Alex's experiment with the grounding of emotions

Hi Jackson,

yes, here are some suttas that i found helpful:

www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.044.than.html

www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an06/an06.063.than.html

Aso this sutta where vedana is used to describe how the 3 vedana of neutral, pleasant and unpleasant expand out to 108 types of vedana was helpful. This sort of made the notion that 'I' (a felt sense of exisiting/being) am my feelings and my feelings are 'me' make more sense in the context of what may go into cessation along with sanna (perception/cognition).

www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn36/sn36.022.nypo.html

Edit: There is a sutta which talks of the faculties being bright while in this type of nirodha. I can't find which sutta it's in yet. But will look later. It insinuates that there is no lack of consciousness.

Thanks.

Nick

"Edit: There is a sutta which talks of the faculties being bright while in this type of nirodha. I can't find which sutta it's in yet. But will look later. It insinuates that there is no lack of consciousness. "

I don't recall the name, but for anyone who cares to look, AEN brought out a link to it in the thread "Relating Buddhism and the PCE."

Thank you, Nick!

Ok, found it: Kamabhu Sutta. It's a great description of what seems to occur with this 'other' NS. Bodily formations cease first. My breath will automatically cease. Then verbal formations will cease. No thoughts of any kind will arise at all. Then mental formations will cease. Here I find it hard to describe. Something gets shut down that makes it the experience it is. But there is no complete cessation of all the senses. In the quote below, notice where it says that for a yogi in this NS, their faculties are clear and bright? How would they be clear and bright when in cessation of all senses?

www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn41...1.006.than.html#fn-2

"Very good, venerable sir." And, delighting in and approving of Ven. Kamabhu's answer, Citta asked him a further question: "What is the difference between a monk who has died & passed away and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling?"

"In the case of a monk who has died & passed away, his bodily fabrication has ceased & subsided, verbal fabrication has ceased & subsided, mental fabrication has ceased & subsided, his life force is totally ended, his heat is dissipated, and his faculties are shut down. But in the case of a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling, his bodily fabrication has ceased & subsided, verbal fabrication has ceased & subsided, mental fabrication has ceased & subsided, his life force is not ended, his heat is not dissipated, and his faculties are bright & clear. This is the difference between a monk who has died & passed away and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling."[2]

"In the quote below, notice where it says that for a yogi in this NS, their faculties are clear and bright? How would they be clear and bright when in cessation of all senses?"

I think the key to this is in understanding what is meant by "fabrications" (i.e. formations, right?). I'm not sure, but I think that fabrication - within the context of the practice of meditation (specifically concentration/jhana) - is a process whereby something is influenced through intention (like experimenting with the breath as a means to generate more pleasure and less pain). Maybe this other type of NS has is describing the experience of sense media when one has fully (but temporarily) let go of fabrication/influence of body, speech, and mind (feeling and perception). I guess this could be "unmediated experience" taken to its furthest reaches. Or, maybe not. I'm speculating a bit, of course

"I think the key to this is in understanding what is meant by "fabrications" (i.e. formations, right?). I'm not sure, but I think that fabrication is a process whereby something is influenced through intention. Maybe this other type of NS has is describing the experience of sense media when one has fully (but temporarily) let go of fabrication/influence of body, speech, and mind (feeling and perception). I guess this could be "unmediated experience" taken to its furthest reaches. Or, maybe not. I'm speculating a bit, of course "

Yeh, formations/fabrication/sankharas could be interpreted a variety of ways. I think I would have to sit all day in this 'other' NS to really understand what is dropping, as I only do it for a number of seconds here and there out of curiosity which does not last long, and thus the lack of exploration. But I was accessing it with a little more effort needed before the last perceptual shift, so maybe some other yogis who have experimented can comment on what they see dropping away. When the sense of "being" was still dominant, it was that sense of "being" which was absent in this experience. Now it's absent all the time, so it's harder to see what else has dropped.

@Jackson - sorry for not replying earlier. I have been verys busy with business negotiations. Yes, it fit Anadi's description. Seems that we are starting to discover a whole new dimension. Exciting!

@Nick - "When the sense of "being" was still dominant, it was that sense of "being" which was absent in this experience. Now it's absent all the time, so it's harder to see what else has dropped" - what drops is the sense of being. Since this has become a default state for you, you may also feel a sense of absolute stillness and rest similar to deep sleep, but with awareness. If we don't make an effort to get out it, it feels like one could spend hours in this state.

Since we are often using the term "affect", I should clarify that I use it for clinging (upadana) in a specific context. This is how I understand the method and strategy. But correct me if I am wrong.

Sense contact lead to feelings (vedana). Thus, the sensations feel pleasant, unpleasant or neutral. No problem so far. But then there is craving (tanha) for the pleasant (root of greed), avoidance of the unpleasant (root of hatred) and in some cases the experience both that leads to confusion, etc. This causes grasping or clinging (upadana), which is the "affect" we are talking about, giving an impression that these sensations and feelings are mine.

This leads to becoming (bhava), which is experienced as the arising of a sense of "me", "I". This then leads to the brith of the sense of self (Jati) or feeling "I AM". This sense of self arises again and again moment by moment, creating a flow of birth and death [of the sense of self in this particular context] that leads to the illusion of a permanent self. This flow of becoming is samsara and samsara is suffering. Putting an end to the flow of becoming of the continuous birth and death of the sense of existence that conditions the illusion of an abiding self is the cessation (nirodha) of suffering (dukkha), the end of conditioned existence. Freedom from conditioned existence is the unconditioned, nibanna.

Therefore, right mindfulness, or what AF calls 'apperception', directed at the sense doors and in particular to the sensations that support a sense of self allows us to become mindful of sense contact and feelings (vedana) alone. When observed with dispassion, "tanha" does not arise. Sensations and feelings are seens as sensations and feelings (they are actualized in AF terms). As a result, there is no affect (clinging/"upadana"). Consequently, the [illusory] sense of self drops momentarily and eventually forever.

"Therefore, right mindfulness, or what AF calls 'apperception', directed at the sense doors and in particular the sensations that support a sense of self allows us to become mindful of sense contact and feelings (vedana) alone. When observed with dispassion, "tanha" does not arise. Sensations and feelings are actualized (if AF terms). As a result there is no clinging (upadana/affect). Consequently, the [illusory] sense of self drops momentarily and eventually forever.
"

Win!

Here is a Chinese Ch'an/Zen variation of a very similar practice at the root of Japanese Shikantaza, described by Master Sheng-yen:

"In silent illumination you start with being aware that you are sitting. As you focus on being aware of yourself sitting, and the body sensation itself disappears, you should still maintain the thought that you are sitting. While you maintain this thought, be clearly aware of the environment around you. Be aware that the environment is also sitting with you. After that, you even put down the thought of 'I am sitting' so that there is no 'I' who is sitting. There is just a clarity that you maintain, but the 'I' is not there. If there comes a moment when you ask, Where am I? Is my 'self' still there? At this moment you have left your method and are involved with wandering thoughts. Just go back to the method, being acutely aware of yourself sitting"

(Sheng-yen, introductory dharma talk at the beginning of a ten-day intensive retreat at the Dharma Drum Retreat Center in Pine Bush, New York).

Let's re-name this topic "Alex's Grand Unification of Various Global Meditation Methods"

"
Let's re-name this topic "Alex's Grand Unification of Various Global Meditation Methods"



"


lol, Chris - yeah, this thread is becoming a kind of interactive blog around that theme.

"Win!"

Seriously. Alex, post #232 is a real gem.

Also, as could/should be expected at this point, the synchronicity between what you're writing about and the cutting edge of my practice is uncanny.

"Seriously. Alex, post #232 is a real gem.

Also, as could/should be expected at this point, the synchronicity between what you're writing about and the cutting edge of my practice is uncanny."


Great! It seems that we always in syncro, since more than a year already.

"
Let's re-name this topic "Alex's Grand Unification of Various Global Meditation Methods"

"

No joke. I keep saying to myself, this all makes so much sense! But, um, now I gotta do all of it...

I received this email from an AFer in regards to what is being talked of here concerning 'affect' especially in this thread (and another one). I post it here as I also stand behind it. You may ignore it or take it on board as you see fit. I chose to post the unaltered email I received.

"Something heavily missing from the discussions about and definitions
of what constitutes 'affect' recently found on kfd is mention of the
instinctual passions. To consider affect as being merely a cognitive
distortion is insufficient for bringing about an actual freedom from
the human condition, as, simply put, what is required for extirpation
of that condition (which is the extirpation of the identity in toto -
self-extirpation) to take place is the recognition of its thoroughly
*passional* nature. 'i' am 'my feelings', at root, means that 'i'
('being') am the passions; without the passions, there is no 'me', and
without 'me' there are no passions. Further, as without the
instinctual passions, there is no emotion (the entirety of emotional
experience is rooted in the passions, and the experience of actuality
is entirely passionless, and thus emotionless), it is worth
understanding that all emotional experience is, without exception,
affective. Miss this, and whatever extirpation of 'affect' which may
take place will not be the extirpation which brings about an actual
freedom; rather, such 'self-extirpation' would be as much a distortion
of the term as what is meant by 'affect' is held to be, by current kfd
correspondents, a distortion of actual experience. Such an aberration
would not be the end of 'being'."

Alex can speak for himself, but my understanding of 'affect' agreed completely with what you posted. I understand affects not to be "cognitive" distortions, but "passional" distortions (distortions that themselves are 'me', 'mine', 'experienced-by-me', 'reacted-to-by-me', etc.). 'My' feelings, where "feelings" means something much broader than it does in everyday usage. And there is no 'me' apart from affects; anything that is 'me' is an affect by definition, and anything that is an affect is 'me' by definition. (i.e. e.g. 'experienced-by-me' is a different way of describing something that is 'me')

It does seem that my terminology and ways of using words is pretty idiosyncratic, so I advise everyone to make sure that, if they care to take on my terminology, they make sure they understand my terms in such a way that their understanding of them agrees with this email (and agrees with what AFers and other advanced practitioners are saying).

Thank you for sharing this, Nick. And of course a great tank you to the anonymous "secret chief" who is monitoring our progress.

I thought that I had mentioned instinctual passions a while ago, but it is a good reminder. This makes me think that we will also have to clarify the term "feeling" that falls with the broad category of affects, but can also mean something slightly different when used to translate the Pali term "vedana", namely a sensations experienced as being pleasant, unpleasant or neutral.

"Sense contact lead to feelings (vedana). Thus, the sensations feel pleasant, unpleasant or neutral. No problem so far. But then there is craving (tanha) for the pleasant (root of greed), avoidance of the unpleasant (root of hatred) and in some cases the experience both that leads to confusion, etc. This causes grasping or clinging (upadana), which is the "affect" we are talking about, giving an impression that these sensations and feelings are mine.

This leads to becoming (bhava), which is experienced as the arising of a sense of "me", "I". This then leads to the brith of the sense of self (Jati) or feeling "I AM". "

for what it's worth, i think 'the problem' arises before the 'craving'. if you look at D-O, the first step is ignorance - which is basically a lack of seeing clearly (lack of apperception). then comes volitional formations, and i think that's the first directly observable step... habitual volitional formations start sticking around on their own (consciousness, e.g. knot of affect on body). this consciousness then abrogates sensual contact (the next few steps in D-O), leading to a labeling of it as pleasant/unpleasant/neutral (vedana), which is then craved and then clung, etc...

when you apperceive, i don't think you follow D-O from the root (ignorance) but stop at vedana.. instead, ignorance simply doesn't arise in the first place.

however, when not apperceiving, different links of D-O can be focused on at. i find 8th jhana to be a good contrast for looking at formations. 7th jhana is good to look at vedana with equanimity (and there is a sutta which says that one can use equanimity and result in abiding in the 7th jhana). 6th seems to be good to look at clinging, and 5th to look at craving. (the finer the jhana, the earlier the D-O link)

note that this is just my interpretation.. i only offer it in case it proves useful to anyone.

"for what it's worth, i think 'the problem' arises before the 'craving'. if you look at D-O, the first step is ignorance - which is basically a lack of seeing clearly (lack of apperception). then comes volitional formations, and i think that's the first directly observable step... habitual volitional formations start sticking around on their own (consciousness, e.g. knot of affect on body). this consciousness then abrogates sensual contact (the next few steps in D-O), leading to a labeling of it as pleasant/unpleasant/neutral (vedana), which is then craved and then clung, etc...

when you apperceive, i don't think you follow D-O from the root (ignorance) but stop at vedana.. instead, ignorance simply doesn't arise in the first place.

however, when not apperceiving, different links of D-O can be focused on at. i find 8th jhana to be a good contrast for looking at formations. 7th jhana is good to look at vedana with equanimity (and there is a sutta which says that one can use equanimity and result in abiding in the 7th jhana). 6th seems to be good to look at clinging, and 5th to look at craving. (the finer the jhana, the earlier the D-O link)

note that this is just my interpretation.. i only offer it in case it proves useful to anyone. "

Right, ignorance is the fundamental problem. Once that goes, D-O is broken and suffering does not arise. I am curious though, how are you aware of vedana in the 7th jhana?

"Right, ignorance is the fundamental problem. Once that goes, D-O is broken and suffering does not arise. I am curious though, how are you aware of vedana in the 7th jhana? "

phenomenologically: in 5th jhana, i notice some pretty coarse sensations around the body/head area, which are being 'popped' pretty consistently. if i move to the 6th jhana, the coarseness drops away to reveal something more elemental that seemed to be supporting it.. and it's like a thinner film over stuff, though still kind of sticky. when i go to 7th, the sticky aspect drops away mostly, and it's just sensations, pleasant/unpleasant/neutral, which are still affective (they are in a particular place on the body - sense of 'space' - thus are 'real' and not actual). and when i go to 8th, i notice these pretty subtle, mostly-randomly-shaped things that kind of flicker in and out all over the body, which seem to spawn the things i noticed in the 7th jhana. thus i labeled them - clinging, craving, vedana, formations.

why do you ask? any tips would be appreciated =) (or details on what exactly you were focusing on in 7th jhana when you saw that opening)

"for what it's worth, i think 'the problem' arises before the 'craving'. if you look at D-O, the first step is ignorance - which is basically a lack of seeing clearly (lack of apperception). then comes volitional formations, and i think that's the first directly observable step... habitual volitional formations start sticking around on their own (consciousness, e.g. knot of affect on body). this consciousness then abrogates sensual contact (the next few steps in D-O), leading to a labeling of it as pleasant/unpleasant/neutral (vedana), which is then craved and then clung, etc...
"


Thank you, Beoman. But you will agree that, practically speaking, the main focus is still on physical sensations within the body to investigate everything that feels like "me" or "mine". In this sense volitional sensations are expressed and experienced through the body at the level of sensations and feelings (vedana) on the chain of D-O. The practice itself (apperception, attentiveness to sensuousness, direct mode, etc.) is then supposed to form the new habit of "looking clearly" that will gradually remove ignorance, the last fetter.

In this respect also, it is interesting to note that the Satipattana Sutta's main focus is precisely:

1st - Physical sensations
2nd - Sensations (feelings(vedana) experienced as being pleasant, unpleasant and neutral
3rd - Mind states, moods, passions, everything affective
4th - Dhammas (traditionally co-dependant origination, the 4 noble truths, the factors of enlightenment, the 5 aggregates of clinging, the fetters, etc.)

The first 3 Satipattanas boil around Howen's great advice "keep a thread of attention on the body during your entire conscious experience during the day. Get it to the point where you know if your first breath at wake up is an in-breath or an out-breath. Take that body awareness and begin to note and ground the emotions. Get honest. Really fracking honest about your self and your motivations. Anything that has the flavor of self needs to be investigated with the right view attained at the tipping point".

While 'Actualizing Jhanas' fall into the category of mindfulness of dhamma, the last Satipattana.

"
why do you ask? any tips would be appreciated =) (or details on what exactly you were focusing on in 7th jhana when you saw that opening)"

Initially I was also focusing on the sensations that implied certain aspects in the arupa jhanas. But then I saw that yes there were actual aspects that were just perspectives. The way the mind focused, either out into space, back on itself, then to nothingness, and then to signlessness. All of these 'seemed' to have sensations that were a part of them, but I ignored the sensations and paid attention to the clean actual quality of the perspectives and juxtaposed that quality with the flow of sensations that were a conditioning factor in the mental arising of 'being'.

That flow of sensations (at a chakra spot) would then seemingly get infected by the quality of 'actual' that the arupa perspectives gave off. Those sensations at a chakra spot would then shift to conveying the same quality, or the mind picked up on the actual inherent same quaility that was covered over by the mental sense of 'being'. This mental sense would drop away as a result. There was an angle, a way of looking, just the right way of looking that seemed to do this. Play around with it and see from different angles till you catch that very actual aspect of the arupa perspective then juxtapose it/mash it up next to the flow of sensations helping to prop up that sense of 'being'.

Funny enough, both Owen and myself were doing just this in the 7th jhana when we both found just the right way of looking that juxtaposed in just the right way to see being drop away for long periods, then once more for good.

Really get a sense of the clean actual quality of an arupa perspective. When you see it, move back and forth from that actual quality to the flow of sensations (chakra spot) with the intent to see that same quality in those sensations, thus cutting off the dulling filter of being.

Very good description, Nick.

Just back from formal sitting practice. Playing around with it from the 5th and 6th jhanas, I suddenly found what works for me, namely to practice with open eyes (in order to be able to do it as much as possible during the day), advert as deeply as possible to the actual aspect of the jhana and gradually include the sensations that still feel like "me" or "mine", as if flooding these small affective islands with infinite space, pure consciousness or nothingness.

What happens then is a kind of fusion of the two that erases the remaining sense of self. Everything becomes brighter, sharper, more intense and alive. There may be a "wow!" feeling at this stage that tends to abort it. But when we get used to it, the sense of self melts and nothing feels like me or mine. There there are no thoughts or emotions, but a sense of perfection and wonder. At this point we realize that something clicked, since the state becomes effortless.

At the present stage, moving too much get the "me" back. With practice I should be able to maintain it for longer periods or to quickly get back to it. Although the description may feel complicated it is in reality very simple. The only requirement is the ability to get quickly into a rather deep arupa jhana with open eyes.