Ron's "Now What?" Journal

"Maybe it's the ability to be mindful of the gooey cheesy goodness, more then the sandwich itself."

But the cheese and the sandwich are the same!! Ha!

I haven't been posting much because I've been focused on getting the teaching going and getting the website some friggin' content. I got to hand it to Kenneth, creating content for a site is a primo pain in the... neck.

I really want feedback on the content though - so please don't hesitate to call me out on anything there that you think is off or misrepresents what the path is. The last thing I want to do is create a bunch of stuff on my own with no feedback. Also don't hesitate to let me know if you want to post something there.

Current practice stuff:
As 4th path settles down I am noticing that there is more to do. Strange. There is a sense of "doneness" that is unmistakable, and is showing up mostly as a complete lack of interest in formal sitting. But there is now a growing sense of something that is kind of similar to the "insight disease" that 4th path cures. It doesn't feel as urgent, but it is growing in urgency in some deep way that is hard to put my finger on.

The DM practice does scratch that itch somewhat. Perhaps this is the remaining bits of self, more subtle than what got disempowered at 4th path, but still there and still causing some suffering.

It makes sense to me now why arahats would be interested in stuff like AF and PCEs. Or Advaita, or other types of nondual stuff. Though the self is not fully in charge anymore, there are still plenty of instances of the self in some form causing suffering.

Wow, Ron, I just looked at your site for the first time and I think it's terrific. Can't wait to go back and spend more time there reading the posts.

(For those of you who missed the link it's:)

alohadharma.wordpress.com/

Ron, I wish you the greatest success in your new role as meditation teacher.

Metta and mudita,

Kenneth

Thanks Kenneth!


BTW - I posted a video of a researcher giving a presentation on the "Adverse Effects of Contemplative Practice" alohadharma.wordpress.com/2011/04/26/res...fects-of-meditation/

This is pretty much what we were all discussing on the thread called "dark night and depression" and is a lot like the research project that I envisioned doing. I've contact the researcher and we are now collaborating on the project, which is still in the data collection phase.

Because I'm collecting data, I am interested in interviewing people regarding their DN experiences. If you would be interested in participating, please let me know.

Great talk. The dark night really sucks

Thankfully I can really sit through it now and it's seen as impersonal.

If I may I'd like to try to put some finer detail (and maybe introduce some model conflict) into the comments made in #76 by Ron, but from my personal perspective:

To say anything is "done" after what we all here call 4th path attainment is, I often think, doing the word "done" a disservice. What seems to me to have happened is not that anything really got "done" as much as some things became more clear. There was a period of wondering for me, too, but that ended soon enough when I realized I was not "done" in any real sense, but still on a continuing journey the nature of which had changed due to the opening of a new perspective.

That change of perspective is the realization of what I now call the "non-hierarchical nature of experience." There is no "me" running or controlling my experience, as I had previously assumed. There is just experience, and that is all I have, have had, will ever have. So the nature of my inquiry has changed. My previous longing for transparency of experience has changed from being a quest to discover what my experience is constructed of to my current quest to manage my life on a moment to moment basis in congruence with my experience as it plays out all by itself. The habits formed by a lifetime of building a "me" around which to interpret my experience do not go away quickly or easily, and without constant attention they crop up and I am back in reaction mode, samsara, ignorance, whatever we decide to call it.

Anyway, there is quite obviously a lot more to do from my perspective, but the path I need to take seems more clear, and now revolves around the ongoing resolution of my immediate experience, seeing it as it is, and dropping the pieces that used to be obscure or invisible.

I'm just trying to dovetail my experience to that of others so that we can compare notes in various ways.

Edit - grammar

Ron,
I haven't commented on your site because I've only given it a quick look. But, it looks great. I read "the myth of mindfulness" and I really like your writing style. Very straight forward with no pretension. Mindfulness comes across as something "we" can all do, not some airy fairy magic BS. Great job, I'll comment when I get a bit of time to dig a little deeper. Thanks for putting in the effort to help others, it does my heart good to see.

"There was a period of wondering for me, too, but that ended soon enough when I realized I was not "done" in any real sense, but still on a continuing journey the nature of which had changed due to the opening of a new perspective. "

There is really something to this. I think that I along with most everybody goes into all this expecting that 4th will be the end of the path. Even if we say that we know it isn't and discuss post-4th practices, there is a part of us that longs for 4th to be the final big thing that will solve everything.

It just isn't. What it really is is the start of something new. In one sense something is done, in that the work of trying to see clearly is finally accomplished, but then the big question that comes up is, now that I can see clearly what am I going to do about it? Even then - the "I" is trying to do something - suggesting that there is more to see clearly.

I'm noticing that while pre-4th practices can diverge in some interesting ways, post-4th practices can be very different. Everyone seems to be on a similar developmental trajectory after 4th in that there is this period of settling and integration of the insight into daily life, but how it gets expressed seems to be really different from one person to another.

I like the term "non-hierarchical nature of experience" because that really does tap into the key characteristic of all this. Self is no longer the center of the universe - and there seems to be no center. But at least at first there is this difficulty grasping what has happened and bringing it into one's personal reality. When the "self" isn't the organizing principle of experience - what is? How do you begin to make sense of life? I think that is where I am right now in all this...

"Ron,
I haven't commented on your site because I've only given it a quick look. But, it looks great. I read "the myth of mindfulness" and I really like your writing style. Very straight forward with no pretension. Mindfulness comes across as something "we" can all do, not some airy fairy magic BS. Great job, I'll comment when I get a bit of time to dig a little deeper. Thanks for putting in the effort to help others, it does my heart good to see."

Thanks so much Rev, it means a lot. When you sit down to write this stuff out you think it makes sense, but there is always a lingering doubt. And the internet is so weird when it comes to publishing stuff. You hit the button and it is suddenly out there. It's not like a journal article where it gets reviewed and edited and accepted - so who knows if it's any good?

Like I said before - any feedback (even negative) is welcome!

"How do you begin to make sense of life?"

JHMO, but that's the wrong question to ask. It gets fixed if you replace "how" with "why." The drive to make sense of everything will always go unresolved, unless we're willing to stay inside our own stories.

"The drive to make sense of everything will always go unresolved, unless we're willing to stay inside our own stories." ~Chris

I just wanted everyone to read that again.

I think it's wise to be on the lookout for subjective experiences of "making sense" or of having things "resolved". In fact, the same is true of experiences of confusion and dissonance. In either case, what are the underlying assumptions? Assumptions are the grand building blocks of views, and views can be very, very sticky.

Good solid advice.

There continues to be this 'me" that is trying to work it all out. It is creating the problem it is trying to solve. Yet, I wonder if this isn't a normal part of early post-4th experience? Isn't this just another thing to resolve into the here and now?

Nothing to resolve, and no one to resolve it.

It really is ironic. I think a part of me, and probably a part of all of us, gets started down this path to resolve something or make sense of life. We try to adopt right view and put in right effort to get it done.

Now here I am. Nothing resolved. No sense to it.

But is there peace? Yep.

The sense is no sense. It's letting go completely.

And letting go of letting go?

"is there even anyone here to surrender?"

""The drive to make sense of everything will always go unresolved, unless we're willing to stay inside our own stories." ~Chris

I just wanted everyone to read that again."

I second Jackson's highlighting of this, it's a good point well made.

This sense of trying to resolve something is just another thing to chase when, really, there's nothing to resolve, the answer is already there in the question, as cliched as it sounds. It's great to see these sorts of discussions which put all this "4th path" stuff in real terms, hugely helpful and refreshingly clarifying.

Ron
I've had a little more time to take a look at your site:
alohadharma.wordpress.com/ .
I think what I like most is the mix of the intellectual and spiritual. I think you've struck a good balance. So often I find sites that only acknowledge one side of that coin, at best ignoring the other, at worst suggesting the other is a foolish waste of time. "Psychological Self vs. No-Self" illustrates this balance perfectly. As a meditation teacher(on the site) I imagine you'll lean more heavily to the spiritual, but a grounding in the intellectual is refreshing.
Thanks for the good work, and don't drive yourself too hard with all the projects.

Thanks Rev! I'm trying not to push it too hard, but I have a lot of conditioning to push way too hard - need to watch that.

I'm glad that you appreciate the intellectual aspect - I wasn't really sure how much of that to focus on, but ultimately, I don't think I can't help it much even if it were a bad idea.

In terms of practice - I am not sure but I think I might have turned a corner with this DM practice. Yesterday it suddenly started to become effortless, and it seems like it is always going on in the background now. The way that I can tell is that my mood is waaaaaay better overall. I'm pretty relaxed and happy, even more than usual. We'll see if it lasts, but it looks good today. I was aware of it throughout the whole workday...

sounds good on the turn of events with Direct Mode... I think this is what Kenneth is talking about when he says that you have more "awake moments than asleep ones" and this is like, im happy..... happy...happy...happy... oh there is that pesky sense of self again, just relax.... happy.....happy....happy... peaceful.....relaxed.....surrender....let go.... happy..... and the DM is just holding the dead man switch, letting everything self liberate itself and letting go of everything.

Aloha from the Big Island o/

Hi Ron,
Just wanted to say that your site is really good. It has a very sober and rational feeling.
One thing that the site never really brings up is "why"?
What is the benefits. Why do this? (I think Rev had a similar question).
People here probably has a clue, but a total beginner (that you seems to adress) may need some hints to be interested in practice.

It is bookmarked...
/Pejn

"Aloha from the Big Island o/"

Mahalo man!

PEJIN - thanks so much for the feedback! Keep it coming. I think I will add a "why meditate?" page. I am trying to make the site friendly for beginners, so that makes sense.

Just read the "Why meditate" article on your site. Good Job! You tell the truth clearly, all anyone can ask for. One thing I was confused about as a beginner was the use of "I" and "me"(in quotations). I only began to understand it after I meditated for a while. Explaining the difference between I and "I" my be difficult, but it is something I would have appreciated. Although without meditating I don't know if I ever would have gotten it Or if I get it now. Just a suggestion that may be of benefit to your readers. Keep up the good work!!

I'm back!

I took a break there from posting for about 6 weeks or so as I finished up work on the site. What I did was create a series of pages that describe the progress of insight in terms of the nanas. Any feedback, as always, is much appreciated.

In terms of practice, this DM practice is tricky for me. For some reason I'll think that I've got it, will find that it is always going on in the background, and then completely forget about it and realize that it was lost. Over the course of a day I'll spend probably 30% in DM (waking hours).

I talked with Kenneth about this and it is clear that while I have the grounding technique down, what seems to be missing, or is not done with much clarity, is the noting of mind-states and emotions. It is really ironic, because a lot of my job is trying to help people describe and name their emotions, yet I'm finding that I kind of stink at it myself. On the wall in my office I have a chart that kids (and grownups) can use to find the emotion that they are feeling and I think I'm going to start using it myself to get the noting going:
1.bp.blogspot.com/_s5cRFNi0sYo/SiI0j7Hl_...s1600-h/feelings.jpg

Welcome Back!
Love the poster, I was slightly horrified to see what I look like while meditating, confusion and frustration.
I thinks it's often easier to help others then to help ourselves, sad but true.