Ron's Stream-Entry Journal

Hmm, really interesting considerations! some may find it interesting in this regard the way in which liberation is pursued and once attained expressed in the Tibetan tradition, cuz they've certainly addressed this-- in their own cultural context, of course.

With that caveat, in the Kagyu lineage there are three "prototypes" of a practiotioner/realizer. They are the yogi, lay person, and monastic. There are many examples of all three, which can be combined simultaneously and serially in infinite variety.

For instance, Marpa is considered a deeply awakened master. He lived as a (alcoholic) farmer and family man after travelling to India, meeting his teacher, and also translated many texts. His main student was Milarepa who attained realization after years of brutal treatment by Marpa and intense asceticism, and as an awakened master lived with one loin cloth on various mountainsides and in caves. One of his students was a beautiful young noblewoman who came to see the wild yogi on a lark. Unimpressed with her feminine guiles, he pointed out that she would grow ugly, old, sick and die. She had a change of heart and asked what to do: he told her his teachings could be practiced without "cutting your hair", in other words without changing her lifestyle and adopting his. One of Milarepa's main disciples was (I think) Gampopa, a celibate monk who founded the Kagyu monastic lineage after his own awakening. And so on. What did they all have in common? Not lifestyle. Complete ruthless sincerity in their quest and the certain knowledge that liberation is a process of subtraction of ignorance, not addition of lifestyle props. They each did what they had to do to live their own quest, and in each case it was more dramatic or less so.

Practice update:
The move from first to 2nd path was very quick in retrospect (just a few months) however the progression from 2nd to 3rd is turning out to be a bit more of a slog. I don't feel quite stuck, but I feel that the path is "longer" at this portion. At least for me. Progress is slow and though I've had two cessations, neither of them were path. Both happened roughly on top of one another and it was about two months ago. Since then, no more cessations. However, equanimity feels very strong and vibrant, much like it did just before first and second path.

I suppose that I'm becoming restless and I'm ready for all this to be over with or for the next big thing to happen.

On another note (pun intended) I have been earnestly pursuing the practice of noting throughout the day when not in the witness. I've found that the witness can only be done during certain activities, as it takes up a lot of cognitive "load" and can't be done during a lot of more complex things. So I'm working on the noting 24/7. What I'm finding is that while I can't note all day, certain activities that happen each day are becoming "anchor points" around which noting is beginning to take place automatically. Making breakfast, taking a shower, the commute to work, etc. Each daily event is becoming a trigger to go back to noting. Each day I'm noting more often and the "anchors" are spreading out and blending together.

Cont...

Cont...

The effect is interesting. I'm definitely less embedded moment to moment now, and when I sit it is easier to take even thoughts as objects and note them. I am having what I've called the "Adler effect" after the Adler planetarium in Chicago. In the planetarium you sit back and watch the show of stars and planets take place above and all around you as if you are traveling through it. The experience is to be both in and out of the experience at the same time - and that is what the sits are more and more like. As if all the sensations and thoughts arising are happening around me but not to me. I'm in it but not of it. Right now the Adler effect if getting stronger but is faint. I imagine that it will become much stronger, and where it leads... that is what I want to find out.

"
The move from first to 2nd path was very quick in retrospect (just a few months) however the progression from 2nd to 3rd is turning out to be a bit more of a slog. I don't feel quite stuck, but I feel that the path is "longer" at this portion. At least for me. Progress is slow and though I've had two cessations, neither of them were path. Both happened roughly on top of one another and it was about two months ago. Since then, no more cessations. However, equanimity feels very strong and vibrant, much like it did just before first and second path.
"

Ron,

My practice agrees with yours! the move from 1st to 2nd path came fairly quickly. From 2nd to 3rd take considerably more time and effort. You will need to cycle many times before the big pop that will get you into 3rd path. Push push push and continue noting everything, each time developing more Wisdom (the effect of accepting more and the true nature of all phenomena). You'll know you are really close when you are riding the jhanic arc and while at the 8th jhana, sensations of the 1st Pure Land Jhana start to manifest (blissful energy pressure on the 3rd eye, sensations of having a body appearing again, calm and cool subtle waves of cool bliss coming in and out. As long as you are noting, you'll be moving along! The equanimity/11 nana will continue to be more and more vibrant and stronger! In my experience, fruitions happened on their own, after the atage of equanimity had matured enough.
The shift perception from no path to 1st path was sublte but noticeable, the one to 2nd was also subtle (in my experience, it felt like a refinement of 1st path). The shift from 2nd to 3rd is huge though! it's unlike anything one imagines. It is such that you will ask yourself many times: "am I done?", "this is it, right? it's gotta be", "I have seen all there is to see", etc. That said, continue your great practice and stay motivated!

"Cont...

The effect is interesting. I'm definitely less embedded moment to moment now, and when I sit it is easier to take even thoughts as objects and note them. I am having what I've called the "Adler effect" after the Adler planetarium in Chicago. In the planetarium you sit back and watch the show of stars and planets take place above and all around you as if you are traveling through it. The experience is to be both in and out of the experience at the same time - and that is what the sits are more and more like. As if all the sensations and thoughts arising are happening around me but not to me. I'm in it but not of it. Right now the Adler effect if getting stronger but is faint. I imagine that it will become much stronger, and where it leads... that is what I want to find out."

YES!! that effect gets magnified many- fold once you attain to 3rd path. The "Adler effect" you are experiencing goes to show how far you have come, and how close you are getting to the end of the "ride". Continue to gain wisdom (seeing all phenomena as the stars and planets around, eventually the subtle sense of self, starts to show just like the stars and planets as well).

Great job, Ron! I enjoy so much hearing how well you are doing, man!

'You'll know you are really close when you are riding the jhanic arc and while at the 8th jhana, sensations of the 1st Pure Land Jhana start to manifest'
-foolbutnotforlong

Perhaps the PL jhanas do not always mark the transition from 2nd to 3rd path so clearly. Yesterday Kenneth confirmed that I am getting the five Pure Land jhanas and I do not consider myself to be 3rd path. Surely all the cycles of insight have increased the clarity and made disembedding easier, but I have not experienced any major shifts in perception that would correspond to the descriptions of getting 3rd path.

'The shift perception from no path to 1st path was sublte but noticeable, the one to 2nd was also subtle (in my experience, it felt like a refinement of 1st path). The shift from 2nd to 3rd is huge though! it's unlike anything one imagines'
-foolbutnotforlong

This is interesting. In my experience the shift from 1st to 2nd path was at least as noticeable as Stream Entry. Could it be that there is more variability between individuals than is previously thought (or at least more than I have thought ?

Antero.

Hi antero,

That was my experience as well. I was getting access to the pure abodes jhanas well before I felt I was 3rd path. I think nirodha samapatti is the true sign that you are 3rd pathing it. We have seen that a number of yogis have accessed what they see as the pure abodes long before they are diagnosed as 3rd path and before they have access to NS. It seems problematic to talk about the pure abodes being purely 3rd path phenomena. We are getting more data fro more yogis so in my opinion, they are accessible late 2nd path. That was my experience too. Then again, I really have no idea when the actual shift to third path truly happened. I had a few shifts which made me think it was it. There was one "violent" fruition that left the mind very very aloof to all the phenomena within. The Adler effect in full effect. It was like the mind just took a giant step backwards, ceased identifying fully with phenomena, kind of giving the impression that the tendency to "cling" to phenomena had reduced considerbaly and which also gave the impression that the Witness or a state similar to that had become my default mode. This shift in perception was a big one, so it makes me think it was 3rd path. But I was accessing the pure abodes before this happened. AND if i rememebr correctly, I was accessing NS shortly before this shift too. Aaaagh, it ws all too confusing to say when which path was attained. 4th path was a no-brainer though.

Nick

"Perhaps the PL jhanas do not always mark the transition from 2nd to 3rd path so clearly. Yesterday Kenneth confirmed that I am getting the five Pure Land jhanas and I do not consider myself to be 3rd path. Surely all the cycles of insight have increased the clarity and made disembedding easier, but I have not experienced any major shifts in perception that would correspond to the descriptions of getting 3rd path."

I believe in order to have the pure land jhanas manifesting there has to be a certain level of phisio-energy blockage eliminated (to use Kenneth's concepts). I have experienced this blockage being related to the overall amount of clinging to the phenomena (particularly the "self"). I posted a thread a while back called "Pure Land Jhanas - Reserved to Anagamis and Arahats only?" when I first started to experience the first 3 PL jhanas while still on 2nd path. I was experiencing them a lot stronger and more clearly after getting past some sort of developmental "hump" duing 2nd path (this hump was very noticeable in my experience, and after that it felt like I was just rolling downhill towards 3rd path). I found out later on that I was originally solidifying the PL jhanas by compounding them (which proves at least to me, that the closer one is to 3rd path the more pure the manitestation of PL jhanas become. Based on that, I believe the PL jhanas (and NS for that matter) can only manifest once a certain level of blockage (aka. certain level of clinging) has been eliminated.
I think both you and Ron are closer to 3rd path than you may realize. Keep on trucking!

"AND if i rememebr correctly, I was accessing NS shortly before this shift too. Aaaagh, it ws all too confusing to say when which path was attained. 4th path was a no-brainer though.

Nick"

Could it be possible that you had attained 3rd path before the big path shift kicked in? If I remember correctly, some suttas mentioned that the very first NS automatically (by definition) leads to 3rd path since it can be the fruition of that path. So although it is not certainly the only way to attain to 3rd path, it should be an absolute indicator of entry. We also know that there are many 3rd and 4th pathers that have not experienced NS (I came to experience it post 4th path). Until we have enough evidence about NS being accessable by 2nd pathers I think I'm going to continue to lean towards the suttas and see it as an abosulte measure of having at least attained to 3rd path.

thanks for the advice and inspiration!

I don't think that I've had anything past the second arupa jhana yet, but then again, I haven't pushed to see if I'm capable of going farther than that. It will be interesting to see if there is more available soon.

One thing that I forgot to mention in my post is that what drove me to really work on the 24/7 noting along with the witness was the arrival of my new baby boy. Whew! what a load of work! Anyway, I'm lucky if I can get an unbroken 30 minutes to sit, and that is just about long enough to rise up to 2nd arupa jhana, but not any further. So my compromise has been to bring the practice with me into all of my activities. I know I should have doing this all along, but this is really the first time I've given it a sincere try, and I have to say that it is making a pretty noticeable difference in how my mind operates during the day. I'm far less attached to anything these days.

"
This is interesting. In my experience the shift from 1st to 2nd path was at least as noticeable as Stream Entry. Could it be that there is more variability between individuals than is previously thought (or at least more than I have thought ?

Antero.
"

I think this is one of the more interesting topics out there. How much of the whole "full enlightenement" takes place after attaining certain paths. I think what makes it a bit difficult to clearly gauge is that each yogi may notice some shifts in certain areas more than others. Another interesting fact is how one changes one's idea on how much shift each path created as we attain to higher paths. the shift from 1st to 2nd felt pretty noticeable while in 2nd (specially when noticing how much the clinging to phenomena had decreased), but once in 3rd, it felt like 2nd was more of a refinement. if I had to give out percentages it would go like this:
-1st path: 10-12%
-2nd path: 10-12%
-3rd path: 50-60%
-4th path: 20-25%

Although the shift to 4th was the most amazing one, in my experience it felt most of the work had be already done. Again, I'm not comparing the aftermath of attaining path (if that was the case, obviously the aftermath of attaining 4th path is equal to the full 100% of full realization), but how the progress felt throughout. It would be great to do a survey to get a sense of how other yogis feel the process breaks down based on their experiences

"thanks for the advice and inspiration!

I don't think that I've had anything past the second arupa jhana yet, but then again, I haven't pushed to see if I'm capable of going farther than that. It will be interesting to see if there is more available soon.

One thing that I forgot to mention in my post is that what drove me to really work on the 24/7 noting along with the witness was the arrival of my new baby boy. Whew! what a load of work! Anyway, I'm lucky if I can get an unbroken 30 minutes to sit, and that is just about long enough to rise up to 2nd arupa jhana, but not any further. So my compromise has been to bring the practice with me into all of my activities. I know I should have doing this all along, but this is really the first time I've given it a sincere try, and I have to say that it is making a pretty noticeable difference in how my mind operates during the day. I'm far less attached to anything these days."

Ron,

24/7 noting was one of the factors that helped me maintain momentum while having a lot of stuff going on in my life. Certainly it's going to be hard to be able to sit for longer periods of time now that you have the little one. I would not get too caught up on jhanas at this point (the PL jhana test, as I like to call it, is more for gauging than anything else). If you cant get past the 2nd arupa jhana, do not worry, just hang in there and do your noting there. As long as you contiue to note and continue to disembed, you'll be making progress. Again, that 24/7 noting is doing a lot of the dirty work, even if you are not having the time to have a longer sitting session. Continue to sit at the "Adler planetarium" and continue to note the 3 characteristics of all phenomena arising and passing, and the disembedding and progess will continue.
Hope things continue to go well in Hawaii, my friend!
metta,
JF

Aloha!

Practice update:
I'm continuing to shift back and forth between the witness and noting throughout the day. I also continue feel a shift in the way my mind works because of it. I've spent more time in meditation going up the arc from the perspective of the witness lately, and it is very effective. One thing that I've discovered though is that if I do take the perspective of the witness in meditation, then noting just seems to get in the way. I'll stop noting and just watch and that is enough to get moving. The only exception is for thoughts that I know are concentration-killers, like thoughts about the meditation instructions or thoughts about work. With those I'll briefly note them so as to more quickly disembed, because I know that they are particularly sticky for me.
Is this how others use the witness when they sit?

Hi Ron,

No need to note if you are doing the Witness. Do one or the other.

"Is this how others use the witness when they sit?
- Ron"

This is how it works for me.

Before I close my eyes:
See how it sits
Who is looking out of these eyes?
Who am I?
It is me.
The Witness

I close my eyes:
The ride starts.
Gentle focus in the middle of the head
Who?
The ride is usually pretty fast.
Some turbulence at 3C and Dukkha nanas
Then peace as I move through the Arupa Jhanas

At this point I am quite locked in the Witness and I need to take care that I do not hold it too tightly. One way to relax it is asking 'who is watching the Witness?' as this makes the Witness thin out (it can even disappear completely for a moment). Sometimes when the mind begins to wander I concentrate on the feeling of watching behind the eyes or ask the question 'Who am I?' This is usually enough to get me back on the track.

Antero

Thanks for the support and advice. I am putting it to use and finding that the witness is a wonderful ally.

I am finding that using the witness rather than noting is much more time-efficient. The ride up the arc is quicker, however, I need to be mindful of stray thoughts leading me off more than during noting. That's usually when I'll fall back to noting for a few moments, and then come back to the witness.
Not that it means anything, but in terms of time, it looks like this: 1st to 11th nana with noting practice is approximately 20 to 35 minutes. The same portion of the path with the witness takes 10 to 18 minutes.

A question: does the witness ever get in the way of having a path moment? The reason I ask is that in high equanimity there are moments where I feel "drawn in" to a certain spot of vibrant activity at the crown of the head, or more recently, slightly above it. When in the witness, the attention seems poised between being drawn in and turned back on itself. The last two times that path occurred I remember being drawn in before it happened. Not quite absorbed but very focused on one spot. I'm wondering if it is more skillful to let go of the witness perspective in the moment when there is an urge to be drawn in.

Hi Ron,
I'm not sure about path moments (I always associated them with intense fruitions after the fact) but my gut says to drop the witness.

If you keep attention in the witness while approaching a fruition you get a so-called rigpa-fruition that we talked about on my thread ages back. Rigpa style is not a blank out but rather a white out - there is a thread of awareness maintained. I don't imagine messing with that pre-path is going to be particularly useful.

There is something about the entrance to a mahasi style fruition is rather paradoxically personal. It requires surrendering the "personal" sensations into the void which is a bit of an existential choice.

Also, are you noting that you are being drawn to something while you are being drawn to it or are you getting sucked into the story about getting path? Sometimes the anticipation of a path moment will produce some craving which can get in the way.

"...are you noting that you are being drawn to something while you are being drawn to it or are you getting sucked into the story about getting path? Sometimes the anticipation of a path moment will produce some craving which can get in the way.



"

Yes and no. This is tricky for me because there is definately some story-making going on during certain points in high equinimity. The "drawn in" feeling is an excellent feedback mechanism because it diminishes the more narrative spin my mind tries to generate. It is almost as if the less "me" there is the more this focus intensifies on its own. That may be why the witness is a bit clunky at that moment, because although it is impersonal, it is a "self" in a sense. I am learning that it is exactly this that I need to surrender.

I really like your advice about the personal choice aspect of this. It rings true. There is an element of "holding on" that has to fade away, and it does so with a choice. Maybe that is why resolutions are so powerful. It gives the mind the choice ahead of time.

Rigpa fruitions sound interesting. I think I'll go back and read that thread - though I'll not play with them until this current work is finished.

An interesting development:

On Monday I had three cessations. Two early in the day that were quick and subtle and one toward the end of the day that was very "heavy." It left me giggling and wondering if it was third path. However, since then I haven't noticed a big change in my baseline, and as far as I can tell I can't access Nirodha. PL is a little different. Up until now I topped out at the 2nd arupa jhana, but since Monday I've been accessing something beyond that but it is hard to describe just yet. It is very calm and deeply content, but I need a little more time to flesh out what is happening.

Practice update:

I had another cessation on Sunday, this one quick and light. No substantial changes to baseline. No Nirodha or PL as far as I can tell.

What I'm accessing beyond 2nd arupa is still a mystery, however, I'm beginning to suspect that I'm going back down the arc and am mistaking 1st arupa for something else.

"What I'm accessing beyond 2nd arupa is still a mystery, however, I'm beginning to suspect that I'm going back down the arc and am mistaking 1st arupa for something else."

Hey Ron,
What's it feel like? What perceptual changes are you noticing as you move into that space?

Hey Ron,

have you tried following Kenneth and me in the jhanic arc videos? Or even the podcast up the arc on the hamiton project. Episode 1 and two. This may give you some handles on what to expect in each jhana, and may even activate access to ones you haven't yet.

Give it a go. Kenneth introduced me to the last 3 pure abode jhanas and by just talking me through it, access was granted. Could work for ya!

Nick

"
What's it feel like? What perceptual changes are you noticing as you move into that space?"

It is easier to describe it in terms of how it changes from the 6th jhana. In the 6th it feels as though the attention is focused at the back of the field of awareness and there is almost a feeling of being locked in or up close to the object. Then as things shift there is a sense of releasing followed by a movement of attention from the back of the head to a spot between and above the eyes. A calm follows that is different from any previously.

@Nik: I love the suggestion to use the video - that's on my list of things to do this week.

"It is easier to describe it in terms of how it changes from the 6th jhana. In the 6th it feels as though the attention is focused at the back of the field of awareness and there is almost a feeling of being locked in or up close to the object. Then as things shift there is a sense of releasing followed by a movement of attention from the back of the head to a spot between and above the eyes. A calm follows that is different from any previously. "

7th Jhana! Does it feel like attention kind of diffuses a little to nothing in particular. Just getting into 7th now, my eye foucs does shift upwards to seemingly look at the spot you mentioned. But it is a direction of the focus of the eyes. There really is not much of a mental focus in the 7th. Unless you call "nothingness" a focus. And the calm that pervades the 7th is the shiznit!

The videos might jog something!

"It is easier to describe it in terms of how it changes from the 6th jhana. In the 6th it feels as though the attention is focused at the back of the field of awareness and there is almost a feeling of being locked in or up close to the object. Then as things shift there is a sense of releasing followed by a movement of attention from the back of the head to a spot between and above the eyes. A calm follows that is different from any previously.

@Nik: I love the suggestion to use the video - that's on my list of things to do this week.
"

Sounds very similar to what I experience. 6th is a very clear experience (definite focus, the being up against something rings very true as does the focus of attention). For me 7th is like the fading out of a lot of what is in focus in 6th (releasing, as you describe it sounds good to me).

I'm interested in how you describe 8th.

Awesomeness Ron!