A&P or Bust

Sitting tonight noting physical sensations and mental images, I noticed that physical sensations can simply be directly felt/seen without forming a mental representation, so they are *really seen* in real time. Meanwhile, mental images of something else, self image splotches, whatever, can still be happening and they can be seen directly along with the physical sensations. Something about that was striking, like seeing it closer to the way it really works. Since they are both happening, they are presenting in awareness, why wouldn't one simply be able to know that, rather than having to form a concept of seeing them. It occurred to me that when noting mental images that often means making an image of the image rather than just seeing the image directly. It seems that being non-manipulative, just accepting how things are presenting, is key somehow to directly seeing things in real time.

Earlier I was walking with my daughter and thought about how simple it seemed to watch my mind and body when not that long ago it seemed very difficult to do that when up and about. And I remembered that I used to experience noting as an active looking at things whereas this is more like a passive receiving, the objects are more received by the awareness, rather than going out to see them. Who knows if even I'll know what I'm talking about tomorrow.

I had a very very similar insight last week and that seemed to really open things up. I'm excited to see what happens (post 18).

HI mumuwu. Yeah, your post 18 does sound familiar. I remember reading that at the time and didn't have a vivid sense of what you were talking about. Just figured, sounds like he's engaged with his practice. A lot of times there are little insights in a sitting that seem so exhilarating and then a couple of days later it's just words that don't convey anything palpable. Sometimes the insights feel more like entering new territory. This is starting to seem like that. What I wrote last night still makes sense to me for example A lot of the time your practice notes are hard for me to understand, kind of like when I look at the code of young, incredibly intelligent programmers. I'm glad you're devoting your brilliant youthful energies to this work!

am sitting 30 mins. Didn't have much time to sit today so resolved to note everything right from the start. As it happened, settled right into a noting groove, noticing images, thoughts and physical sensations. At one point there was a feeling that this range of sensations was all available and I had the luxury to pick some and focus on them without feeling like I was fishing for something or being manipulative. My practice has momentum right now, I wonder if that can be nurtured along rather than lost.

You'll do very well if you just keep doing what you're doing - noting and watching the actual process of perception. It's the key to the kingdom of first gear.

A carp among dragons,
the heart stirs with the sound of their wings.
Fins!...,
fly!

A busy day yesterday but it felt like a retreat day at times. Then to read Mike's life is a retreat and Kenneth's just do it. It feels like retreat energy! Not just my efforts, that's for sure.

AM sitting. 1 hour. Resolved to note like my life depended on it on sitting down. Might have to start using a timer, a solid hour of noting flew by. Now I resolve to note all day whenever I can remember to, including right now.

Resolving to note all day on a work day is fairly Quixotic, my job is essentially solving and working out intellectual puzzles at the computer for hours on end, interrupted by meetings. There's hope for noting at meetings but during active intellectual engagement at the PC that still seems like a big challenge. Kenneth advised being a little less productive and taking explicit breaks here and there to let go of ultra cognitive mode and slip into some mindfulness. Resolving to do the seemingly impossible at least meant that I did something closer to Kenneth's suggestion. And trying to catch the trips to the water cooler and the men's room.

My daughter asked me to join her at her Kriya service which means an extra hour and 1/2 of meditation and what we both seem to regard as quality time together. It's amazing to me that she is willing to sit still for that long each week. Works for me. Did another 1/2 hour at home. There's momentum for relatively fast noting right now, ever 1/2 second to 2 seconds trying to catch whatever is dominant. cmarti's tip to look for changing mental context has opened up a new range, noticing the changes in mental-image stage props & feeling tone. Reminded of Kenneth's U Pandita quote about temporary end of suffering because when I started to feel dismay about something in the mind all I had to do was look more closely for a discrete sensation and the suffering quality would stop.

AM Sitting 45 mins. The resolve I had yesterday to note ferociously from start to finish felt contrived at the start of today's sit. Just noted the 1/2-way resolve and then had a more normal sitting with substantial time lost in thought. Some kind of concentration threshold was obvious yesterday and I could simply stay on the other side of it. Today couldn't quite remember how to find that, much less stay on the other side of it. The usual ups and downs but my commitment remains high. Looks like it's shaping up to go to a rare 7 day retreat in 4 or 5 months. I intend to have such a strong practice at that point, that it will be plausible to get 1st path.

"Looks like it's shaping up to go to a rare 7 day retreat in 4 or 5 months. I intend to have such a strong practice at that point, that it will be plausible to get 1st path."


Thats the spirit!

"Kenneth advised being a little less productive and taking explicit breaks here and there"

a few suggestions to facilitate this...I have a watch with a vibrator (search for vibrating watch/timer) which I set to go off every half hour or so... a great discrete reminder to take a break (Im a programmer aswell). Also if you run into reluctance at breaking away from a task or thoughts from the task still overwhelms the mindfulness, write a note of exactly where you're at so you can bargain with yourself that you can start back up exactly where you left off running and with a fresh perspective.

Incidentally I also have a little routine of self-massage/flexing joints etc to 'embody' as programming is such heady stuff.

in sangha,
sparqi

funny you mention the stretching. I find myself doing it a lot lately in response to pains and aches that I think have always been there, but I was not conscious of them.

Another think I found pretty fun was watching for eye blinks. That helped me stay pretty present.

sparqi, the vibrating watch sounds good, been meaning to get a watch. How do you do it? -- programming, watch vibrates, stop registering the screen, close your eyes, meditate in place for a couple of minutes, something like that? mumuwu, eye blinking sounds good for meetings, I'll make a note to try that.

AM sitting: 1 hour, 45 mins. I'm trying to write about this sitting just for feedback purposes. Resolved to notice as much of the range of sensations as possible and note much of that. My working conclusion is that, all the practices I've tried this year are good, but comprehensive detailed noting seems best for me. Day before yesterday I got to what was for me a vipassana/concentration threshold by sense of feel, through alert, passive presence but without really seeing how it was happening. Yesterday could remember the feel but not how to get back to it. (Yesterday sitting after intense insomnia. Today after a good night's sleep. Seems to be a loose connection there.) Today I accidently got back to my threshold through seeing/noting and so this time I caught what some of the components were and became conscious of some aspects of sitting that I think I haven't seen like this before.

Felt like my brain was squeezing and generating lots of brightly lit visuals, but didn't embed in that, just figured it was low-grade migraine and noted it. Then starting noting the difference between retinal images, mental images and head sensations. And remembered that this has been a fruitful way to play with disembedding from self image, which I'd found sometimes embeds as a combination of those things. Previously I've got to the point of catching all 3 of those and feeling like the embedded sense of self had released form those and fallen back to something more background.

This time when it happened I was "journaling" talking about it as if for this journal but rather than thinking "oh, **** I'm thinking: Journaling! Journaling! Journaling!" => noting with a "you bad" tone! Instead noticed it more neutrally as an occurrence that seemed centered in the throat and for the 1st time I was including an observable aspect of thinking with images, sights and feelings in the disembedding. As it happened the thought stopped, throat chakra stopped leaking or something like that and I was over that concentration threshold again but this time I saw that, yes it was passive, alert, present, concentrated but the point seemed to be that it was disembedded. The seeing and dis-embedding is what had those side results. Checked my clock, an hour and 5 mins. Felt like, "well time to start the day", but there was no pain, body was nicely settled, why not keep sitting. Noticed some irritation and restlessness that had a funny quality to it, maybe just that I wasn't embedded in it so it seemed kind of amusing. Wondered if I might be passing through a nana I don't know about with those qualities. Have to read up on nanas above 3 later.

Kept going and started getting the post-hour physical stuff. Energy rushes and tension in the head but just noted it and realized I often embed in that. Mental images of me having intense energy etc, just noted. Body started whipping from side to side while neck and head swung the other way. I'd hurt myself if I tried to do that but have learned it's ok if I just let it happen while sitting but this time noted the embedding that can happen with this, images of it happening to me, word/thoughts about it. Used the momentum for noting self image, sight, physical tension, thought/word all together to not only relax back from and watch the physicals but to disembed from it. Next came the screaming evil demon image, I've got to that a number of times over the years but never disembedded from it to the extent of today. Starting getting to the point where it was a lot like just another sensation. (While keeping an eye on the outrageous image, drilled into the detailed jaw sensations of the silent scream). Then my wrists starting shaking intensely, felt almost like animal paws and strange images, noted that but focus was intently on the self-images, thought/words and other embedding points I could find. That played out and my chronically tight jaw did an intense wiggling unloosening. In the meantime my household is waking up and my wife was sipping coffee nearby while I'm acting like a psycho on my cushion, flailing body parts, making odd sighs and feeling under pressure to start getting productive. But it could all be noted with that disembedding momentum so just didn't want to stop because knew this was forging into newish territory. At one point fell into heart and felt compassion for all the stuff from which disembedding.

Disappointed after the sitting while running around doing errands and engaging people didn't have a confirming experience of having extra meditation-in-action muscles. Meditating so intently on self image, thought and head sensations I think left me feeling kind of ungrounded. Seemed like asking What knows this? was the best handle I could get on the busyness (but having some problem with feeling aversion to that practice lately). Oh well, onward.

"sparqi, the vibrating watch sounds good, been meaning to get a watch. How do you do it? -- programming, watch vibrates, stop registering the screen, close your eyes, meditate in place for a couple of minutes, something like that?"

sounds like a plan!

The main thing for me is its a 'state' breaker...when I program I can be so into it, so tunnel/narrow minded, under a deadline and so forth...and breaking concentration seems to be the last thing I want or to think about...the vibration acts to remind (like a hypnotic anchor) of a wider view & more important things!! Works for me, most of the time...although when time pressure is high it gets trumped most of the time.

"At one point fell into heart and felt compassion for all the stuff from which disembedding."

nice!

am sittings, 2.5 hours. Continued with attempting comprehensive detailed noting, including self-image, thoughts at the larynx, feelings and sounds. Feeling calm and quiet today and that has a certain clarity but without the intense, continuous investigative capability of yesterday. Very easy to sit, feel like I could keep going all day, but kept trying to rouse more precision and investigation. While writing this I'm trying to honor the state, which is still happening and see and accept what it has to offer.

Usually fast noting feels like trying to remain open to instantaneous fragments from accross the sense groups. Lately it has sometimes seemed like the sense groups are more of a flow and that it is possible to observe the flows independently of each other, like the flow of head sensations and the flow of mental images at the same time. It feels like a degree of disembedding happens with catching how the mental images flow and how that flow is distinguishable from another. Catching 2 flows at once is doable for brief periods, and switching which flows, but haven't been able to get 3 going at once, except maybe briefly yesterday.

Nice - keep going!

I remain pretty unclear about the theory of the nanas and how to map those to practice in a practical way. The way they are often described as quick and low-key experiences that may require close attention to notice and identify as they transition and cycle, seems like maybe I'm not stuck at 3rd nana after all. Did enough sitting this morning to be almost like in retreat and when some pain showed up in a knee, examined it, it was tingly and wavey and shortly dispersed. That doesn't seem to match experience of pain as solid and contiunous in retreat.
On the other hand seeing through concepts and penetrating objects seems like it should go way further or clearer than I've seen so far.

I did have at least a couple relatively big-deal A&P type experiences 40 years ago followed by 2 years of wicked experiences and feeling torturously close to losing my mind. I thought that was because I was damaged from acid. Discovering Zen very slowly but steadily helped me to feel like I could function in the world again. So maybe I did go through some premature, artificially induced dark night. When I've read about Dark Night over the years I've always thought it was more of a meditative attainment, like Kenneth said, from seriously abandonding concepts and entering Unknowing. I'm sure I've only done that as states not as a stage.

Is it useful to try to discern and note distinct nanas before 1st path? Does it help with getting 1st path? I'd be interested in practical advice on that.

"On the other hand seeing through concepts and penetrating objects seems like it should go way further or clearer than I've seen so far. "

This takes time. Stick with the practice for a while. Give it time to work. You're attempting to counter years and tears of habit. In what universe does that happen quickly? Not mine!

"Is it useful to try to discern and note distinct nanas before 1st path? Does it help with getting 1st path? I'd be interested in practical advice on that."

I'd offer you this -- stop fretting over maps and paths and worrying about how fast or slow you're progressing. Just stick to your noting and penetrating objects. That's the key. Is it possible that you're not progressing because you're impatient and you don't stay with a practice long enough to let it do its magic? These practices aren't like medication that you can ingest and feel the effects of in minutes. They take much, much, much more time because, as I said, you're fighting against years of your habitual experience of the world. You need to find another way to SEE

Hang in there!

"
"On the other hand seeing through concepts and penetrating objects seems like it should go way further or clearer than I've seen so far. "

This takes time. Stick with the practice for a while. Give it time to work. You're attempting to counter years and tears of habit. In what universe does that happen quickly? Not mine!

"Is it useful to try to discern and note distinct nanas before 1st path? Does it help with getting 1st path? I'd be interested in practical advice on that."

I'd offer you this -- stop fretting over maps and paths and worrying about how fast or slow you're progressing. Just stick to your noting and penetrating objects. That's the key. Is it possible that you're not progressing because you're impatient and you don't stay with a practice long enough to let it do its magic? These practices aren't like medication that you can ingest and feel the effects of in minutes. They take much, much, much more time because, as I said, you're fighting against years of your habitual experience of the world. You need to find another way to SEE

Hang in there!

"

That all sounds solid to me, cmarti! Trying to identify the nanas seems kind of burdensome at this point but didn't want to disregard it if it is an important part of the practice.
"Just stick to your noting and penetrating objects." Thanks for the good advice!

Having maps is great and they can be a huge help but only when they matter and can make a difference. I used to try to ignore them because, like you, I would get obsessed about progress and lose concentration and, worse, motivation. You'll know when you're progressing. It's unmistakeable. You'll say to yourself, "Aha! So that's what they mean by....." Stick to your knitting until progress is obvious, and then note that and just keep going

"
Having maps is great and they can be a huge help but only when they matter and can make a difference. I used to try to ignore them because, like you, I would get obsessed about progress and lose concentration and, worse, motivation. You'll know when you're progressing. It's unmistakeable. You'll say to yourself, "Aha! So that's what they mean by....." Stick to your knitting until progress is obvious, and then note that and just keep going

"

word

"Having maps is great and they can be a huge help but only when they matter and can make a difference. I used to try to ignore them because, like you, I would get obsessed about progress and lose concentration and, worse, motivation. You'll know when you're progressing. It's unmistakeable. You'll say to yourself, "Aha! So that's what they mean by....." Stick to your knitting until progress is obvious, and then note that and just keep going

"

Right, I believe you're right on all points. Thanks.

"word"

Mike, are you noting? 8^)

"Mike, are you noting? 8^)"

I guess you are joking here? I don't know what that 8 thing means.
Anyway, doesn't it seem like it would be really good to be able to always know where one is on the maps during each sit? My idea is that that would make it easier and easier to move up and down and, of course, to know when one is at high equanimity and how to sustain that hopefully to eventually get to fruition. That's what I've seen a lot of peoople doing, especially Ron lately.
But, for me, i don't know how to do it (not yet at least) I can't figure out how to really stick to just the object in front of me and at the same time notice "where Im at" you know?
But, I do think I know when I am in equanimity and I have guess on A&P and dissolution but I'm not sure. I guess its a learning process.