact i'm not traumatized or scared. I'm done with mind-altering substances though, throwed out all the stuff.

Today I began exercizing, and done that in a very bad state but done that. I started again noting. Did 15 minutes on a recline chair. A lot of "fear" and "despair", as well as (continue...)

(continue from before...) "hearing" and "pressure", "neck", "back", "self reference", "self-judgment", "concern", "frustration", "want to get up", "desire".

Now I swear on god, if I will die I will die, but I MUST do anything possible to reach 4th path and i'm still alive because there is this opportunity, otherwise i'd be gone for good. I'm smart, i outsmart everyone I personally know, i'm well educated and I know these skills are one my side.

I've started taking efexor (an antidepressant) and exericizing. Now i WILL, no matter what, my body can crumble and disgregate but i WILL exercize fully at least three times a week, and do noting every day at least once for 15 mins. I must also find a therapist but that is the hardest task.

Sorry for the mess, thanks for letting me here (in case!), i feel the need to start-up this diary again.

Having read about your condition on Wikipedia makes me understand better the kind of difficulty you might have with meditation (in terms of pain, position,etc.), as well as the depression you have. Have you ever met (online?) other people with similar conditions? The internet is such an international connector, I know there are groups, forums, blogs and so on for all sorts of conditions, events, problems, support, etc. If there isn't, have you thought about starting one? It is highly likely there are other people out there with spinal deformities (whether S. kyphosis or other) who might also feel very burdened and alone in their situation.

Do be clear that meditating - mindfulness, noting, etc. - can be done in any body position, while moving or still. The point is to pay attention, so traditionally very still positions like sitting in a quiet room were used, because these help cut out distractions. However, most traditions also include contemplative walking (very slow walking - very slow), or meditation during work (like the zen monk raking sand in the garden). You can find combinations of slow, deliberate and relaxing activities that are the least painful, perhaps? Don't feel confined by the idea that you have to sit or lay down, if those are more painful than moving.

You can also work with a teacher long distance, such as on Skype. Ron Crouch, who is on this forum, is a dharma teacher as well as a licensed therapist. He or others may also be able to make suggestions of other teachers who also have a background in psychotherapy.

A hug and courage to you.

I'm very concerned about this thread and its owner so I'm going to lock it pending getting more information from the thread owner. Depression and thoughts of hurting one's self or suicide must be taken very seriously.

Thanks,

Chris Marti
KFDh Admin

Just got an email from Giulio, who explained that he is getting the support he needs now. Unlocking the thread so he can continue documenting his practice, which is very important to him.

Glad it was locked, glad you got the support you needed, and glad it's now unlocked. Welcome back Giulio!

Welcome back!

Thanks to everyone infinitely. Things are going generally better now, also with my real life duties.

At the point i am now it would take an earthquake to prevent me doing my 15 minutes of formal practice on the evening. Never reached such a stable routine before (whatever its quality) and i'm very happy for it. I'm now trying to stabilize it further, being very calm and careful to add more "mandatory" meditation time, so that when difficult times will come again it will be a solid foundation. For now i plan to come here every once in a while to say everything is going on.

(thanks again to everyone and to chris for his actions).

'Weekly' report:
- current practice is 15 mins of breath counting (concentration would be the idea lol), added 15 minutes of noting silently immediately following
- daily breath counting has been uninterrupted since 24 days and noting since 4. this should be on par or over the maximum steadiness i've reached in the past years
- situation is stable

Skipped the last 3 days and began again today's evening. Skipped much more than three days actually, because it often happened that somehow meditation time came and i just dragged my body to the mat negligently doing something i had no willingness to do, fast and badly. That way is bad, much much better is to prepare a little bit before with some reading and take things calmly. Also open eyes work better. Lying down on the carpet i think is fine. I changed my focus point from the nostrils to the mechanical up and downs of the abdomen, noting remains mostry choiceless.

Yesterday evening I planned to do the usual 15 + 15 concentration and noting. So I lied down on the carpet as usual, and it happened that i had a throat-ache and my breathing was partially restricted. The whole thing was particularly uncomfortable, and after 5 minutes I thought "this is useless" so I gave up and went straight to bed. I still have to sort out what do to in those cases, because they're the majority and also because it's what life is about, our bodies are slowly decaying, so sooner or later everybody will invariably experience that growing decay without being able to "go to bed".

"I still have to sort out what do to in those cases, because they're the majority and also because it's what life is about, our bodies are slowly decaying, so sooner or later everybody will invariably experience that growing decay without being able to "go to bed"."

I think you are right, all of us need to gently push ourselves into expanding our tolerance for these negative sensations. The important thing is to do this through gradual progress and not give ourselves such a high dose that it triggers strong negative reactions. There is wisdom and strength to be found, but only if slowly increase our tolerance.

It's good to have a game plan before we get hit by those "this is useless" feelings. Maybe you can use a timer and say, I'm going to experience 3 minutes of the "this is useless" sensation? Maybe even start off with one minute or 30 seconds? It doesn't matter, just whatever feels like the next step.

Hope this helps!