Rational for this topic can be found here, page 3: awakenetwork.org/forum/2-general-forum-t...etwork-participation

Lets get clear about final awakening. Lets make this a collective approach and pull no punches. For those who had an initial awakening, what to do next? To use Adyashanti's lingo, you are indeed enlightened after your initial awakening where the aperture opens up, but then it closes again and ego fights back. Then you have a (~10 years of it by a few reports) post-awakening period where you are now changed forever but not quite fully done.

Post-initial awakening is all about getting that damn aperture to stay open. This means that we are working towards an abiding state of awakening. There is not much information about this phase. I don't accept that it is because it is highly individualized or mysterious. I purpose here that we attempt to develop it anyways. Lets shed light on all the dark spots that we can and see what we come up with.

For the first part of this process I suggest we state our current assumptions, goals, and definitions for all to critique. In this, I hope we get a baseline on where we are at, where we are trying to go, and are we all experiencing the same truth? This will have to be a non-religious (sorry buddha, but you dont own enlightenment) and non-traditional approach. Enlightenment theory is obviously very contended and hotly discussed (many practices, teachers, methods, sudden vs developmental, etc.) but my main objective here is to maybe find out what we all have in common. What is the lowest common denominator in all of this? Perhaps getting clear about some aspects of this path will be helpful for us to make progress again.

Here are some questions to start:
1) Where are you at currently and honestly tell us where your end goal is. Do you believe there is an end goal (It depends how you approach this philosophically)
2) Defend/explain your experience(s) of awakening. What is it like for you not being in this state 24/7 once having experienced it at least once? How do you know it was the real deal? This is dangerous but it can be helpful to compare notes
3) What is your definition as final awakening/enlightenment/done? How do we get there? Who has this info sufficiently spelled out?

Me:
1) I hit what I unabashedly call fourth path (or, my first real deal-nothing more to attain awakening) around 2011. Since then my interest in nanas went to zero and I've made some slow progress but mostly I've lost most of my fire to go further. This loss of fire is curiously juxtaposed with my desire to go further, finish it out. Forth path awakening was the real deal for me, my eye were open for about a day, and in the subsequent years since then I have only attained a handful more fully awakened moments, each one making an important impact. My end goal is for the abiding state of awakness where ego is always seen for what it is, doesn't pull me into division, and I feel perfectly done with the awakening process itself. In other words, you can't go any further than knowing/experiencing truth. Whats more true than true? Im not pushing for the end of suffering or fear or desire, just the end of the process of awakening.

2) You know it is when its there. It's self-verifying. All concerns and questions are instantly self-correcting and made whimsically and perfectly all in their correct place. I don't see me as doing anything, there is just awareness of things happening. Fear and anything else unpleasant can arise, but I'm not invested in it like before. I am still a flesh and blood human with thoughts, emotions, desires, and ego- yet, it is all perfectly fine just like that- there is no part of me that seems to be driving it. In this state, desire for even one single more gram of Awakening is impossible. If someone told me that what I was experiencing was only 1% of the real thing, I wouldn't care to go any further. I suspect that this experience can evolve but I haven't had much time spend in fully eyes open mode and not many people have written about this. Currently, I am in the post-awakening part of this were my eyes are not always open, I do not feel done or satisfied with my progress. Fourth path, despite others reporting so, did not feel completely "done" to me. I question that I really am enlightened and despite knowing what it is and what it was like, I fall into delusion most of the time. I understand fully the no-self concept post 4th path. That knot was untied and can never be-retied like it was, yet ego seems to still be winning all of these years later. I've gone back to sleep mostly and I fear that I am being fake and did not really attain anything. However, even when I go through phases where I do no practice at all, something seems to still be going on. Small insights keep happening and ego does seem to be slowly deteriorating. Im not doing enough and the old practices do not seem to change much at this stage.

3) Done means there is a world of more life to live sure, but full knowledge of truth is persistent and your eyes are not likely to shut again. Hell, I would even agree to 90% of the time and call it good. I don't think that ego could never be agle to get back into control- you still have to deal with it everyday. Done just means not even being concerned with that. Final awakening is not the solution to all your human problems, it is just the finalization of the awakening process. How long does this take post-initial awakening? My current understanding of the teaching for this phase is to keep going like usual. Investigate truth until everything else is burned away. Adjashanit's End of your World and Way of Liberation are the most straightforward sources on this topic that I can find. A bit more cryptic are Jed McKennas books. There has got to be at least a bit more on this. The burning fire that pushed me to get to 4th path is gone and one might say that going for full abiding awakening is just a slow burning process that you can't do much about except let it unfold. Yet, I am curious to explore exactly that. Is there more we can do? I am not seething with suffering, but I will admit this: I know I can never be truly satisfied not being in that wonderful fully awakened state. That sounds very ego-driven as I type it. But that is what I am working with
-Anthony

Just now: This was a perfect find I just read in Rod's "Now" post by Chris Marti. It seemingly contradicts what I am purposing here, but would like to use it to clarify:

"Let's be honest with ourselves and each other - there is no end to human development. There is no "final" to this practice. There is always something more to do, to go deeper, to see the subtleties, to find a new hot button we didn't know we had, to uncover old wounds, fears, and anxieties. It never ends. It's turtles, all the way down, at least until this life is over."

I agree with this. What is different about what I am saying is that there are moments when we are eyes wide open fully awake, and moments where we are not. Can we get to a place where the eyes stay open? Yes, there will always be new development on one axis. But how can you go beyond seeing Truth in real time? How could you go further than only seeing truth and not believing what is false? This is the final place to which I am discussing. I hope that I am conveying this correctly. One of my personal hopes in doing this is to uncover if I am seeing this wrong.

Chris, I am jumping ahead here, but they way you experienced reality during your 4th path, or any other awakening moment, is that always on for you? Do you believe we can get it to an abiding state? Im not saying that is what everyone wants, but I suspect there are many who do and want to know if it is possible. If anyone experiences full abiding awakening at all times (doesn't mean you dont have other development or things to uncover) we need to hear about it.

Anthony, thank you for your candid post - really respect you for sharing it - Ok, I could write a book on this experience but it would probably make no sense to anyone...even to me the day after I wrote it! So will try to be concise and choose my paradoxes carefully for the benefit of all So will pull something together and post it soon.

Some points that come up as I read through your post and reflect on my own experience. You talk of the ego re-building - and of course its the most obvious place to go when checking about being done, however, I have noticed also that the personality becomes clearer, more distinct as filters fall away. This could be mistaken for ego in some ways. The personality doesn't go away, at least not from what I have read and experienced. In fact it becomes more authentic to what it is. I think the personality stays at least until death transition. So in a way the window is cleaner/clearer but its still coloured - a personality with its preferences, talents, tendencies, biases etc. Could this not be confused to some extent with egoic tendencies? Tricky.
The 'desire' to be done could be ego but also could be bodhicitta too. What constitutes bodhicitta is a whole other post I think

Jumping around but responding to your first question:

Do I believe there is an end goal? No I believe its circles and cycles and expansion until there isn't a trace of what manifested as 'me'. I think it neatly folds itself up as each edge is countered with two smaller edges and so on till its folded itself into the fabric of being/not being and no perception of distinction remains. I think the paths are a construct for us to get out of the delusion we believe we are and the reason they are so distinct at the beginning is very similar to the Buddha's approach - connecting with people where there are at and leading them out. This is exactly what the Theravada paths do and whilst its a key point of perplexity for me, after those first 4 paths, it seems to become something that is less relevant to the conventional mind/thoughts. This is why its a mystery and why its a good thing we find another approach to it - or acknowledge an existing approach that may not be comfortable.

Where am I at? Need to spend time describing that. - next post.

Just so I can get the intent clear in my head, is "initial awakening" referring to fourth Path in Therevadan terms, or stream entry?

Anthony Yeshe wrote:
1) No end goal, just an in-the-moment goal to do what is good.
2) Just this.
3) In a practical sense, not in a final or completely done sense, but in a "yeah, this gal/guy can't be confused about awakening anymore", it's knowing the nature of mind and the nature of self. No formula for "getting there" besides clearly seeing the nature of seeking and the nature of the desire to protect the self.

One of the biggest mistakes in advanced practice is thinking that there is a "state" called awakening and that it is always-awakeness or always-knowingness or always-something-ness. One of the biggest con games is bs awakening teachers that tell you it's a state and they can teach you/give you it. Sometimes teachers point toward states to get us to see our blindspots or imagine possibilities but if you listen closely, it's not a state. (Adyashanti does this all the time, points to one thing, then takes it away later in the same sentence or talk.) There is no way a teacher can "teach" or "explain" your self-knot to you, but they can help you find practices that make you prone to seeing it for yourself.

It all goes back to dukka and the ending of dukka. Pre-awakening there is an inherent sense that this moment is wrong and needs to be fixed to protect/benefit the self. Post-awakening, this moment is a given and the notion self (while a useful idea) doesn't inherently need to be protected or improved. What a relief! But life does continue to be lived and there is no end to it. Even the buddha spent the last years of his life relocating the community to strategically avoid the different conflicts that were going on between neighboring tribes.

Hope this helps in some way!

Thanks for starting this topic, Anthony.

My replies:

1. My current status is undetermined and seems to depend on which version of the maps you use. I know something very critical happened to "me" on May 6, 2010, and that event ended my manic search for "The Answer." I've stopped trying to figure it out and now I just go with whatever appears to me from time to time and seems important. I see no end goal, only further development along an almost infinite set of vectors.

2. I see awakening as a moment to moment thing. The beauty of it is that I can be awake at any time. The ugly in that is that I can be ignorant at any time. It all depends on how attentive I am to my circumstances, right this very moment. I'm not sure what "defend" means in this context. It's all just what it is. You can read about my experience here on Awakenetwork, in the "Read" section. What is abundantly obvious, at least to me, is that awakening is not a state. It's more like, well, I dunno, a capability to see the way things really are at any given time, at will. It's also not any kind of permanent change in perception, loss of the personality, a permanent non-dual POV, a loss of the relative POV. No, it's none of those things. What is also obvious is that what we experience through our perceptive mechanisms and mind is indescribable, both relative (dual) and non-dual, all at once. It's an enigma and a conundrum and a mystery, and it's cool and useful as it gets.

3. As I mentioned in #1, I see no final awakening, just a whole series of developmental events, some big, some small, over time. There are people who claim to have final awakening but anyone I know who claims to have awakened, and who I believe is awake, never makes that claim, so... draw your own conclusions but I think the "I have final awakening" claim is either naive (most likely) or just BS.

Anthony --


There is no abiding state that I have found, Anthony. What I have experienced is a capability to see the interplay of senses and mind, in real time, whenever I want - meaning whenever I'm attentive to that view. I do think it's very possible, even likely, that with practice and with motivation and with intention, we can develop the ability to be attentive more and more of the time, such that the ability to see "what's really going on" is infused more and more in our everyday lives. This, for me, is now the task at hand. This is my post-event practice.

I would be thrilled to learn that there is some permanent shift that can occur that will cause a human being to become permanently, unalterably awake for every nano-second of their life without having to change their focus and view, ever. I think, however, that such as thing is a will-o-the-wisp. A tryst at windmills. Not that we shouldn't keep looking.

Hi Anthony,

Thanks for starting this topic. I'll try to participate, but to be honest maps and talking about maps and claims to attainments and trying to define awakening and comparing myself to others and all that stuff has mostly not interested me and often just seemed to get in the way and annoy me. I'm much more interested in the methods and practices themselves. So my answers may not be very satisfying to anyone, least of all myself.

1. I'm here, wherever that is, not going to make any great claims or put any labels on it. No end goal and wouldn't want one. Aren't surprises better? I like to just be curious.
2. Even if it could fit into words, which it doesn't, it would have changed in the next moment so it seems to me a lot of wasted energy to try.
3. I don't.

I guess if I were to give a description of the overall theme of my life and practice at this point in time, it would be the cultivation of increasingly more skillful compassion (something that is without limit). Both moment-to-moment and on more meta levels. I actually asked a well-known and very awake traditional teacher about this awhile back, a guy who's been practicing longer than I've been alive and he has mad meditation skills. "Skillful compassion seems to be the thing--have you figured out anything more, where you're at?" And he said no, that was it. But it really doesn't sound very glamorous, does it?

You made a comment in your other post about a mantra of "further." I remember that used to work for me and it led to a lot of interesting places. But these days, my mantra is "nearer." Because it's always right here, closer than close.

Tom Otvos wrote:
Fourth path in pragmatic dharma terms, although I am aware that there is no consensus about it (hence this thread). E.g.: Daniel has no use for the term “technical fourth path,” whereas others use it all the time. That is what I was diagnosed as having.

ETA: Fourth in Therevadan fetter model terms is way out there, beyond the beyond. Some people claim that what pragmatic types call fourth is no more than fetter model Stream Entry, in fact. Not sure what to say about that.

“Here are some questions to start:
1) Where are you at currently and honestly tell us where your end goal is. Do you believe there is an end goal (It depends how you approach this philosophically)
2) Defend/explain your experience(s) of awakening. What is it like for you not being in this state 24/7 once having experienced it at least once? How do you know it was the real deal? This is dangerous but it can be helpful to compare notes
3) What is your definition as final awakening/enlightenment/done? How do we get there? Who has this info sufficiently spelled out?”

1) I experienced fourth path in October, 2013, almost five years ago. I don’t know what my end goal is, but I have felt stuck a bit. I don’t believe there is an end to one’s development. Like you, I often feel like an imposter, as if it didn’t really “count.” Also, I stopped practicing for a good three years (except here and there), tried to claw my way back, and have had none of the driving motivation of pre-fourth. In general, though, there have been shifts subsequently, and feeling as if a lot of things that once were problems are no longer a big deal. My life has also been a shitstorm in the past five years, so I’ve had other stuff to think about, although I must confess the lower level of ruminattion and taking things personally has meant a LOT.

2) My experience of awakening was looking out of the kitchen window, seeing the trees in my neighbor’s yard, and realizing, “This is it. This is all. Just this.” Can’t really defend it, but I felt like, wait a minute, was that it, and laughing. I got positive reinforcement from other people that that really was it (teachers, mentors here). People told me that my report was the worst enlightenment porn they’d ever heard.

3) No idea and no idea, but there’s a book called “Halfway up the Mountain” that I’ll suggest. I agree with others here that post-fourth people need better guidance and it would be really cool if we could help each other right here. So let’s keep this up! It’ll help pre-pathers as well to get a sense of what lies ahead. It’s possible that getting lots of rapid progress does leave a person with a lot more to do after the fact, so those of you taking longer, don’t feel like you’re not “accomplishing” anything.

1) Where I am at:
* Fundamentally content but realising that practice is still important as the everyday relative world can easily prevail and whilst so far it has never shaken the fundamental contentment I experience, I am aware that practice will help further override the mental habituation (and the world we live in) towards separateness.
* The intellectual tendency/habituation to validate the experience (a reaction to the bewildering changed perspective) has faded significantly - Ha! as a scientist, thats a big deal
* Its hard to remember what experience used to be like before this 'journey' began - almost as hard as it was to envision what it might be like after awakening - such different territory and yet so ordinary.
2) The last big shift was in 28th October, 2013 where there was a massive build up of energy in the crown over several weeks, when doing jhanas it would go straight to the 8th (its all in my log) etc then one night it just stopped and there was complete silence and stillness. Then a dream of flying and freedom, then 2 years of bliss out with gradual return of thoughts but no centre (although that had been developing since stream entry), fundamental contentment, everything was like watching a movie. and in he words of the Buddha 'in the seen just the seen..etc' were experienced. The newness of this lasted for months, and gradually the bliss out after a couple of years came back to earth and thoughts returned. There were points where it was really difficult to function - I had to do something and there was nothing to offer - no ideas, no thoughts etc but always something came - it was weird. Eventually it all normalised. If I had sat in a cave alone, maybe it would have continued that way and maybe thats what happens to some monks/lamas? Am I in this state 24/7? – For about 2 years guess I was and now its more functional and integrated - It shifts and flows like a river, running in different shades and colours – the good thing is that I am sensitive to that and am aware of it.

3) Do I feel done? Well not really as I don’t believe there is a ‘done’ point - I am however very content, if something is irritating, its dropped very quickly and not retained, same with positive emotions too, I am not even sure what the point of the rest of my life is other than to keep being open to expanded awareness. I have had very little struggle on this journey - am I deluded? However, there has been an awakening, a fundamental shift(s), the centre did fall away and hasn't re-built. The personality has become clearer and simpler with less filtering. When I look within there is vast nothingness and contentment prevails - always there. I am aware of multiple perspectives all running at the same time - all relative, sitting over the top of this fundamental contentment and emptiness. For example on one level there is a need to find purpose, meaning and practice toward a goal, on a more fundamental level it just doesn't matter.

So what to do when everything neatly makes no sense and cancels itself out and with being ok with that? = no drive to do anything about it But it amounts to bobbing around like a cork (or a piece of plastic!) in the Pacific Ocean so until I become the ocean completely, it would be good to either aid that process or help other 'bits of plastic' to bob around more usefully as well!
So I also think this is a useful discussion and hopefully will be useful to us all.

-Tom
Lets say that "initial awakening" is any experience where you saw truth of reality. The illusion of self was dispelled (however breifly!) but that knowing did not last and was not the end of its process. Many of us certainly went the nana/path route, but others report the same experience of awakening from different practices/systems, not all of them buddhist.

The pragmatic dharma movement made great strides to sand down the mystery and make this more accessible and understandable. I would argue that "nothing to do, know where to go"; "no end-goal", and "getting awakening to an abiding state is not the enlightened view" are all valid viewpoints once you are there at that level. Can this be said to actually be the end-goal? To feel that way? It still seems to mystified to me. I have often found myself in a place where I am completely un-invested with my current progress and perfectly fine with the amount of awake moments I perceive from time to time. But that place doesn't last either. Make note that I am not making this about how much suffering or craving I experience - the only issue I stand for right now is about how much ignorance I experience. Call it, moments were truth is perfectly known, and moments where I am knocking on the door and can't get it.

The exercise here is the ask honestly, how much awakening is enough for you to call it good? If you wouldn't mind a few more moments per day where you don't slide into ignorance, then that is what I want to talk about! Is this an asymptotic climb? Always making some progress, never reaching a place called truly done?

-Shargrol

I've been troubled by trying to use simple language here. I don't want to create any more dharma terms, I don't want to use hard to define or sanskrit words either, just simple English as much as possible. I use terms like "state" knowingly so for two reasons 1) It is impossible anyways to define awakening using words. You know, the whole, The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao. 2) I am hoping we are all on the same page on this and know that we have to use insufficient terms to explain something so subtle.

Instead of saying the "state of awakening", I could use Jed McKenna's "Untruth Unrealization". It makes sense, awakening is knowing of truth and not believing untruth. I would like to not believe untruth anymore. I would define final awakening as the "state -bear with me on that" where you can no longer go back into division/ duality. The mind/self are there as always but unable to trick you. I want to be flexible in this not extremist. Can we give this always truth-knowing state a 99% of the time rating? I would be good with that. Get a fully enlightened person super drunk and I bet they would lose their composure. I am not suggesting anything supernatural, I see it as maybe.. "like riding a bike" phenomenon, an ability not likely to ever be lost, barring a car accident.

Why does this shake us up to think that is unattainable? It shakes me up. It probably shakes up beginners to think, "Wait, this enlightenment thing is not 'on' all the time once you get there? Well then, what's the point?" Of course we know any amount of it is definitely worth it, but I don't think we are being honest enough with the world about what is really going on at the post-awakening life.

I do think there are people who kept going till they became fully awakened or "99 percenters". Ramana marharshi once said that that (super paraphrase here), "Ya ego still arises. I just instantly see it for what it is" But those people are not a resource for us. And isn't if funny that we instantly dislike/distrust anyone who would claim such a thing as a "final awakening"? I mean how screwed up is that. There may be many out there who could expertly comment about the clearest/straightest route from initial awakening to full awakening but they would have to "out" themselves as also having gotten there - something that would damage their reputation. Damn, despite my own insistence on this, I wouldn't want to claim that either. This is what we are dealing with folks. Paradox, all the way down...

I often like to restate things as succinctly as possible after dealing with an issue for awhile. It helps check my understanding and keeps it fresh. So here is my main issue restated at the most simple level that I can:
The moments of my awakening (during 4th path itself and a few times afterwards) were great, nothing more to do or grasp or progress towards. That changed my mind/self complex forever. Those perfectly clear and knowing of truth moments did not last. While life now is not driven by fear of unknowing truth, and I enjoy all the other benefits of continued practice and development (when I get around to doing it), I still have this insatiable idea that initial awakening lets you know that it is real and knowable and you are not yet done until truth is the only thing you can see and you can no longer believe untruth.

Lets talk about that tricky ol'ego and its role in all of this. I am always in awe and respect of its ability to slide back in. I suggest two possibilities a) without the fire that was present to push you to initial awakening ego is using your new-relaxed post-awakening state as a way to keep you from looking any further, or b) I am being misled by ego by making a very bravado approach to getting more gains and attainments. I concede it does look that way.

I neglected my life so much progressing towards 4th path. Afterwards I had a ton of extra energy and the loss of the hot buring fire that took me there. I spent the next few years forgetting about meditation/contemplation of truth and focused on rebuilding my life/career/relationships. I think that is one end of the spectrum that can occur. The other end may be those who continue to develop and eventually hit a plateau and call it good. Also, we all know what it looks like when someone suddenly makes a breakthrough or a next stage in development and we ask, "Huh, how many turtles down is this thing?" It could be turtles all the way down, or it could just be something we haven't publicly figured out yet or only people/teachers who do not post online know about and only teach to a select few.

Either way, funky stuff happens to us for years after initial awakening. It seems apparent that something is going on. And if something is going on, where is it going? I like to think it is going somewhere and not just a trailing edge were we stop asking. Or is "done" simply the point in which where we realize there is not such a thing?

I am loving the replies so far. Let's keep this going and ask the tough questions. I know I feel embarrassed and vulnerable. I appreciate your efforts as well.

Laurel Carrington wrote:
Thanks, it is good to know I am not alone. I would like to become permanently unstuck. Then focus on all the other development stuff. I hypothesize there is a critical mass part of the awakening process where you could never get stuck again. Just like you can now no longer forget 2+2=4. I somehow would also like to separate that concept from all other development processes.

Additionally, Shargrol said it well ,""yeah, this gal/guy can't be confused about awakening anymore"". This was 4th path for me. Im not confused about what it is anymore, just not seeing truth clearly all the time and prone to be stuck more often than not. I can see that being "stuck" is not an issue for some.

Chis said, "There is no abiding state that I have found, Anthony. What I have experienced is a capability to see the interplay of senses and mind, in real time, whenever I want - meaning whenever I'm attentive to that view. I do think it's very possible, even likely, that with practice and with motivation and with intention, we can develop the ability to be attentive more and more of the time, such that the ability to see "what's really going on" is infused more and more in our everyday lives. This, for me, is now the task at hand. This is my post-event practice."

also, "I see no end goal, only further development along an almost infinite set of vectors."

Maybe if we separate development (concentration, well-being, compassion, and many others) from being different from finally being able to see "what's really going on" as an established and relatively permanent human ability?

We can only probably separate this conceptually as development includes all things, but I just want to single out this truth knowing thing and explore if it can be finalized or not. I doesn't seem that anyone believes it can be done. Are back to the "enlightenment" takes thousands of lifetimes to achieve model?

This truth knowing thing can be finalized.

Great to hear. But how? We need clear instructions and personal experiences. Tell us your story

It's not about me.

What kind of instructions are you looking for?

Post-awakening. Do we continue the same practices that got us the first awakening? The post-awakening funk is different than what we have experienced pushing towards our first knowing of truth. How do you get to finalized truth knowing? More of the same noting or counting breaths? Or, as I suspect, something a bit different.

It depends on where you are at. Everyone is different and that's why there are so many practices.

What seems to be giving you a problem when you sit for 60 minutes? What seems to be giving you a problem off cushion?

My problem is not having finalized truth knowing. What do you suggest for that?

shargrol wrote:
Please don't hold back on this. We need some input. No one is holding you accountable for having the answers, but with a statement like this, we need to hear your thoughts.

Could you be more specific? What makes you think you don't know the final truth?

What I'm trying to figure out is how this causes a particular problem in your life. That's the doorway.

Or at least it was for me.