Owen's Practice Journal

"Seems like your getting some good progress these days, good work! Since we're probably at about the same level, I find it very inspiring to follow your log

I've got a few questions:

1) For how long have you been practicing? I've been practicing insight meditation for maybe 3-4 months or so, and a few months of Anapanasati before that.
2) Do you still feel like a donut during A&P and Dissolution, as you probably did previously? For me, that donut-feeling seems to have become less prominent, especially compared to pre-stream entry.
3) I feel that the cycles are a lot less distinct and prominent these days, compared too previously. It's getting harder to distinguish each knowledge from each other. Do you have it the same way?
"

Thanks, glad I can be of some service.

1) I've been practicing off and on for about 3-4 years. I started with vipassana and moved to Rinzai Zen, now am back to doing strait vipassana.
2) I never really thought of it as a donut before (zen has you chalk all that up to makyo) but I do get the sense of it when I think about it using that analogy. I usually just get kind of a bubbling skin focused energy that eventually drops off into what I call "The Creepies" aka knowledge of fear.
3. Cycles for me are noticed more after the fact, with the exception of disgust (got that during lunch yesterday) and high equanimity. This is off the cushion. On the cushion, I notice the first stages less because I start out with samatha, then jump into vipassana when I grok an A&P. I'm aware too of sub-cycles and sub-sub-cycles that wind up clouding the whole thing. To be honest, I'm trying to let it all go and just make space for whatever appears in my awareness. The lens in front of that awareness (cycling) is less important.

I defiantly still feel like a doughnut during dissolution... Just my two cents... Things are looking good Owen. You know what to do--Keep practicing... : )

Just got up from a sit. Felt incredibly rough and rapid cycling. Soon as I sat down, maybe got through five breaths and *bang* fruition. They kept coming hard and fast. Cycled between equanimity and A&P over and over. Constant fruitions. I could pick out the drum beat of annica and the sucking and sideways twisting of dukkha. Annata just feels like mystery. Everything seems to have gotten so much more intense, like the volume on everything is up to eleven. Iron skull cap is back, but only right after fruitions.

On the other hand, last night when I went down into the subway, for a long moment I had a hard time picking myself out of the crowd. I know which body and mind I'm in, but lately I seem so much bigger than that. Sense of an incredible silence and spaciousness behind everything. Second path is one hell of a trip.

: )

There is nothing in the universe that isn't pure awareness, even the chump that thinks he's me.

Just got up from my sit. Started out in (walking around) in some thick dark night stuff.
Determined not to manipulate anything and to just note.
Tension - sadness - pressure - itch - sadness - tightness - neutral feeling - unpleasant feeling - etc...
Moved through jhanic arc a couple times, had good awareness of nanas 1-4 which is unusual for me. Normally, I move through that quickly during initial samatha.
When I really let go, I move through the arc quickly and in some sense, more completely. Noticing how thoughts and intensions color experience vs raw experience. Raw experience seems to move more smoothly, with no traces left behind.
The image of riding the ox backwards seems appropriate for this.

Moved more on the edge of my practice, hitting some really intense fruitions. Made it up to 8th jhana and was able to stabilize in it somewhat. Got a hint of something beyond it, maybe PL1? When I moved back into 7th, I got hit with what almost felt like a hard cessation, but wasn't. There was a sense of continuity, but it felt like a full system reboot. Everything just shut down for a quick moment, but not like the quick blip of a fruition. Afterward, I even had trouble forming thoughts to note with; deep silence for a while. Was this NS?

Post sit everything feels different now. Cleaner.

Looks promising! Do you make a resolution of some kind to reach the fruitions, or do they happen spontaneously? I've only experienced fruitions at each path events, and possibly also at the end of some review cycles. I haven't experienced any fruitions for the last few weeks now, but I haven't made any kind of resolution to reach them either.

How does this Jhana you take to be PL-1 feels like? I'm having some experiences where it feels like I'm moved higher into the air, and where I'm having almost the same awareness of my body like in 4st Jhana. But I'm not sure it that could be one of the PL's, or just something else'¦

Have you also experienced that it pretty hard to note objects during the higher Jhana's, and especially during the 7th and 8th Jhana? Every object seem very subtle during these Jhanas. That might be because there's less awareness of the body during these Jhanas, or what do you think?

' Everything just shut down for a quick moment, but not like the quick blip of a fruition.' '“OwenBecker
That sounds similar to the experiences I've been regularly the last few days. Were you able to do mindful noting right up to the point of the shut down? Do you share my experience that it's easier to predict when you're going to go blank during this cessation compared to fruitions?

Hey even,
I don't need to make resolutions to have fruitions, they just sort of happen. I can resolve to have them, but I usually don't. I'm on a "refrain from trying to manipulate" kind of a kick.

As for the pure land jhana's, it's hard to describe, I'm just seeing the edges of what I think is PL1. I'm trying to be really careful about scripting and just noting bare experience. It is a bit more challenging to note in the arupa territory, but for me it's because I'm really enjoying the sensations and I want to bliss out in samatha. But then I just note "desire" and go back to noting, space - space - consciousness - space - consciousness - proto thought - consciousness - consciousness - nothingness - consciousness - nothingness - ? - nothingness - ? - ? - ? nothingness. Kinda like that. But this sit when I hit 8 I also got: ? - ? - proto thought - ? - nothingness - ? - ? - sense of welcome - ? - sense of welcome ... then *wham* full system reboot. Then sinking down to the bottom of the hara and a pretty total inability to form thoughts for a few minutes.

If the arahat - anagami crew could jump in here with comment it would be most appreciated.

Hey Even, after making a resolution try fluttering your eyes and look for the end of the sensation. That has been the easiest way for me to experience fruition but it only worked for me post 2nd path... Good luck Edit: I have also gone through a period (right after SE) when I didn't notice fruitions...

Oh yeah, even, another thing. Fruitions for me seem to happen most frequently in high equanimity. 4th jhana seems to be the most stable spot. Also, try moving your internal field of vision about 25 degrees north of the horizon.

I've never tried that, but it actually worked. Thanks! At first I felt nothing, but then I started to feel those blips. It helped to really force the eye high into the skull, as mentioned in Kenneth's QA. It also helped to stay in 4th jhana, as you said. Plus, it worked better after getting a high degree of concentration, by not letting your mind wander. I don't know which of the three fruitions I've experienced yet, but it seems like I've discovered at least two types: One that has a hard and surprising start/end, but is short in duration. And another one that is vaguer and a bit longer in duration.

Question: It's supposedly possible to re-experience all the three fruitions from all the paths that you've attained. In my case, I should have access to at least 6 different fruitions since I've reached 2nd path. How is it possible to determine which one to visit? By a resolution?

Nick is the one who is playing around with that stuff. He does it by making a resolution...

"It's supposedly possible to re-experience all the three fruitions from all the paths that you've attained. In my case, I should have access to at least 6 different fruitions since I've reached 2nd path. How is it possible to determine which one to visit? By a resolution?"-Even

Yes, just make a resolution. It seems like a big deal (making a "formal resolution" and all that), but it isn't. Just say to yourself, "May I review fruitions from 1st Path." Let your eyes flutter a bit, paying attention to the endings of the flutters, and see what happens. Then say "May I review fruitions from 2nd Path."

Needless to say, this only works for people who have attained the Paths in question. In any case, you may find that the difference between 1st and 2nd Path fruitions is quite subtle. You may wonder if you are imagining it. And you may well be imagining it! We can never know for sure; that is part of the fun!

As you are exploring in this way, keep it within the context of the larger plan; this practice leads to the happiness that is independent of conditions and these kinds of explorations are fun and fascinating but not essential to the goal. Have fun and keep it light-hearted.

Metta,

Kenneth

Last nights reclining meditation:
Discomfort - pain - tension - pain - pulse - sadness - pulse - sadness - pulse (intense dark night stuff yesterday) ... pain - sadness - twitch - neutral feeling - intention - thinking - planning - nausea - planning - thoughts of escape - pulsing - pulsing - pulsing - flickering - flickering - hard fruition - flickering - hard fruition - space - space - space - flicker - fruition - space - space - consciousness - consciousness - space -consciousness - witness - witness - flicker - witness - witness - darkness - tightening of focus to darkness - witness - darkness - darkness - energy bubbling around throat and crown - ? - ? - ? - proto thought - shifting - rising - rising - warmth - love - gratitude - gratitude - sensations of being held - floating - love - gratitude - safety - peace - peace - peace -serenity - colors - shifting - gratitude ...
At that point I had to get up and weep a little. It was like... I don't have any words for this other than being in the presence of an amazing benevolence, looking in an not being different from it.

My sit this morning had the same pattern, except for the lovely morning allergies. Ever sneeze in 8th jhana? Super weird. Anyway, I again went into this amazingly loving, floating space. Body feels immensely peaceful right now. Like I've fallen in love with everything.

Peace and metta to everybody today. There's only one of us in here.

I have sneezed up in the high Jhanas haha I had that problem last week actually... lol... well sound like good stuff from your report. While instructing a disciple Ajahn Chah once said, "I have seen you, even though I have been busy I have kept an eye on you, but I saw you weeping, so I knew you were getting the good teachings."

"Vipassana Tears" (VP) the best kind.

Oh yeah, had my best cries after sitting.

Everything seems strangely bright and dreamlike right now. Feels a bit like I keep moving "back" behind my all sensations. More strong deja-vu. There are thoughts, feelings, a body, sensations, but none of them are me. New stuff is showing up lately as well, like will and intention. Also not me. But who is typing this? Cause and effect? All the movements of karma and the universe, now clicking on these keys and I'm just watching. Feels like something old is breaking apart and I'm grieving it. But I can see it, and it was never me.

Massive emotional-tension release last night. Lots of very even energy discharges around hands, warm and glowing. I remember falling asleep as the witness. Not planned, but seem to be spending more and more time unintentionally as witness. It feels like a more "normal" perspective.

Overall sense of boundaries between myself and the world are dropping. It was initially excruciating, but now it feels liberating. Like I'm just another motion of the world. There is an imaginary line, and on one side I arbitrary declared it to be me. There is still the sense of a dualistic split, like the sense of myself is "home base", but I'm not always trapped there. The world seems so bright and beautiful.

Impermanence means everything is new and alive. Refreshed constantly from an original source, endlessly light. Even the painful parts.

Okay enough! I feel the smoothness of the keys beneath my fingers and the pressure of the rest beneath my feet.

You have a footrest! Lucky!

Mine are on the floor.

Okay, so per Kenneth's suggestion, I'm working with paying attention to the sense of the witness using the 6th jhana as a base. Then after bailing out of 6th, moving through the other jhanas and trying to keep track of it.
My sit this morning felt kind of shallow, like I was missing a lot. I think I've been neglecting sleep and it has finally caught up with me. Must take care of self.
I tried to pick out each discreet jhana on the way up, I've been doing breath counting samatha for the first five minutes and typically manage to shoot through 1-3 without investigating them much. I get so focused on the movement of the hara so quickly it's hard to sometimes appreciate the feelings of the initial traversal. This time I slowed it down and tried to really luxuriate in each. Dissolution hung around longer and the dukkha nanas passed by within a couple minutes. Had a couple of fruitions, then tuned into infinite space. Bounced up into 6th jhana with relative ease, got a sense of the witness and then pulled back into 5th. Witness was still there. Curious, I noted my way into 7, and even though the sense of consciousness in the pinprick blackness of it was mostly gone, witness was still there. Up to 8th with all the attendant weirdness, witness was still there. Bordering on new territory, noting a sense of light expansion and compassion. Witness still there. Traveled back down to equanimity, witness. Spent the next few minutes just playing and bouncing between jhanas, always it was there. But I can't see it, because it's not an object. Just the sense of a "senser" of objects, always unseen. But when I try to sense the sense of a senser, I always wind up in Just This. It's a very clean experience. Good times.

Quick sit during my lunch break. I remembered and was grateful that, despite the fact that I work in an active construction zone, they have a room downstairs dedicated to meditation and spiritual reflection. Might as well make use of it!

I also wanted to thank everybody here for all the support since I started posting.
This is a unique community, and it has radically transformed my practice. It is truly amazing watching everybody make such rapid progress!
Metta,
-o

Over the last few days, the stink of enlightenment has become, well stinky. Very, very stinky.
It's a bit like I have a perch as the witness where I can sit and not really care too much about any of the details of this Owen's life. It's almost as if my capacity for accepting has gotten to the point where I'm only concerned with ultimate reality, rather than the relative world. I seem have become a bit of a spiritual a-hole. Funny how focusing on non-self can make me so self-centered. Ah well, karma will knock me off the pink cloud eventually.
Kenneth, thanks for the warnings about this.

Anyway, sits are going well, cycling up through the 8th with hints of something more. Noticed during my sit this morning that there is an interesting "sideways twisting" of the mind when I go from 7th to 8th.
Bit like I've turned away from everything all at once. Interesting. Also, witness never seems to go away. Feels like riding the arc with the witness is making my relative identity re-attach to it as the normal state.

Sit for 7-31-10

Practicing going up and down the jhanic arc without manipulating. After the third in breath, constant hard fruitions. Noted the thought of wondering where I was in the arc. First five minutes were fruitions, followed by bright A&P. Moved through the dukkha nanas without much trouble. Into equanimity with a hard fruition. Moved through 6, 7 and 8 and was able to hang out in 8 for an extended period. Then felt lightness, sensations of joy and gratitude. Also the body reappeared. Then sensations of body dropped away to just a mind focus. Again feelings of deep peace and happiness.
I went back down in reverse, found myself in mind and body and made it back up to equanimity before the sit was finished. Noticed during the sit a really intense fruition with a delayed entry. When the fruition happened, it was as if I was literally thrown down into the hara and it took a while before verbal thoughts could reform. Noticed this because I had trouble noting with words when sensations re-arose.

I'm now able to slip into annica fruitions at will while walking around. I can trigger them by listening to music with any kind of steady beat. It's almost like they are syncing up with it. Kinda groovy. Sense of witness becoming predominant identity after noticing it occurring constantly up and down the arc. Previously felt sensations of self still have a somewhat "special" status, but that feeling is decreasing as I notice "specialness". Also noting while walking around "desire for enlightenment". Desire for enlightenment is happening now, and is just another sensation to note.

And what's the point of all this then?
It's just the universe, humbly asking for another point of view.

Sit this morning:

Cycled through all 13 jhanas and Nirodha samapatti.

At this point, I'm confident that I'm an anagami. Was emailing throughout the week and spoke with Kenneth last night to confirm. Now it's time for the big show.

I'm going to start a new thread for third path.
Many thanks to Kenneth and all the other wonderful folks on this forum. THIS PRACTICE WORKS!