Mike Monson's Practice Notes: Dos

[cont.]
As an aside, I agree with this statement: "We are not trying to be goody two-shoes here, or to attain and try to hold onto, any kind of special states, makyo. This is just about being present with whatever is." And I can see how a person, even when intoxicated or perhaps even because one is intoxicated, can be in a place of the mind that seems untouched. There's an implacable place where one can just rest, even under the influence of alcohol. I noticed this in Vegas.

But I've seen people take advantage of this aforementioned statement and turn getting sh*tfaced into a way of life--up to and including while on retreats or staying at a big dharma center that shall go unnamed. There clearly is some kind of slippery slope with this stuff...

I enjoy the occasional drinkipoo. I've got some coronas in the fridge. Have even got happily drunk, not overly, just quite tispy on a few occasions here in chile, were drinking is the social lubricant as it is everywhere else. I stopped being anal about sila and drinking after 1st path. I did not let it rain on my parade as I was no longer under the power of those who said if you break your sila your practice will suffer. I suffered more from that idea than the drinking itself. Mike, live it up. I heard Bill Hamilton used to go party after each achievement of a path. You are on the conveyor belt now. There is no stopping you. All in moderation and care of course. Enjoy that cocktail!

However, I would advise those trying to get stream entry and get a momentum going to hold off somewhat on the booze and drugs. But in no way do you have to become a social outcast due to being anal about the 5th precept. Not neccessary! If drinking interrupts your momentum you should know what to do. If it doesn't, then it doesn't.

My 2 cents.

jgroove:
Thanks, interesting.
my affiliation to buddhism or dharma is really limited to having Kenneth as a teacher and considering my friends on this site as my sangha.
for full disclosure then, any official or institutional dharma center's ideas or rules on behavior or the "precepts" means nothing to me. I go strictly on the rule of what I discover is good and right for my practice of eliminating or getting rid of my suffering. And that could mean anything, and the way it looks in my life could change constantly and, of course, I could mess up completely and have to deal with it.
So I'm not drinking or tripping out on pain pills or smoking pot right now because I've discovered for right now I just don't want to.
And, if I end up getting sh itfaced in Vegas and my practice suffers as a result then I can deal with that.
I'm almost ready to say that i don't really even care that much about how "mike monson" as an entity turns out -- that's kind of weird, isn't it?

AMEN!!!

Edited: Never Mind

"Hey Mike I can relate to what you are saying. And please don't take this as preaching, because frankly no one can tell you what decisions are best for you. But I have had this exact same thought and acted on it before during practice. While in an absolute sense it is true... It is important not to confuse the absolute with the relative... Mike might not exist but that isn't a reason not to take care of him : ) "

That's nice, thanks.
I can't help but take care of Mike, I think that is just a given as long as I am sane. But, the suffering-creating pressure for "Mike" to become something -- I can do without that -- it's just a huge drag.

That it is... its great to see your practice going so well...

One more thing!
I must mention that a huge amount of the energy and the reason behind why I do the things I do or don't do is because I am a parent and a husband and a sibling and a friend and an employee and not because of dharma or my practice.
but, my practice is definitely making me better at all those things which is one of the main reasons why I love it so much.

I can relate to the responsibilities thing, Mike. I've quit drinking, vacations excepted, in large part because of this as well. The practice has helped me to quit, which is not a small thing at all. Three of my grandparents were alcoholics, and I've been guilty of some major binge-drinking at times. Since my dad died at a young age, I fell into a drink-too-much/worry-you're-going-to-die-young kind of spiral that was extremely painful.
I always think of the line about licking honey off a razor blade. When the razor blade aspect starts to predominate, you know it's time to back off.

"I can relate to the responsibilities thing, Mike. I've quit drinking, vacations excepted, in large part because of this as well. The practice has helped me to quit, which is not a small thing at all. Three of my grandparents were alcoholics, and I've been guilty of some major binge-drinking at times. Since my dad died at a young age, I fell into a drink-too-much/worry-you're-going-to-die-young kind of spiral that was extremely painful.
I always think of the line about honey on a razor blade. When the razor blade aspect starts to predominate, you know it's time to back off.
"

You must not be a alcoholic yourself though -- cause if a real drunk were to take a vow to restrict their drinking to "vacations" -- then after a while almost anything would become a "vacation." -- trip to vegas, trip to the lake, trip to the corner bar ....

True enough. I'd say I had been guilty of misuse. Once I've had a few, I want to keep it going. I could never understand how people could just drink a couple of beers and leave the rest of the six pack in the fridge. True alcoholism seems to be a different animal. I've heard people say that drinking can be about "throwing off energy." I don't know exactly what that means, but I think I kind of get it.

This is fascinating stuff about alcohol - the Buddhist taboo! I've rarely met a serious meditator who never drinks, or hasn't done drugs at some point. Of course, I've rarely met an adult who never drinks or hasn't done drugs. I think it is hard for meditators to come out openly about this stuff because there is a bit of a stigma against it.

For my own part, I love beer and wine. Especially good dark beers. However, like MIke, I haven't felt much of a desire for a drink since 1st path. It's strange. I had very deliberately put aside drinking in the months leading up to SE (partly because my wife is pregnant and cannot drink, so hey, why should I?). Then once it happened, I would be fine having a beer, but don't really have a strong desire to have one. I no longer have to put it aside, it's just not as appealing as it once was.

I totally agree with booze impacting practice. I'm not totally sure how it does this, but Mike's explanation makes pretty good sense. All I know is that in the past if I had even a couple of drinks the night before my concentration would be greatly affected. I could tell that the lights, raptures and other blissful effects of deep concentration were dampened and sometimes even absent. It's like you have to choose the happiness of booze or the happiness of meditation, but you can't have both together. However, if you take the long view, there is no reason not to enjoy a bottle of wine when you with friends, just do it knowing that you may have to make up a little ground on the path.

For me what REALLY effects my vipassana is pot. I stopped that way way before stopping beer and vodka -- about nine months ago and I can't imagine doing it again, but, who knows? (though I never liked it the way I like a drink or two)
Anyway, I'm convinced that, for me, pot completely eliminates momentum and reduces my ability to be mindful. Again, that is just for me of course.

To carry on being the odd duck in the group, getting fairly drunk at what turned out to be precisely the right time, was a significant factor in my 'Big Experience'.

It happened like this: for one thing, I am practically a teetotaler. I've just never liked anything about alcohol. But, at the end of about three months of meditating like a fiend, most of my time not at work or asleep, I was home the day before Thanksgiving with a stuffy head and sore throat. I usually take hot-water-honey-lemonade; for some reason, it seemed advisable to add brandy to it this time. I had to go to the store to get some. After slowly nursing a couple of big cups of this, reading some great Rumi poems, and getting VERY relaxed and still-- just available for a change-- I read a line that seemed like a direct question, Rumi to me: 'If the Friend rose inside you, would you bow?' -- or would you say, not right now; I've got stuff to do...[my paraphrase of this last] It was like a lightning bolt of insight struck me: everything I looked at, every sensation and thought, was electrically just as it was; neither 'myself' nor 'other' neither inside nor outside. And I could both recognize that I was drunk and that there is 'something' that is never drunk; later when I went to bed, that 'something' didn't sleep, either. For a long while after that, my sleep was more often like that 'witnessing' process than not. [and a bunch of other physio-energetic stuff kept rolling]

I guess the moral of the story is that it's possible that not drinking habitually can make the select occasions when you do-- a whole 'nother thing.

"To carry on being the odd duck in the group, getting fairly drunk at what turned out to be precisely the right time, was a significant factor in my 'Big Experience'.

It happened like this: for one thing, I am practically a teetotaler. I've just never liked anything about alcohol. But, at the end of about three months of meditating like a fiend, most of my time not at work or asleep, I was home the day before Thanksgiving with a stuffy head and sore throat. I usually take hot-water-honey-lemonade; for some reason, it seemed advisable to add brandy to it this time. I had to go to the store to get some. After slowly nursing a couple of big cups of this, reading some great Rumi poems, and getting VERY relaxed and still-- just available for a change-- I read a line that seemed like a direct question, Rumi to me: 'If the Friend rose inside you, would you bow?' -- or would you say, not right now; I've got stuff to do...[my paraphrase of this last] It was like a lightning bolt of insight struck me: everything I looked at, every sensation and thought, was electrically just as it was; neither 'myself' nor 'other' neither inside nor outside. And I could both recognize that I was drunk and that there is 'something' that is never drunk; later when I went to bed, that 'something' didn't sleep, either. For a long while after that, my sleep was more often like that 'witnessing' process than not. [and a bunch of other physio-energetic stuff kept rolling]

I guess the moral of the story is that it's possible that not drinking habitually can make the select occasions when you do-- a whole 'nother thing. "

Roomy, you mean we can't carve not drinking into stone and make it a Commandment!? Darn!
What's the line? "Everything in moderation, including moderation." (Also not sure what that means.)

"This is fascinating stuff about alcohol - the Buddhist taboo! I've rarely met a serious meditator who never drinks, or hasn't done drugs at some point. Of course, I've rarely met an adult who never drinks or hasn't done drugs. I think it is hard for meditators to come out openly about this stuff because there is a bit of a stigma against it.

For my own part, I love beer and wine. Especially good dark beers. However, like MIke, I haven't felt much of a desire for a drink since 1st path. It's strange. I had very deliberately put aside drinking in the months leading up to SE (partly because my wife is pregnant and cannot drink, so hey, why should I?). Then once it happened, I would be fine having a beer, but don't really have a strong desire to have one. I no longer have to put it aside, it's just not as appealing as it once was.

I totally agree with booze impacting practice. I'm not totally sure how it does this, but Mike's explanation makes pretty good sense. All I know is that in the past if I had even a couple of drinks the night before my concentration would be greatly affected. I could tell that the lights, raptures and other blissful effects of deep concentration were dampened and sometimes even absent. It's like you have to choose the happiness of booze or the happiness of meditation, but you can't have both together. However, if you take the long view, there is no reason not to enjoy a bottle of wine when you with friends, just do it knowing that you may have to make up a little ground on the path.
"

Ken Wilber claims in one book that for a period of time he was totally awake even during deep, dreamless sleep--what he calls the causal realm--but that even drinking a couple of glasses of wine would make this extraordinary state inaccessible once again. And yet Roomy had the exact opposite experience.
Reality. Such a trickster!

"for full disclosure then, any official or institutional dharma center's ideas or rules on behavior or the "precepts" means nothing to me. I go strictly on the rule of what I discover is good and right for my practice of eliminating or getting rid of my suffering. - telecaster"

This is what is so great about this place! Shouldn't this be the attitude of everyone on the path?

"This is what is so great about this place! Shouldn't this be the attitude of everyone on the path?"

Nice.
Now, more full disclosure: clearly what occurs from such an attitude is that one sees that the eight-fold path is exactly right and each of the parts is completely necessary. But, because this truth is discovered by one being a light unto oneself rather than imposed from without by an institution, then this discovery is real, true and original -- and has actual value.

-- I just re-read what I wrote above and I feel like I sound like an a s s hole, but, oh well, it's true and the sentiment is central to the way I approach this practice (that sounds kind of pompous as well!).

"To carry on being the odd duck in the group, getting fairly drunk at what turned out to be precisely the right time, was a significant factor in my 'Big Experience'.

"

Roomy, your the best duck in the whole bunch. Thanks so much for sharing this! These real life stories of awakening are so inspiring. So much more than the "... and then his dharma-eye suddenly and inexplicably opened" variety. When I read yours, I can picture something like that happening to me in my life. It builds confidence.

"Roomy, your the best duck in the whole bunch. Thanks so much for sharing this! These real life stories of awakening are so inspiring. So much more than the "... and then his dharma-eye suddenly and inexplicably opened" variety. When I read yours, I can picture something like that happening to me in my life. It builds confidence."

I second that. We should put together a "best of Roomy" thread!

"I second that. We should put together a "best of Roomy" thread! "

Aww-- you guys are too kind; I hesitated to post that, 'cuz this is MIKE'S PRACTICE thread, and I didn't want to derail it. If I figure out an appropriate place for the longer version of the story, I'll put it there.

The principle I was wanting to highlight was that it is being submerged in our habits-- 'good habits', 'bad habits'-- that prevents anything greater from appearing: that prevents us from SEEING that, in fact, 'the Friend rose inside you'. When you see that, I think the bowing is almost a foregone conclusion-- many posts on this and other threads seem to attest to that!

Roomy -- I've definitely had insights from time to time while drunk on hard liquor -- especially bourbon for some reason.

"Nice.
Now, more full disclosure: clearly what occurs from such an attitude is that one sees that the eight-fold path is exactly right and each of the parts is completely necessary. But, because this truth is discovered by one being a light unto oneself rather than imposed from without by an institution, then this discovery is real, true and original -- and has actual value.

-- I just re-read what I wrote above and I feel like I sound like an a s s hole, but, oh well, it's true and the sentiment is central to the way I approach this practice (that sounds kind of pompous as well!). "

pompous or not, that certainly rings true for me! You can hear advice a million times, but nothing really changes until you see it for yourself.

sat yesterday for 50 min in vegas after a fun party night.
now I am at a wonderful hotel/resort in Tucson and haven't sat yet today.
I did end up drinking some thursday night while gambling with Bec -- I guess the main news is that it didn't seem to effect my practice as I had no problem sitting and noting etc.
the sit was my usual rising ... falling .... stopping ... rising .... STOP ..... falling ..... stopping .... etc.
with each phase of the breath I notice what was going on. it was wonderful. just a very detailed, specific, awareness of each minute step of the breath. "What is going on here?" "what is REALLY going on here?" I'm talking pressure, little vibrations in different parts, thoughts, mental images coming and going, tightness, resistance, little movements of attention everywhere caused by my volitional mind moving around.
I also remember to think the word "disembed" which brings a lightness and joy everywhere.
about halfway through I guess what happened is I "synched-up" with all the objects again and again which brought fruitions and strong energy surges up the spine and out the crown.
see what i mean? as I watch and noted the phases of the breath, my awareness got so detailed and things seemed to have slowed down so so much that it seemed like I was RIGHT THERE for the beginnings and endings of EVERYTHING with no effort. all I had to do was look and I was right in synch. so, this brings fruitions and bliss, I think. it's nice and it is what feels right to me right now.
at this point also it is easier to notice "self" feellings and locations which is fasinating. I looked at that a lot and watched what it did. I saw a sort of "self-muscle" that can contract and flex and release feelings and energy and movements all over the body. however all I can see is what it does --- I can't quite find "it" itself.
cont

all of this is no big deal and at the same time is just the best thing ever
it's no big deal in the sense that I'm not getting all excited and chasing after stuff but the best thing ever because I know that I am on an inevitable ride that is bringing joy and peace and clarity and I have no idea what else. it's fun and rewarding.
we drove 8 hours yesterday through nevada and most of arizona (it seemed like) and the entire day I was in a version of that state I described above -- just open and ready and empty and able to meet new objects and experiences just as they appeared with no friction. nice. (however the objects included such things as boredom, frustration, fear, curiosity, love, etc)
I'm convinced that Bec is still a bit more enlightened than I at this point which makes for a great marriage I must say