jgroove's practice journal

"And, I remember (I'll have to get this book again) in Kornfield's "Living Buddhist Masters" one of the masters was a strict woman who just seemed to only teach an awareness of one's desire to change posture due to a desire to escape subtle pain and suffering."

Looked it up (great book, by the way): that was Achaan Naeb, a Burmese teacher. Very simple, direct and difficult practice... I've often thought of it over the years but didn't realize that this is where I had read about it.

Interesting. I seem to be avoiding psychological pain rather than the physical stuff. There's nothing I hate more than trying to meditate when I'm really sleepy. Something about the dichotomy between the practice being easy and effortless vs. what happens when sloth and torpor arise...yuck.

I hear you, prefer somewhat intense pain over sleepy head rolling. Sitting while sleeping usually seems like a waste of time. Though it's often said to have value.

"I seem to be avoiding psychological pain rather than the physical stuff. There's nothing I hate more than trying to meditate when I'm really sleepy."-jgroove

Joel, see if you can make the connection between the mind state of sleepiness and the physical sensations of sleepiness. It's likely that what you are reacting to is a constellation of subtle, unpleasant sensations rather than the mind state per se. Sleepiness, is normal, of course, so you don't want to make an enemy of it or try to vanquish it; just see it clearly in realtime as a kind of syndrome with characteristic sensations, mind states, and thoughts. And be especially aware of the aversion to sleepiness, with its corresponding sensations.

I'm starting to question whether it's possible to experience pure psychological pain devoid of physical suffering; every time I look closely, I see that with each difficult thought or mind state there is a corresponding physical sensation and it is only my unwillingness to be with the physical sensation that causes suffering. According to this hypothesis, the answer is to make the connection between the thought, the mind state, and the body sensation as it's happening. Obsessive thoughts, for example, or nagging mind states like resentment or anxiety are able to continue endlessly because we don't see how much they physically hurt. When you can see in the moment that nagging thoughts, difficult mind states, and physical discomfort are not only connected but literally part and parcel of the same thing, it's natural and effortless to let go of the suffering.

So the body is the fulcrum and making the connection in realtime is the lever.

Hi Kenneth,

THis is my experience as well. Every mind state or thought pattern seems to have a physical component which seems like the trigger. I came to this conclusion long ago after coming in contact with the Goenka tradition in which the view that every mental phenomena has a physical component to observe therefore impeding the mentla reaction. I remember on my 2nd 10 day course realising that most of the mental content that I was feeling within my mind as mindstates and emotions where originating at the heart and throat areas in the chakra spots. I gained a lot of control over my mind from resting all attention on those physical sensations for long periods, essentially cutting off the mental component and thus causing myself less misery through reaction. I got really good at doing this. That is why I find this practice of the lightning rod to be a returning to the original practice that I started 10 years ago. I am surprised to see that it is something you are seemingly only now considering to be the case. I always thought it was a given.

Concerning the sleepiness. I located where sleepiness was being triggered. For me it was a strong heavy flow of vibrations that would arise at the chest/heart spot and the mentla reaction to those sensations was to get really sleepy. i managed to develop enough mentla determination to observe jsut the sensations at the chest and cut the mental reaction of wandering or falling alseep. It got to the point where I was so disembedded or equanimous with those sleepy sensations, they wouldn't affect me in any way and they just became an object to stare at and eventually see that sleepiness pass away. I found there were two types of sleepiness. One that was more to do with lack of sleep or mental and physical exhastion and the other was due to meditating, like the body was giving a kick from within and the result was that heavy flow of sleepy vibrations at the heart spot.

there has been a lot of research about this. physical pain and mental pain are always linked.
there have been experiments in which it was proven that it is the mind that decides whether or not a feeling or sensation is good or bad

"So the body is the fulcrum and making the connection in realtime is the lever."

Thanks, Kenneth.
I'll take a closer look at this. I like the fact that the obstacle is starting to seem more like a gate or an opportunity to see more.
I hope to have more notes soon.
Joel

"I am surprised to see that [the linking of mental and physical phenomena] is something you are seemingly only now considering to be the case. I always thought it was a given."-Nick

Hi Nick,

Like you, I first learned of the concept from Goenka. When I was at Panditarama in Rangoon in 1992/93, one of the Burmese yogis gave me a copy of Mr. Goenka's book. I was very impressed by Goenka's analysis and was able to see right away that every mental event seemed to have a corresponding physical sensation and feeling tone (vedana), just as Goenka asserted. The difference now is just that I feel I am seeing this at a deeper level than I have seen it before; I believe I understand what the Buddha meant by "tanha," "lobha," "dosa," and "moha." The level of clarity about what these concepts point to has increased throughout the years, of course, and I can only imagine that this trend will continue. The reason I am using tentative language like "hypothesis" is that I am finding that my own insight is limited primarily by my assumptions; if I "take as a given" anything at all, even when it is verified in my own experience, the mind and body contract around that idea. I am finding that freedom from suffering lies in not taking anything as a given, especially what I think I have known for 10 or 20 or 30 years.

(cont'd)

There is nothing wrong with fragmented mode. For most people, I think mastering fragmented mode via vipassana is prerequisite to stabilizing in direct mode. Mastering vipassana means 4th Path. There may be some exceptions like Eckhart Tolle, etc., but for most of us vipassana is essential. So the idea here is not to set up some kind of a contest where people compete with each other to crow about how undivided they are. The idea is for each of us to come to the end of suffering. The three speed transmission applies as always; if you can "be as you are" in direct mode, whole, complete, and without suffering, do that. If not, downshift to vipassana and note.

"That is why I find this practice of the lightning rod to be a returning to the original practice that I started 10 years ago."-Nick

Maybe, but remember that it is important to distinguish between two modes of attention: direct mode and what might be called fragmented mode. Goenka's practice of body sweeping, as I understand it, is a vipassana practice that aims at and cultivates fragmented mode, so it is not the same as the lightning rod, which is a direct mode practice. If you are experiencing jhanas, nanas, cycles, particulate vibrations, fluttering mental field, etc., you are in fragmented mode. In order to cultivate the lightning rod or any direct mode practice, you must remain whole, undivided, grounding all movement within the whole. The mind does not stop moving, and the experience is dynamic, but there is no division of attention wherein one aspect of mind can stand apart from and evaluate any other. There is just raw, unfiltered experience in all its glory. This includes all six sense doors as defined in Buddhism, i.e., seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling, and thinking. And because the experience is undivided, every thought is necesarily experienced in the body. In my experience, though, as soon as I start body sweeping or controlling or picking apart the experience in any way, I am instantly back into fragmented mode.

(cont'd)

"I like the fact that the obstacle is starting to seem more like a gate or an opportunity to see more."-jgroove

Yes! This kind of attitude will definitely get it done, Joel. When the apparent obstacles are co-opted into allies in your own awakening, there is nothing left in your way.

Hi Kenneth,

Thanks for that explanation. I understand the fragmented versus direct mode. When I started the sweeping method, I soon found out that U Ba Khin, Goenka's teacher taught his close students to centre all their attention at the flow of sensations at the heart spot. Being quite the rebel, I decided to do just that at all times. I essentially stopped sweeping. I did this for over 9 years. I never told any of the teachers. Later I found out Goenka taught to focus there on the long 30 day courses but only for 5 minutes at a time. I was focused their non-stop all day. It became a strong habit. I would feel an emotion arise, or negative thought pattern and the mind would quickly jump to the sensation that was triggering it and stay there. I think my cocnetration and ability to not react and be equnimous with phenomena was developed because of this. Most if not all of the emotions I experienced seemed triggered by sensations at the throat and heart spots. So when I say, I am returning to my practice of years ago, it's certainly not the sweeping method, but the centering on the physical triggers for mind states, emotions and thought patterns.

When i said, I thought it was a given, I meant I thought all advanced yogis were seeing that. I always assumed it to be what yogis universally come across. So it seems like a surprise to hear others say that it's not.

"When I started the sweeping method, I soon found out that U Ba Khin, Goenka's teacher taught his close students to centre all their attention at the flow of sensations at the heart spot. Being quite the rebel, I decided to do just that at all times. I essentially stopped sweeping. I did this for over 9 years. I never told any of the teachers. Later I found out Goenka taught to focus there on the long 30 day courses but only for 5 minutes at a time. I was focused their non-stop all day.-Nikolai"

That's really interesting, Nick, thanks for the clarification! I find it fascinating that sweeping tends to stimulate fragmented mode while keeping the attention on the whole body in a particular way tends to bring about direct mode.

I think of a fish tank. When you are the entire tank, you can feel every wriggle of every fish in the tank without having to zero in on the fish or chase them around. This is due to the incompressibility of water. So what we are talking about is the incompressibility of mind. When you "are the wave" as opposed to picking apart the wave, everything that goes on in the mind and body can be felt as part of the whole. This holistic vision allows us to see tanha in realtime and let it down. Hence, the lack of suffering in the direct mode. This is the 3rd Noble truth in action.

"there has been a lot of research about this. physical pain and mental pain are always linked.
there have been experiments in which it was proven that it is the mind that decides whether or not a feeling or sensation is good or bad"

This makes a lot of sense, Mike. One can see this with the different relationship you can get to something like leg pain, so long as you don't allow the mind to run with the ball that "this is bad, I don't like it and it should stop." So, on some level, my mind is putting all of the sensations related to sleepiness into the "bad, don't like it" category and then I'm stacking the aversion--trying to bargain it away. Hmmmm....

A couple of nod-off, noting-aloud sessions earlier today that were very tough for me and overly diffuse, and then a very powerful sit tonight at our weekly meeting. Strong concentration that enabled me to see aversion at work very clearly--not so much with a sense of trying to escape the unpleasant sensation (my leg was on fire) or the aversion, but more out of curiosity, to see if I could REALLY notice the aversion coming into play in response to the sensations. Seemed like this is what was happening. Normally, I just automatically label a pain as unpleasant, maybe without seeing the aversion itself arise as clearly and distinctly as I might.
Noting/noticing went very fast for the most part and the sit was very spacious and energetic. My leg was full of all kinds of pain but it was OK. More kriyas, absorption-type stuff.
In addition to myself, we've now had two other KFD'ers show up at our insight meditation group. Cool to be sitting there talking about Kenneth and Mahasi and MCTB tonight.

Very cool Joel! I hope to sit with you guys again soon, maybe the week of Thanksgiving.

"Very cool Joel! I hope to sit with you guys again soon, maybe the week of Thanksgiving."

Hi Nadav.
That would be great. Hope to see you soon!

60 min. noting aloud
resolved three times to note aloud once per second for the entire 60 minutes and to arouse energy, despite sleepiness

The resolution seemed to help a bit--I would catch myself and come out of it when I drifted off or fell asleep. I seemed to notice more clearly the instances where I was remembering what I had been doing, rather than labeling it in the moment. There would be a moment of snapping back to the present, remembering what had been going on, and then the note: "remembering imagining thought" or "remembering visual thought." Noted some slightly more subtle physical sensations such as "dryness, irritation" of the eyeball, "wanting to blink," etc. Very sleepy but tried to notice, note and disembed from the feeling of sleepiness as much as possible. Tried to pay attention to aversion as it came up. Had a few moments of "peacefulness, appreciation," but did not note these as pleasant, which it occurs to me now would have been taking it a step further. "restlessness," "boredom," "wanting" (the bell to ring, the sleepiness to go away), "doubting thoughts" (I suck at this; this isn't working for me), "timer curiosity." A lot of planning thoughts, future thoughts, dharma-related imagined scenarios. "Concern," "unhappiness," "dread" (of the coming hour of slogging it out). Seeing, hearing, looking, investigating, intending to listen/listening, intending to look/looking, intending to shift/shifting, tingling-pain/unpleasant (leg falling asleep), warmth, touching, pressure, coolness, yawning, swaying, nodding, itching, wanting to scratch, third-eye pressure, tension, intending to relax tension, relaxing...

60 min. noting aloud

pressure (contact w' cushion), third-eye pressure, swaying, nodding, itching, hearing/unpleasant (literally--a construction crew jackhammering the concrete outside my house!), curiosity (what the hell are they doing?), irritation, amusement at the volume of racket. Within the hearing: intending to listen, listening (ringing in ears); tried to listen only to the silence-within-the-noise; "this, this" (sense of spaciousness).
Imagining, future thought, reporting thought, intending to investigate/look, investigating/looking, seeing (darkness, red-, blue-, white-tinged pixels), appreciation, happiness (a response to relative ease of sit), wanting to straighten/straightening, aching/unpleasant (falling-asleep leg, aching of hips, back, increasing pressure of contact points with cushion), warmth-softness/pleasant (feeling of shirt on body), coolness-coldness/neutral-to-unpleasant (cold air around body, coldness of legs, feet), pressure (crown), anticipation (of bell ringing), timer curiosity.
Tension/wanting to relax tension, intending to relax tension in entire head, relaxing, relaxing (pleasant). Tension/wanting to relax tension, intending to relax tension in entire body, relaxing, relaxing (pleasant). Remembering. Regret, unpleasant.
No sleepiness, for the most part, during this sit. However, I was actively doing some stuff here that might be considered not a part of the noting technique. For example, deciding to relax different parts of the body, or deciding to listen carefully or look carefully. I guess this is OK and falls into the category of experimenting. However, this stuff does seem like an interruption from once-a-second noting and probably carries with it some spacing-out potential. Hmmm...

Sensational report, Joel. Based on my own experience and my experience of observing other yogis, this kind of effort always leads to progress. At this stage, there are no secrets, just lots of persistence, patience, and diligent effort, and you are doing exactly what is required. Keep it up!

Kenneth

"Sensational report, Joel. Based on my own experience and my experience of observing other yogis, this kind of effort always leads to progress. At this stage, there are no secrets, just lots of persistence, patience, and diligent effort, and you are doing exactly what is required. Keep it up!

Kenneth"

Thanks, Kenneth.
Next, to throw a hand grenade--with metta--at this construction crew outside my house.

From the Bhagavad Gita Chapters 2.56.

"One who is not disturbed in mind even amidst the threefold miseries or elated when there is happiness, and who is free from attachment, fear and anger, is called a sage of steady mind."

Apropos of our chat yesterday and of this thread as well. I don't know if every tradition gets there in the same way, and I don't know if its a timely state for all persons, but my new (and quite old) idea is that the expected result is pretty much the same all around. Total absence of suffering. The whole mystical literature is just infused with the claim.

In retrospect, I probably could have titled this thread "My Struggle with Suffering." (I need to get rid of the "my" and the "struggle" and then maybe the suffering will take care of itself!)

As Kenneth said, "The cause of suffering is tanha. Tanha is the tendency of the mind to want anything other than what is happening right now."
Word.

Nutty week. My prized, 1999 Chevy Malibu--kidding-- finally expired and was hauled to the dump. American cars: It had only about 100,000 miles on it, but the engine was full of ground-up bearings. The basement where my in-laws live started getting water coming up either from the foundation or some kind of plumbing leak. Tons and tons of work due, so much so that I felt I couldn't spare time for meditation at all in the mornings. I'd tell myself that I'd sit at night, which I did a few times. But I basically didn't practice for several days last week. It's funny how easy it is to not sit when confronted by situations that call for even more presence and disembedding. Did some samatha and noting practice this morning. I'll try to sit a lot more this week. There's a half-day vipassana thing that I'll be going to this coming Sunday.

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