Keith's first meditation notes, ever!

So now to the practice part. I actually started noting out loud and set the timer for 30min. I do have lag time between a thought and when I remember to note it it takes me a sec to dis-embed. But noting does help me catch it and I feel like I got to where I usually get in half the time. Still not sure where that is but ...
After the 30min I dropped the noting for a bit to try the eye flicker thing that Kenneth told me about and the lip snarl started happening which I noticed and a bit of facial contortions upper lip moving around in a rippling kind of way. Eyes were flickering and then I opened them now and then. Oh I also had a visual thing happening I was watching a vertical music stand ( just to mention my eye sight is pretty bad near sighted so I'm not sure if this is just due to that fact ) and there was a glow faint out line of this black vertical stand that would move slowly expanding out from one side just a few centimeters then from the other side
I thought at first it was sunlight or some type of shadow play but I really don't having anything in front of my windows and like i said it was moving from one side to the other with no particular pacing kinda like a slow pulse . I sat for another 20 min or so just hanging out and exploring the space - strata- ??? i was in eyes open looking at the floor. That's it for now I will start again.

Cheers

Hello there, sat today for 60min mix of eyes open and closed mixing it up the way Kenneth suggested.
It was a pretty interesting sit all told. Started with noting a bit out loud then i dropped that. It is a good deal more difficult to dis-embed when I'm not noting out loud. So I still have no clue as to where i'm ending up on these jaunts but, had the Billy Idol lip contortion thing going on today which seems to happen at a certain point only lasted a min or so, had shortness of breath and what i thought was nausea but I fear a bit of scripting going on since I listen to the Jhanic free for all last night. Then I had surges of pleasant intense sensations sort of orgasmic right on the verge but like a full body orgasm. Are these fruitions? I've been trying the eye flicker thing that Kenneth suggested but I'm not really sure what it's doing. I can really tell I'm going through different strata but with no real comprehension of where I am at any given point. Noting of body sensation is what I always fall back on and no primary object. Today I was trying to make the different states the object of observation but not sure if I actually did. Still really grateful to have somewhere to share this stuff I have no idea how anyone could learn this terrain on there own. Like walking around a new town without a map. Cheers Keith

"Then I had surges of pleasant intense sensations sort of orgasmic right on the verge but like a full body orgasm. Are these fruitions?

"

Hi Keith,

Orgasmic does not sound like fruition. A fruition is the actual cessation of all the senses. That means you lose consciousness for a brief second. Afterwards, many yogis say they fel a soothing wave of blissful sensations. They are not at the level of orgasm though in my experience. What you are describing could be associated with some of the possible A/P phenomena that yogis can experience. I would get blissfully orgasmic stuff come up during that nana.

Keep on keeping on!

I concur with Nick, Keith. Check out the Idiot's Guide to Dharma Diagnosis here:

kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/page/The+...+to+Dharma+Diagnosis

A fruition, which would signify stream entry, aka 1st Path, is an anticlimax. Orgasmic sensations, on the other hand, happen at the 4th nana, Knowledge of the Arising and Passing Away of Phenomena.

The A&P is nothing to sneeze at, however; once you have had it, you are well and truly bitten by the enlightenment bug and nothing less than 4th Path will ultimately satisfy. Keep on keepin' on!

Kenneth

Hey thanks for the clarification Nick. I had no idea fruition was stream entry : )

Cheers

Thanks Kenneth! I did check out the Diagnosis page it's a great help. looking forward to another session with you soon.

Cheers

Sat 60 min this morning, started noting out loud then tried to keep it going internally as the gross sensations became finer
and more full body i resorted to noting mind states and thoughts. Noticed that the sitting is strong and requires very little effort which I attest to keeping up my practice after the last retreat. It simply allows me to observer what's going on without having to think about the basic act of sitting which i do note occasionally. Anyway I had a body contortion thing going on at the very end which was sort of trippy also felt some light slow full body pulsing coming on at one point. The end of the sit found me slowly bending my upper body in a snake like fashion i hunched over at one point. I remember Nik mentioning something like this in the free for all session cant recall which Jhana or Nana that is was? Tried very hard to see if i was doing it and it seemed to really have a life of it's own. Sit was solid awareness seem heightened focus pretty
strong catching the tail end of thoughts or remembering to dis-embed after i was in a thought pulling out of it.

Have not been logging in regularly. Sat yesterday for 60 min. eyes open. I'm finding that the same thing is happening with some regularity. I note out loud for about 30 min then an energy shift occurs which makes it very hard for me to keep noting out loud. This usually shows up with a slight body contortion. So i guess my question is should I force the out loud noting or just let it fall away. I do keep noting at that point It just feel like I giving in to the pleasant trippy feelings.

Cheers

Giving in to the pleasant, trippy feelings isn't bad, Keith, and goodness knows you deserve a break now and again. But you will make better progress if you continue to note. There is nothing you cannot learn to note; learning to note is waking up. If you cannot note, it's because you are absorbed. Absorbed equals embeddedness. Embeddedness is the opposite of enlightenment.

Thanks Kenneth, good morning ! it's about noting aloud. At some point it becomes hard to open my mouth and say the words aloud because the sensations are overwhelming a bit. So I was wondering if I should force myself to keep saying the noting aloud which felt like I'd be interrupting something does that make sense? So I guess being absorbed would equal not noting aloud then?

Hi Keith,

Yes, it's about noting aloud. Check out the video I did with Nick on the 13 jhanas. I was able to talk the whole time without pulling myself out of the states. It's a skill that you can develop. Noting aloud keeps you honest; when you are silent, you might be noting, but you might not. When you are noting aloud, there is no question. The value of this kind of feedback loop is unimaginable. It can make all the difference in a yogi's practice. Without the feedback loop of the spoken note, you can delude yourself for a lifetime that you are noting when in fact you are embedded. With the spoken note, there is no possibility of delusion.

Yes, there are times in your practice when it is fine to be silent for awhile (although continuing to note aloud is also fine). This happens in the equanimity nana, for example. But unless you are sure you are in that nana, I would play it safe and note aloud whenever possible.

In brief, the only thing you are interrupting with noting aloud is embeddedness.

Okay got it thanks for the clarification. I'll incorporate that into the practice.

Wow, gotta say this stuff is doing something alright. Thanks again Kenneth for the clarification and your instructions from our last session. I've been practicing the technics
learning alot on this forum. So sat 60min made a point of trying to note aloud during energy surges and the like.

Grateful I have a teacher and a group to bounce this off of. My friends that I mentioned this too just kinda laughed and said, " call me when you can levitate. "

My body started to sway back and forth at the rate of 1 sway per sec. I had my eyes open and was very skeptical that I was scripting this. So i noted aloud which I thought would break the spell but it continued. My head started to contort back which happened a few sits ago as well. This all started happening after I did the third eye flicker for bit.

I'd love to know where on the Map this stuff takes place. Also had a lack of descriptors
for the energy surges since they seem to be somewhat finer and not distinguishable as separate sensations. My breath seemed to change when this happened shorter. Geting ready for a another sit right now.

Cheers

I've found that if I'm silent and start noting aloud, often there's an immediate sense of the energy picking up. For example, the body will start swaying right away. Keep us posted, Keith!

"My body started to sway back and forth at the rate of 1 sway per sec.
"

I had a lot of those when I was at retreat. Then I read Mahasi, and he said that the swaying is to be disregarded if I remember correctly.
So I am interested in seeing responses to this.

"My body started to sway back and forth at the rate of 1 sway per sec. I had my eyes open and was very skeptical that I was scripting this. So i noted aloud which I thought would break the spell but it continued. My head started to contort back which happened a few sits ago as well. This all started happening after I did the third eye flicker for bit.

I'd love to know where on the Map this stuff takes place. "

Hi Keith,

I'm not a map expert by any stretch, but when I first went through alarmingly intense facial contortions, shaking and shuddering, I was told by Daniel Ingram on DhO that it was "classic A&P territory". It sounds to me like you're in a similar place right now...

Thanks for all the responses. Goenka also says to disregard them
Which I did for years I don' t consider these evens goals just
Points of reference instead of riding some kind of Arch I felt like I was
More like in a jhanic pinbal machine. What draws me to this site and others like it is that we can actually discuss compare and point the way.
Thanks cheers

Would one consider it detrimental to add occasional concentration practice via Anapana or Kasinas if one were adhering to the noting practice as taught by Kenneth here?

Keeping it going. Weekend saw a rough patch of practice. Dating and practicing is an interesting mix. Did not sit on Sunday. Monday one hour tried to sit late at night at work for 20 min or so then at home for another 20min. Noting aloud so special effects. Today sat two 60min a loud noting sessions mid day. swaying started for a while lights contortions. A desire to go on retreat was noted. Bit of mind wandering wanted to go check out Kenneth and the gang tonight in NYC but that'll wait till next week hopefully. also trying to take the noting on the road while walking to the train. I did notice catching the tail end of sensations and noting thoughts after they had passed with a bit of a delay. Pleasant sensations throughout the body full body, then slight aversion to tension and pressure in places. Lots of determination to sit. Oh yeah had the facial thing happened snarling lip quiver during the second sit foot twitching. Wondering about concentration practice via Anapana or Kasinas. I did some reading and I guess this is a bigger point of discussion regarding it's necessity for stream entry. I guess my question is this. Would one consider it detrimental to add occasional concentration practice via Anapana or Kasinas if one were adhering to the noting practice as taught by Kenneth here.


Cheers

Hi Keith,

I practiced kasina mediation in order to get concentrated enough to note. It helped me, in my opinion, to get to Stream Entry. It is fairly easy to do. Get yourself a round object, I used a blue breakfast bowl. You can choose to use a colour that agrees with your eyes and is easy to stare at. The size of a normal breakfast bowl. Set it up in front of where you sit either ground level or at eye level (You can cut out coloured paper to make it easier to stick on the wall instead of a bowl) Whatever is your fancy.

Then just stare at it. Watch the kasina object do its thing. Just keep gently staring at it. If you keep staring at it, your eyes might get strained a bit. You can blink them, but try and stare at it for long periods and see what happens. For me, the kasina would shift and mutate and disappear and reappear, change colours etc. Just keep staring gently at the whole object. My mind got ultra concentrated when I did this. Then I would just do it for 15 odd minutes and close my eyes and switch to noting, or I would close my eyes and "ride" the pleasant sensations which would come up from getting highly concentrated into jhana terrirtory.

The more concentrated the yogi, the faster the progress. Especially if you have already crossed the A/P already.

Try it!

Hi Keith.

I am still not totally clear on what qualifies as an A&P, but I'd offer the following thoughts:

Surges and kriyas (what the Hindu yogis called involuntary movements in meditation) happen all the way throughout the process of kundalini's ascent. Breathing, swaying, crying, physical contractions and postures are big ones. My experience is that they do change over time, but they are pretty repetitious. They have been a constant feature of my meditation for over 15 years now. I am pretty confident that I am 3rd path and they still happen with frequency in any given session.

A bit more: More than A&P per se, what surges seem to signal is a change in energetic state or a push against a physiological limitation. The surge is the nervous system's way of reorganizing itself in force, of throwing off contracted energy. So now I get a strong surge when moving from certain jhanas to others or when the energy pushes farther into the head or against the heart, which is where is my current blocks/activity is now. Looking back, this has been true all along.

There are probably English translation issues here, but I would say "disregard" isn't a good approach, if one takes "disregard" to mean "to view as insignificant." A better idea is "let them be" and "let them unfold." In other words, the best way to be with a surge to let go fully into it--take them as objects of concentration--or to watch it with warm (not cold) detachment.

Mark

Keith, I see this as a very individual matter. Some observations:

1) Powerful concentration, of the kind developed by gazing at kasina objects, can be an enormous support for insight practice.

2) For people who are not naturally inclined toward pure concentration meditation, it can be frustrating and frankly a waste of time; such people would be better off spending all their practice time noting.

3) One-size-fits-all never seems to fit everybody. Is kasina gazing consistent with my teaching? Yes, absolutely, for some yogis, but not for all. Which kind are you? This is what we have to determine. Why do you want to do it again? Is it to avoid "rough patches?" Then, I would not bother; rough patches can be temporarily suppressed, but only at the expense of progress. If, on the other hand, you have a genuine interest in samatha (pure concentration) meditation, and feel that it is supporting and enhancing your insight work, it may be a good idea.

Thanks Nik, Mu sent me a link to a blue circle and I've given it a whirl once or twice. My questions to you as a Old Goenka student is your use of Anapana. Seems it is also there for concentration. I've stopped doing it at all since taking up the noting so I think I like the toolbox things that gets mentioned here a lot. Meaning take it all with you and use as needed. Did get some nice vibes from watching the circle. I'll add notes in my post as I go. THanks

Thanks Mark this is helpful. I'm new to the terms surges and kriyas. I had things like this come up on retreat but never had a place to talk about them or put them in context. Today I sat for two 60min session and the first had a bunch of swaying twisting breath quickening etc. at one point my head was going back and forth like i was saying know and then I straightened up like I was being pulled up a bit. So I'm feeling more comfortable letting them happen helps to hear what they are cause it is a bit freaky to me still. To this point they ( gestures twisting surges )are repeating themselves pretty consistently.

Cheers

Thanks Kenneth,
I guess I'm just getting the teachings organized and comparing a bit Goenka has students do Anapana for a few days before switching to insight. We are then told to practice Anapana when needed. Your points are very informative and point 3 is very good for me to hear because of course I see others doing it so I want to too. : ) Little Monkey mind.

I wasn't really looking for a way through the rough patches since my sits have been pretty effortless since my last retreat I mean a bit of wandering boredom and the like but not so much noise and very little pain when I sit for 60min. That being said I do not underestimate a laser like mind and if I can get mine a bit sharper I'm down.

See you on Tuesday.

Cheers

Wow so it's been a whole week since the last entry. I sat a total of 4 hours with a small group of Goenka Meditators on Sunday 45- 50 min each sit. Was interesting noting silently the quite and strong sitting habits helped to calm the mind.
Got a chance to attend the NYC group meeting with Kenneth and crew. Thanks again Kenneth and Ian for hooking that up.