Alex's experiment with the grounding of emotions

"Earlier today I saw some videos of Ayya Khema and she expressed very clearly that when one gets the urge to take a deep breath after the breath turns very fine in meditation, one should absolutely not take that deep breath. I speculated that this urge is a pure manifestation of the ego; the ego is loosing control, and is trying to regain it by taking that deep breath.

I did some sitting. From a certain moment in the sitting I had a very solid urge to take a deep breath located exactly at my solar plexus and this lasted throughout the sitting with some residual solidity still there as I write this. Without having given any serious thought to my earlier speculation about this urge being the ego, I checked online to see if the solar plexus chakra is related to the ego (I never remember all that stuff), and lo' and behold: it's the ego center. (Stian Gudmundsen Høiland, DhO)"

This post on DhO is talking about the same thing as I am when I say "solar plexus-doer". The feeling of wanting to move, wanting to inhale, basic dissatisfaction requiring some physical change or action to resolve it, does seem to emanate from here.

I don't know where boredom manifests, I haven't experienced that feeling for weeks (hopefully it's gone forever).

"
Your Zen teacher's method sounds excellent. Did he correct you if you thought you had the right understanding but he thought otherwise?
"


Since he lives in Japan, we didn't have much opportunity to see each other. He didn't like to interpret or argue about Zen literature, but the point is that the meaning must be absolutely obvious, without having to reflect and think about it. Same with Zen koans. Their meaning must be so obvious that they make you laugh. In this respect, 98% of what I read on the Internet about Zen koans shows that they don't get it, simply because they go on an on about finding meaning within the apparent logic of the exchange, missing the entire point.

I will see if I can also feel the sense of a *doer* around the throat and solar plexus. And yes, I mentioned boredom, but haven't experienced it for quite a while.

"Alex this point about investigating the "doer" is key for me too at this time. It is this investigation that, conducted well, leads me to regular experience of non-doing, of spontaneity, out-from-control, what I call "natural activity".

I've found while it's powerful to do this during sits it's especially effective during daily life (during sits I focus more on actualizing sensations/appreciating suchness). I investigate the resistance/reification complexes which compound as for me especially laziness or driveness-- basically I cultivate discernment between the illusion of effort (I must do this, I don't want to do this, I can do this if I push harder) and the bare sensations of movement (including the actual energy level of the body). It leads to a state of "being behind the activity", just relaxing and seeing how unobstructed the circuit can be between *seeing* and *doing* the next practical thing, all the while monitoring these obstructing sensations of effort/resistance. This leads reliably to glimpses of undistorted activity-- word deed and thought happening completely on their own without tension/effort/me. "


Very interesting. I will try. During three prior to awakening, I have been in this state of flow, where life goes on on its own without a doer, which shows again that, although rare, AF's goal is not new, but is just the next stage. In other words, the first permanent stage (technical 4th path) is marked by the dissolution of the ego or self-center, while the next (AF, complete enlightenment) involves the permanent vanishing of the remaining sense of self.

What worked today to trigger an EE in a grocery store was to realize that we often want to be somewhere else. Accepting the idea that the best place to be is "right here" and the best moment "right now" seems to be enough to (temporarily) dissolve the sense of self.

"Thank you Alex for you insightful and profound analysis!

Gratitude"


Thanks a lot, Antero. Although I feel like a little baby, learning how to walk amongst gown ups (colleagues who have already mastered what I am starting to discover).

"My first Zen Master didn't give me any instructions at all. I went into the Zendo, they brought me a cushion, I sat down, he smiled at me and I sat there for 2 hours. I moved when I felt to and with time the need to move disappeared and I sat there like all the other 50. I came back every day for 2 months. One day I talked to a student in the pause and he told me to watch my breath and stop thinking. From there I became confused about how exactly and what and why and stopped meditating.
20 years later I talked to the Master and he said: "Giving instructions is like a surgeon cutting into healthy flesh." To tell a mind about the mind from the position of an Ego is a difficult and fine art. I wonder where I would be if I would have never gotten any instructions and just kept on meditating Maybe "knower" and "doer" would have simply faded away.... or maybe not "


Haha, I feel the same way! Yet we are not like Asian practitioners who just sit without asking any questions.

I do this every morning now when I shower -- observe the actions of the hands and body, washing themselves. After about 10 seconds there is so obviously no "doer" that it is almost comical in contrast to having spent so many years "doing" everything. One of the very first insights I ever had was like this. After meditating on sensual phenomena, in this case stuff going on in my backyard at night, I got up to go inside and was shocked and surprised to be watching what appeared to be someone else's feet walking down the walk and up the back stairs. That "not me, not anyone" sense lasted for quite some time, then I wen to bed and woke up back in "Doer Land" the next morning.

I agree, Alex, none of this is new and these insights can pop up at any time, though I suspect they become far more valuable and repeatable after what we're calling technical 4th path. The way I see it it's just more vipassana, more investigation, into deeper and deeper aspects of existence and the perception of it, such that we eventually grok the true nature of mind and experience.

BTW - for a scientific/neurological basis for much of this (no knower, no doer) you should read the book - the first half at least - by David Eagleman titled Incognito:

www.sciambookclub.com/biology-books/neur...eman-1071117870.html

"
I do this every morning now when I shower -- observe the actions of the hands and body, washing themselves. After about 10 seconds there is so obviously no "doer" that it is almost comical in contrast to having spent so many years "doing" everything. "

Yes, indeed it sometimes prompts 'laugherless' laughter hahaha

I also like the idea of "tagging" specific daily acts with the investigation. That works for any practice of course.

In fact this no-doership was one of the regular insights that arose since my first a&p, (I called it "letting walking walk, letting talking talk", and so on-- mostly letting the guitar play itself). Indeed it's the consistency with which such subtle inquiry can be conducted that seems to increase with the lasting transformations such as SE and 4th path.

"
BTW - for a scientific/neurological basis for much of this (no knower, no doer) you should read the book - the first half at least - by David Eagleman titled Incognito:

www.sciambookclub.com/biology-books/neur...eman-1071117870.html

"



Thanks I will check, and try your method

"Just sit and know that '˜you are' the '˜I am' without words, nothing else has to be done; shortly you will arrive to your natural Absolute state". "Remain focused on the '˜I am' till it goes into oblivion" (Nisargadatta Maharaj)

"You have to keep a sharp focus for a prolonged period on the '˜I am'. You have to do this repeatedly; in fact this is the '˜Sadhana' (practice). What will be the outcome of all this? A moment will come when the '˜I am' will disappear and you
will end up in your true natural state" (Pradeep Apte, Nisargadatta Gita)

From his description of his state, I am pretty sure that Nisargadatta lived without any sense of self. His method is pretty straightforward as it involes observing the sense of self (the feeling of existence 'I am') until it dissapears.

At this stage I wonder if doing just that (using the arupa jhanas to highlight subtle aspects of the sense of self) would not be sufficient to put a final end to the illusion of self. This seems that this is basically what Tarin, Kenneth and Nikolai did, at least towards the end of the journey.

Alex,

This is the direction I seem to be headed in as well. Check out my journal entry from yesterday...
I found that if you observe the feeling sense door and then bring up the witness, you can actually see the sense of being shift up from the body to the witness. From there it is only a matter of seeing how the I AM is not really separate from consciousness but is merely another appearance within it. When you see that, duality collapses.

"
At this stage I wonder if doing just that (using the arupa jhanas to highlight subtle aspects of the sense of self) would not be sufficient to put a final end to the illusion of self. "

When juxtaposing the sense of 'being' with say, the actual aspect of space of the 5th jhana, I would mash the two aspects up together by widening the mind's focus to include the both of them until the sense of 'being' dropped of its own accord due to the actuality underlying it (sensations) taking centre stage next to the actual aspect of space.

Another way I practiced was by just watching the mental sense of 'being' with the mind partly on its physical trigger and mostly on it mental felt sense. I would just watch with the attitude that it would eventually drop away (the mental felt sense). It was how I observed the annica characteristic inherent in it. Eventually it would drop away then rise again, and I would repeat the watching of it with the simple expectation that it would drop away. What this seemed to do was disconnect the part of the mind that seemed to feed or cling to the sense of 'being' and keep it flowing.

You could do this with any of the characteristics. With the anatta characteristic, just watch the sense of 'being' with the attitude that it is impersonal. Watch with the idea in the forefront of mind that it is arising without any help from 'me'. Or the dukkha characteristic which I did as well. Just watch the sense of 'being' carefully with the attitude that it is cause for so much mental misery. This is not to say that one turns that sense of 'being' into a mass of felt misery, because this is a possible danger . But rather it is an affectless recognition of the dukkha the sense of 'being' has participated in (as one of the 5 hinderances for example) and it is just looking at it from the point of view in the forefront of the mind with that recognition.

By taking the viewpoint of each of the 3 C's while observing 'being', the disconnect of the clinging part of the mind will let 'being' drop away repeatedly. This may well greese the wheels when moving towards continuous apperceiving as all it takes for 'being' to drop away is to call up one of the 3 C's in the forefront of the mind. Do this continuously non-stop 24/7 when awake, coupled with moving the mind towards apperception (recognising it via a variety of techniques eg. HAIETMOBA, actualizing jhanas), will eventually result in an 'out from controlness' of the actualizing of 'being'. From what I've been told and what I experienced myself, the deed should be done days shortly after this stage.

@Adam, check the HP forum for updates.

@Nick - this is great advice. All this is becoming more and more natural and it is starting to become difficult to find a sense of self. The anatta door works like a charm.

"Alex,

This is the direction I seem to be headed in as well. Check out my journal entry from yesterday...
I found that if you observe the feeling sense door and then bring up the witness, you can actually see the sense of being shift up from the body to the witness. From there it is only a matter of seeing how the I AM is not really separate from consciousness but is merely another appearance within it. When you see that, duality collapses.
"


Perfect! Here we are using the 6th Jhana / Witness. This seems to be of the methods used intuitively by Nisargadatta.

Speaking about Nisargadatta, trying to get into a deep 5th Jhana through the 1st Jhana up, I failed to feel 'Piti'. I flew down through a vortex and fell in a dark bottomless pit. And then, there was absolutely no sense of self, no sense of space, or time and of course no thoughts or emotions. Looking back on it, it must have been the state of 'Turiya' or waking sleep Advaita Vedanta Jnanis talk about. What would it be in Buddhist terms?

Dunno, but do you have a reason to think that this wasn't very strong absorption in e.g. 7th jhana?

Piti is of course minimal in the first two jhanas if your concentration isn't reasonable at that point.

"Dunno, but do you have a reason to think that this wasn't very strong absorption in e.g. 7th jhana?

Piti is of course minimal in the first two jhanas if your concentration isn't reasonable at that point."


Sounds like a good guess. I must have slipped directly into a solid 7th Jhana.

As far as I can tell Advaitists call:
- the 4th and/or 6th Jhana -> the Witness
- the 5th Jhana -> the Void
- the 7th -> Turiya
- and EEs, PCEs and in some cases nirodha samapatti -> nirvikalpa samadhi and sahaja samadhi when it arises spontaniously

" I flew down through a vortex and fell in a dark bottomless pit. And then, there was absolutely no sense of self, no sense of space, or time and of course no thoughts or emotions."

Alex, the entry point/action you describe is not quite right, but the words you're using do sound suspiciously like Nirodha Samapatti. Have you ever experienced that before this? Where was the vortex you describe in terms of your visual field?

Interesting timing - I just hit some dark vortex today straight out of the third eye area - what was bizarre though is that I was listening to music with my headphones on, trying to pay extremely close attention to the sounds arise and as the vortex was enveloping the rest of experience, the music was still there. Has anyone tried doing NS with headphones on? I'm guessing this wasn't NS since aural phenomena was still there.

"

Alex, the entry point/action you describe is not quite right, but the words you're using do sound suspiciously like Nirodha Samapatti. Have you ever experienced that before this? Where was the vortex you describe in terms of your visual field?"


Hi Chris,
I cannot exclude that neither. If I remember well I was testing a method of contemplative prayer for a student. Deep silence came strait away. I then deepened the trance with a falling scenario (feeling that I was a rock falling down at the bottom of the ocean). I then focused around the heart area with a feeling of love for God (this is basically the method of 14th century spiritual classic 'The Cloud of Unkowing').

At this point it felt like falling down in empty space and was absolutely out of control. The vortex -but it was more like a dark empty pit- was below me until "me" vanished into nothingness. Whatever of me remained to be able to describe it wasn't unconscious, but there was just a tiny thread of awareness in what felt more like the absolute rest of deep sleep. Reflecting on it, it felt pretty much like Anadi's description of "The Beyond" or "Absolute Rest" considering also that the entry point was identical, sinking down below, etc. And matched the description of Turiya that I got from my Advaita teacher/friend Rajiv. I will ask him.

Yet, in Buddhist terms, I don't know how it fits with Nirodha Samapatti, because I never trained it, nor have I tried to experience it voluntarily. But I can't exclude it, since one is supposd to reach it from nothingness (7th jhana), unless mistaken.

"
Speaking about Nisargadatta, trying to get into a deep 5th Jhana through the 1st Jhana up, I failed to feel 'Piti'. I flew down through a vortex and fell in a dark bottomless pit. And then, there was absolutely no sense of self, no sense of space, or time and of course no thoughts or emotions. Looking back on it, it must have been the state of 'Turiya' or waking sleep Advaita Vedanta Jnanis talk about. What would it be in Buddhist terms?




"

I think I know which experience you're talking about, Alex. And yes, I think it has something to do with what Aziz (Anadi) Kristof's description of Being/Absolute. This state occurs for me most often when I deliberately direct attention to the stillness at the lower belly (i.e. dantien, or hara). There is a felt stillness-energy (or, being) that is not affected by the movements or quality of the breath. If the energy center at the lower belly opens, attention drops through. If one is focused enough, this "dark bottomless pit" is experienced.

It is possible from this place to remain open at the dantien and "wake up" (open), pass through other energy centers, and then rest there (e.g. the third-eye and solar plexus). One may learn to rest (paradoxically) as both absent and present, both detached and intimate, both still/unchanging and moving/changing.

It seems that the more I get in tune with the body's subtle energies and how to use them, the easier it is to access and explore states like this.

"

Yet, in Buddhist terms, I don't know how it fits with Nirodha Samapatti, because I never trained it, nor have I tried to experience it voluntarily. But I can't exclude it, since one is supposd to reach it from nothingness (7th jhana), unless mistaken.
"

There seem to be two types of NS. The NS that many in the pragmatic dharma crowd talk of that is the one yogis at technical 3rd path gain access to. This seems more like another door to cessation/fruition in my own experience. A darkening sinking type absorption that may end , if taken all the way, in a cessation.

Upon getting the last shift, I was told to check what came after the 8th jhana by just directing it to a 9th. The other NS , in my own experience practicing the AF approach to jhanas and current access, seems closer to the NS or saññā-vedayita-nirodha of the suttas, the cessation of feeling and perception/ideation, depending on how you read and interpret 'vedaita' and 'sanna'. It could be interpreted to fit the pragma NS or this other NS myself and others have experienced.

Edit: I have not had any access to the fruition type darkening sinking absorption NS nor any absorption for the past 3 weeks.

This other type of NS is conscious. It now occurs without much preperation. No need to go up the 8 jhanas. I can direct the mind directly there sort of, I direct it to the 8th then to whatever comes after it, from there there is no control. Certain things just turn off. What is left is consciousness as far as I can tell without any objects being perceived. Hard to describe. There is no cessation at all involved. It seems easier to do when sitting or lying. When walking it might get difficult as the natural inclination of the mind and body is to stop what they're doing.

There are no absorption qualities to any of the jhanas now as what needed to become absorbed (sense of 'being'), seems to no longer be arising anymore, at least in the past 3 weeks thus far. There are only the perspectives of the jhanas that can be accessed. The 8th jhana is now seen as a very relaxing perspective where there is neither any object taken as object nor is there any intentional ignoring of objects. It is a signless perspective. Neither perceiving objects nor not perceiving them. When I move to the 9th perspective (the other NS) from the 8th, that subtle perspective of perception nor no perception drops away and there is none of that teetering on perceiving an object or not. There is just no perceiving and no thinking and a lack of any ability to discern what is what as something has been thoroughly turned off, but there is no cessation.

Pre-last shift, after receiving instructions on how to do it, I attempted and was successful at having this experience via the AF approach to jhanas which can be read about on the HP blog. After getting to the 8th via this method, let all the senses unfocus and maybe do some deep anapana until the breathing might stop by itself. Resolve to experience the 9th jhana beforehand without expecting the usual idea of what NS is. See what happens. Many yogis got release this way in the pali suttas it seems.

"The other NS , in my own experience practicing the AF approach to jhanas and current access, seems closer to the NS or saññā-vedayita-nirodha of the suttas, the cessation of feeling and perception/ideation, depending on how you read and interpret 'vedaita' and 'sanna'. It could be interpreted to fit the pragma NS or this other NS myself and others have experienced."

Hi Nik,

Something about your description of the "other" NS seems to really resonate with me. Would you be able to point me to some of the Suttas that describe saññā-vedayita-nirodha? I may have more questions about it after reading it, and you seem to have a good handle on this stuff.

Also, I'm glad to hear that your practice has been so fruitful this year. You seem to be doing really well, which makes me happy

Jackson