Alex's experiment with the grounding of emotions

@Mumuwu & Gozen - yes Direct Mode is essentially Shikantaza and "How am I experiencing this moment of being alive?" is a good practical way to extend the mind state of Zazen to everyday life.

Having experienced mind-blowing visions, mystical states and enlightenment events, we finally get to appreciate Nishijima's "eating a tangerine Is real enlightenment"

Ownerless fingers dance about on the laptop keys that feel slightly oily and smooth to the touch. Moving hands feel the crisp winter air coming in from the window to the right along the top as the palms feel warmed by the heat rising up off the laptop battery. The warmth contrasts strikingly with the icey air. The noise from the TV hits the very edge of the ears, the cognizing of spanish immediate and unhindered. The body sinks into sensuousness.

Beautifully expressed, Nikolai. I must confess that I used to find the Buddhist notion of 'no-self' scary, if not nihilistic. The reality is that when there is no self, the ordinary becomes extra-ordinary.

So far so good. I havent't yet experienced any form of anger, anxiety, fear, sorrow, greed, etc. beside fleeting mind states arising and passing away at high speed.

Tonight's meditation took me through the Jhanas. I first started with Nikolai's first method and identified the feeling "I AM" with the Jhana factors of each of the Jhanas, stripping down the sense of self through the Rupa and Arupa Jhanas. At the 8th Jhana of 'neither-perception nor non-perception', existence started to feel like a burden. Being able to let go of this last attachment must be nibanna, i.e., liberation, freedom from becoming. This also means that at a point I will have to make a choice. Crossing the gate, there is no coming back.

I then went down through the Jhanas and then back to the 5th. Taking infinite space as the main object of concentration, I started to include the physical sensations and feelings through which the sense of existence is experienced in this particular Jhana. Going back and forth between infinite space and the feeling of existence, I started to investigate its actual nature (location, quality, warmth, etc.) until nothing was left but infinite space and physical sensations. Then both started to blend. What was left was neither matter, nor mind. In the absence of grasping at specific feelings, the sense of self dissolved into this one substance.

Tomorrow, I will try to combine both methods to strip down the sense of self until I reach infinite space in the 5th Jhana, before switching to the second technique to dissolving the remaining sense of self. I will then use the 6th, 7th and 8th Jhana.

Getting used to the dissolution of the remaining sense of self during sitting meditation should allow "me" to recall these non-dual states during everyday life, "until they become the only game in town" (as Daniel Ingram put it in a PM a while ago).

Some advice that was very helpful for myself was to play around with cause and effect. Why does the sense of "being' arise? What causes its cessation? Why does "being" re-arise? What if the cause for the arising of "being" was ceased? How does it cease? if I do this, does it cease, if I do that does it cease? How can the cessation of "being" be lengthened? Is there ignorance of something? Of what? What dispels ignorance? Is there any subtle neutrality there that is being overlooked as a possible manifestation of "being"?

It needs to be taken to a level where this is seen in real time in minute detail. When the sense of "being" drops and arises, drops and arises, pay extremely close attention to why it drops and why arises, and when that is sussed out as far as you can take it, then you will know what to do to flip the switch.

"As you do this, seek to understand the causality going on. Discern the causes and conditions and simply play around with the subtle details of implementing this approach. From the cultivation of this discernment, ignorance fades away / knowledge arises, and with the fading of ignorance, '˜I' too fade away."

Keep in mind the two wrong directions:

1/ Desire for more becoming. This may result in clinging and attachment to very subtle neutral states of affective equanimity, or attachment to subtle bliss. Apperception is the solution. What underlies the sense of "being"? Actuality (yatha buta).

2/ Desire for non-becoming (self-annihilation). This is a tricky one. Go too far and it's just running in circles. 'I' want to end 'me'. It doesn't work. It just ends up with a bitter frustrated sense of "me" and more becoming. Apperception is the solution. Looking at cause and affect i.e. old school discernment is key.

Watch for these two tendencies.

Hey Alex, I'm a magick guy too so it'd be interesting to hear how you view AF/Fetter-Model Arahat from this perspective. It's something I've been thinking about quite a lot but I don't really frequent any other sites so I rarely discuss it on here. I'm considering the view that perhaps Ipsisimus is the same thing as AF, and not the equivalent of technical 4th path as suggested by Alan Chapman. I know you guys know a lot more than me about this since I was only ever a solo practitioner with the mix and match of chaos magick so it'd be interesting to get your viewpoint.

A Crowley quote which has always struck me as peculiar is: "Let the Magus then contemplate each in turn, raising it to the ultimate power of Infinity. Wherein Sorrow is Joy, and Change is Stability, and Selflessness is Self. For the interplay of the parts hath no action upon the whole. And this contemplation shall be performed not by simple meditation -- how much less then by reason! -- but by the method which shall have been given unto Him in His initiation to the Grade."

"The method" having been nirodha samapatti, or shivadarshana, as the entrance to Ipsissimus. This whole resolution of opposites once and for all is shown to be wonderfully true in PCE so I've been playing with the idea. I may be miles from the mark but I thought it made for an interesting idea.

Do you see any major correlations between fetter model 4th path, AF and the end point of other Western magickal systems?

Sorry if I'm sidetracking your thread, we can chat about it on another thread if you'd prefer.

Best of luck with this experiment.

Hi Tommy,

This is very interesting and worthy of consideration. I also thought about it, but for the time being still believe that Crowley's map stops at MCTB technical 4th path, maybe because of the fact that his personal life doesn't suggest a complete extinction of passions and a permanent state of 'No-Self'. From what I can tell, DuQuette seemed to agree with Alan and Duncan's model, even if he doesn't talk much about it openly. This will require more investigation. The problem is that beside Crowley's books, we don't find that many magicians (outside our group) who have really explored this territory and/or are willing to talk about it.

More than Crowley, I think that Gurdjieff must have been close to the AF/Fetter-Model Arahat.

Great tips, Nick!

Nick gave me a lot to ponder. I have spent one of two hours this morning examining this sense of self, deconstructing it into its parts, like a mad scientist.

From what I could see, being is the flavor of phenomena. What is, is. And this is-ness has the flavor of existence. Due to the mind's tendencies towards grasping and aversion, we tend to focus part of our attention on a cluster of sensations and feelings that form of kind of knot of phenomena, which due to its density stands out from the totality of experience and creates the illusion of a separate self.

What objectless all inclusive meditation (including HAIETMOBA, shikantaza, mahamudra, direct perception, etc) does is to loosen this grasping habit until the knot unties itself for a while, leading to non-dual experiences (EEs, PCEs) where the sense of self drops. What happens in reality is not that something is suddenly extinguished, but only that one sees through the illusion.

What also worked to generate EEs, was to clearly identify the affective feelings glued to physical sensations conspiring to create the illusion of a separate existence, while looking for "that" which feels and senses these feelings and sensations. Pointing a spotlight on the snake reveals that it is only a rope. These sensations and feelings are as such harmless, as harmless as a rope.

I realize that all this is really 'Buddhism for Dummies', which proves that we always needs to go back to the bascis with a beginner's mind.

Yes. And there are longer and shorter paths to seeing the "IS-ness" of everything. In the end they all seem to intersect in the same place -- a non-dual experience of the universe, the dropping away of the self, just like Dogen said:

""To study the buddha way is to study the self. To study the self is to forget the self. To forget the self is to be actualized by myriad things. When actualized by myriad things, your body and mind as well as the bodies and minds of others drop away. No trace of realization remains, and this no trace continues endlessly."

That man was poetry.

Are you guys, Alex and Chris, using the term "IS-ness" in the same way?

The "IS-ness" Alex seems to be referring to, and I have had the same experience, drops away when the sense of existing/being, drops away. As they are the same thing. In a PCE and AF there is no sense of "IS-ness". The "IS-ness" seemingly referred to by Alex is the sense of existing, the sense of "being" etc. as far as I read what he just wrote. Is this right Alex?

I think "IS-ness" being talked of here is unclear. Care to elaborate, Chris? Does "IS-ness" drop away when the self drops away? If not then we are talking about a different take on "IS-ness". You may be pointing to the same "IS-ness" though as the AF has been refered to as the universe waking up to itself.

Edited to ask out of curiosity: What is consciousness without an object exactly? How are you using the word "consciousness"? This is something you referred to on another forum.

"I realize that all this is really 'Buddhism for Dummies', which proves that we always needs to go back to the bascis with a beginner's mind."

Yeah, it's been humbling for me too! But this is a good way to be humbled.

The IS-ness I'm referring to is a non-dual experience where there is no I, me or mine to interfere with the perception of the universe. Things appear as they "just are" or as it "is." There a sense of timelessness, of impersonal existence (nor my existence but "EXISTENCE" without any hint of ownership, resistance, aversion or personalization of any kind.

Does that help, Nick?

Of course, it all depends on what your definition if "is" is....

Ah, Ok. Yes this is helpful. When you say there is a "sense of timelessness, of impersonal existence" seems to point to a different take on "IS-ness". I may be wrong. For the sake of clarification of terms, I'll explain the doubt.

There is no sense of time in a PCE/AF when the sense of "being", no matter how refined it has become, is absent. There is no sense of anything to do with time. Time nor timelessness is not sensed at all, as there is just apperceived mind moments one after another continuous, non-stop arising and passing.

Is the sense of "timelessness" something considered in hindsight or is it a feeling of some sort sensed or felt in the very moment? I would say we are not talking about the same thing if it is the latter.

If we are equating EXISTENCE to actuality, the actual world, the fact that there is this mind/body organism and many mind /body organisms made of flesh and blood, the great elements, and trees, air, the earth, the sky, the sun, experienced continuously without any felt sense of separate entity, not sensed nor felt in any form whatsoever, then perhaps we are talking about the same thing and can be made permanent as far as I see thus far.

This get sticky, doesn't it?

When I used the word "timelessness" it meant no time sense at all, no time at all, time not being part of the consideration, not existing, and so on.

Ok, then we are on the same page with the term "timelessness" being a descriptive term not for a feeling in the moment but for a condition described for the sake of describing.

BTW - I cannot adequately describe this "experience" in words. Using words will always be inadequate and fall far, far short.

Hey guys, just back from a two hours vipassana session at a local Zen center in Beijing, followed by an hour chat with the teacher. We both came to the conclusion that the best thing to teach was basic vipassana (his style is more like U Ba Khin, often strait from the Satipatthana Agama), since we always go back to it, as mentioned by EndinSight.

Back to our discussion. I agree that I have to use precise words to make sure that we are all talking about the same thing. The following words should therefore be understood as follows:

By *IS-ness*, I meant the *suchness* or *thusness* of what is.
By *consciousness* I mean the aggregate of consciousness,
By *reflexive consciousness*, I refer to *the sense of being*, *sense of self* or what Yogachara Buddhism calls the 7th consciousness.

Now can we equate *actuality* or *actual world* with *suchness* (Skt. Tathata)? In "my" experience when the *sense of self* drops, there is still a sense that everything is, appears, manifests and is just so, perfect as it is. it seems to match the Buddhist's description of *suchness*, but I don't know if it has something to do with the *actual world* of AF as experienced in a full PCE (since I havent experienced one yet).

"
""To study the buddha way is to study the self. To study the self is to forget the self. To forget the self is to be actualized by myriad things. When actualized by myriad things, your body and mind as well as the bodies and minds of others drop away. No trace of realization remains, and this no trace continues endlessly."
"


This also shows how silly the no-self vs buddha-nature controversy has been. When no-self is realized (soft is forgotten), what remains is buddha-nature (the myriad things apprehended in their suchness).

"And this no trace continues endlessly" points to the fact that there is no end to enlightenment. Later Dogen adds: "those who have great realization of delusion are buddhas; those who are greatly deluded about realization are sentient beings. Further, there are those who continue realizing beyond realization, who are in delusion throughout delusion. When buddhas are truly buddhas they do not necessarily notice that they are buddhas. However, they are actualized buddhas, who go on actualizing buddhas."

Hi Alex, have you tried dwelling as the 'witness' lately, as i believe that the disillusion of the so called 'witness' is what happens at Kenneths 7th stage.
Could be well worth checking out the video link for this stage. "The stick that stirs the fire and eventually burns its self out"

" Hi Alex, have you tried dwelling as the 'witness' lately, as i believe that the disillusion of the so called 'witness' is what happens at Kenneths 7th stage.
Could be well worth checking out the video link for this stage. "The stick that stirs the fire and eventually burns its self out""


Hi Stephen,

Yes, I did and I intend to do it more in relation with Nick's technique (the witness being related to the 6th jhana). But having collected a few good tools - thanks to the great tips and advice from all of you -, I am going back to stage one, grounding emotions in the body, in order to get the job done at this level first.

In this respect, I went back to Kenneth's initial description of the method in his Direct Path videos. The two additional techniques are the simple HAIETMOBA every five or ten seconds, as well of what Antero mentioned on this thread a few days ago about noting mental states. I realized that when facing strong unwholesome emotions, like various forms of anger or fear, this is really the best technique.

For memory, the idea is to label the mental state(s) with mental notes while identifying the related physical sensations in real time. What happens then is that the noting gets synchronized with the physical sensations, while the emotions evaporates (the illusion ceases since we are able to brake it into elements, i.e.,sensations, thoughts, mental states, feelings, invested sense of self). At a point it vibrates quickly and turns into a form of rapturous bliss, pretty much like entry into A&P. I think that this is what Antero was describing and I must say that it is pretty amazing when witnessed for the first time. Gaining confidence with it, I now see the challenges of everyday life as great opportunities to get deeper into this.

Just out of sitting practice, using Kenneth's Direct Mode technique (from his Direct Path videos) as a form of Zazen. I then noted mental states and could only note peace, joy, compassion, equanimity, while anxiety and fear were only experienced as a physical sensations. When asking "who am I?", no gross *self-referencing* was experienced, just sensations, thoughts and sense activity, without a 'me' or a 'mine'.

Now this was only during formal sitting practice. Real life is another matter. But, it gives a glimpse of what it could be as a permanent states. This stuff is definitely fascinating!

Hi out there,
For me "who am I?", HAIETMOBA, Beeing, shikantaza and direct path lead all into the same state. Are there any differences for you guys? (I mean not in the beginning but after several hours of practice). A PCE is probably something completely different isn't it?

Hi Loco Austriaco,

They are in way similar, yes. As far as I can tell:

- HAIETMOBA leads to a natural state of open focus awareness. Richard's description of *apperception* being of cut paste of Bhante Henepola Gunartarana's description of *mindfulness* in 'Vipassana in Plain English', there isn't anything new to it It, beside the fact that it is very a convenient tool to cultivate this state during everyday life.

- in Shikantaza, the attention is focused on the body as a whole, while allowing thoughts and experiences to come an go. This is also a state of broad open focus vipassana. The main difference is related to the fact that one is to practice with the faith that zazen is itself the actualization of enlightenment, until one realizes that it is actually the case, after years of practice.

- Direct Path as described by Kenneth is focused on grounding of emotions within the body, and in particular energetic disruptions directly related to a condition of latent anxiety. As such it is identical to shikantaza, but can be combined with it.

- Who am I? is the core method of Ramana Maharishi's direct path. By *direct path* Ramana meant the path that points directly to who we are, instead of focusing on what we are not like Vipassana and the "neti, neti" (not this, not that) of traditional Vedanta. In my experience it turns awareness back to itself and highlights the feelings and sensations associated to self-referencing (Nisargadatta's "feeling I AM"). With practice, these sensations and feelings then start to be seen as objects, stripping down the sense of self until nothing remains but 'That'. I can therefore say that at a stage it starts to feel like shikantaza, yet the method is different.